Dear Sony- Shadowknight Tank struggling to hold threat, Any Suggestions?

As a paladin i agree, my agro relies on amend and sceal of heroism. So my agro is quite independant of my gear. My group AAs are 100% oriented for better aggro holding, but it won't be enough without the masssive transferts my class do have.
So i feel lucky cause i can hold agro even with HM geared dps, while being in rygor.
The situation is totally different for Sks or other tanks, many must rely too much on their damage, it pushes them to do crazy things : using a 2 hander, being in offensive stance (since level ~30-40 i never even purchased an offensive stance updgrade, not even the adept version ... simply because my mitigation and my hate is much better in def).
According to me the hate values on taunts are too small, may be we miss taunt double cast and taunt flurries ...
I have often been in groups in which "smart" dps were holding back their dps (someone mentionned taking aggro even using auto attack lately). Yeah sadly it can happen, but what happen more often is the situation of low IQ raid dps that open any fight with his favorite raid type sequence. Then he will blame that tank, forgetting that his raid tank is buffed with a coercer, receives massive transferts, is adorned from feet to head with hate modifiers etc ....
As a dps evaluating a tank gear is easy, just look as his hps. If you have more than him/she you should (unless the tank is a paladin) dps slowly and progressibely on first pull to see how aggro is moving.

hit rates.. my personal pain.
I have personally had as low as a 38% melee hit rate.
I've had my absolute high hit rate as 91% in raids.
Here are my current stats. 751 slashing 38% strikethru 8% accuracy (SELF BUFFED)
i tanked tower x2 2 days ago and i checked my hit rate. 75% Group was sk,troub,illy,def,ranger, wiz
That group i fully admit does not debuff defensive stats at all.. But i seriously don't think i should be missing THAT much in such an easy zone. And looking at ACT the non hits were all blocks.. which the strikethru stat should have taken care of. BUTTTTTT, it didn't hence my post.
I do believe though if someone tells me i'm missing or getting blocked on my autoattack because i suck.. i do think i might strangle that person.

Rosss@Everfrost wrote:

This is why Crusaders need to have 277 AA.... I am actually suprised that poster above would say low AA but high gear is OK to tank with, when it really should be high AA and high gear, but high AA and medium gear would be OK to start off as OT.

Zealous SmiteRank (*/1)
Heroic 2 point
Requires Requires 48 points in Heroic
Requires 275 points spent gobally

Zealous Smite inflicts crushing damage upon the target encounter and cures the crusader's allies. This spell cannot be resisted. This spell can be cast while under control effects.

TargetEnemy
Power161
Casting2.0 seconds
Recast1 minute
RangeUp to 25.0 meters
Effect Radius25.0 meters

Effects:

• Inflicts 3342 - 6121 crusing damage on target encounter
• Dispels 99 levels of any hostile effects on group members (AE)

Even if your hit rate is low in a tofs x2 run, I bet you still didn't have any issues with threat.

Nrgy wrote:

Take a close look.. 1 minute recast is an eternity. We are talking EM raids right. I have NEVER been on a hard mode X4 but by then the point about AA is moot.. everyone is 277+..
Since I am not raiding with ubers.. I have run into a EM raids where the tanks had better AA and crapier gear and the result was a mess.
Eveything is important but in tank land you need the best posisble gear and ideally yes full AA.. its why I will never seriously play my SK or my Zerker. Raises the whole gear thing to an insane level..
but seriously.. for tanks.. AA will not make up for bad gear.. won't happen.

Bauglir wrote:

60 second recast turns into less than 45 (with a minimum casting speed of 30) by the time self buffed Casting speed is added that you're unable to reforge. Add in any raid buffs you might get by accident and you are well under that 60 seconds. This AA ability can be cast under just about any condition such as; stun, fear, daze and charm (iirc), it carries a group wide cure that effects all hostile effects (not curses) and it can be cast ON THE RUN. The damage on it is effected by both Pot and CB and yes it can, and usually does, Crit. It hits ENCOUNTER mobs for some serious damage. When a crusader tank says "Charging in 5", this ability goes a long way in establishing initial aggro and even more when accompanied with SK'd Furor (+20% spell damage) and a quick Harmtouch. It is a spike in aggro that even the DPS will have to work to catch up too by which time the threat buttons or other high hate abilities can be used (Grave Sac).
No raiding guild is going to have undergeared fighters trying to be raid tanks, EM or HM. Fighter gear "feels" like it drops more often than anything else, maybe becasue raids are only carrying 2 to 4 fighters a session. Gearing up an OT or a replacement tank is done in a matter of days not weeks, if the raiding guild cares to focus on it. I discount the whole notion of undergeared Main tanks. Undergeared OT's will gear up quickly, but even without the gear can still act like a tank when the situations call for it, ie. the MT goes down but will be back up and back in position by the time you can count to 5.
AA, along with Adornments, AA setup and rotation, are the only things that a fighter needs to concentrate on (pre-raid gear must be assumed). Any fighter not coming to the table with the proper tools will fail long before they are asked to be the MT. IMO, there is NOT excuse for a fighter that deems themselves a Tank to have an empty toolbox.
Raids are NOT the place to gain AA, at least not the ones below the basic amount to actually have tools in your toolbox, sorry.

Nrgy wrote:

So your saying a crusader is not a tank until they have zealous smite?? ermm for me it hits anywhere between 70-90k ish
I must have missed something.. Thats, errrmm 1 scout flurry. Are you agreeing with me in a really weird way?

Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:

I DO agree with your position on the oversight of SOE to scale threat from abilities that were added more than two years ago, since one year ago they tripled the DPS factors and ignored forgot to do the same to threat abilities. This issue has been addressed many times in the past in several other threads.
A Crusader is not a Tank until they decide to be a Tank and until they decide to be a Tank they are only a fighter, and a poor DPSer. A level 10 fighter can be a Tank just as easily as a level 90 fighter. The decision involves being consciously competent in what the fighter has decided to do, which it Tank. That means Gear, that means AA, that means techniques, that means encounter knowledge, that means Adornments, that means group makeup, the list goes on and on. These are things that DPS and Utility classes do not need to care about, although they should at least try to smooth the curve.
So, do I think a crusader needs Zealous Smite to be considered a Tank? My answer is, I think they need 277+ AA to have the tools to be able to do the job they decided to do. That sounds similar to a "Yes", but it is really a "Why wouldn't they have it already". And I do concur with the 70 - 90k hit and sometimes even more.
Zealous Smite is not the epiphany which makes a Crusader a Tank, but that ability is sure a nice tool to put into the Tanks toolbox. I wouldn't leave home w/o it. When I say a Crusader w/o ZS isn't a Tank, it is not becasue of the ability itself as much as it is that the Crusader has not yet "decided" to be a Tank (becasue they have < 277 AA).

Really? ZS is mediocre at best. Yeah you can cast it on the run, yeah if for some reason you just happen to have detriments that the healers didn't get doing their job it will cure them. The damage is on the low end when you compare it to what a DPSer is putting out though.
Manawall is a tank weapon, but due to everything having power drains it is a poor one.
Soulclaim is an awesome tank weapon for heroic due to the build up of CB for the group and in some raid encounters the power regen can been very significant.
Its simple. SKs do not have a siphon like some tanks and have less in taunts than other tanks. They are a class that was designed around DPS being more important for their agro than any other Fighter along with Zerkers. What DoV did was cripple that type of play style compared to what it was in the past and they haven't gotten around to fixing things...just like the survivability and snap capability of a SK too.
Really the class needs another update to catch up with current mechanics.

Bruener wrote:

Dude.. i get where your coming from. But you know that won't happen. ("SK'S ARE OP!! are all over these forums) Ask for small things.. the things that are honestly important. Point out specific examples and ask for things that make sense and i think you will be suprised.
I would honestly.. be happy just having my auto attack hit the mobs. (i'm an sk)
Now, this problem is the same for all tanks.. Before you go off on a tangent about monks myth buff. They still have hit rate troubles.
Now, the point im going to make here is... hit rates are hurting tanks in all gear ranges all tank types and all mob ranges.
Since it changes the entire game.. make it skill based.. reintroduce some new heroic ops with hit rate temp rewards..
Make people WORK together to get that buff, and you also solve your problem of tanks soloing heroic content.

hell theres all sorts of stuff you do.. hit a 4 part ho and you get a groupwide stoneskin..
hit a 3 part and you debuff the mob by something special..
hit this 2 part.. and your group gets a physical mit buff
hit this 4 part and you get a temp 20 sec 100% ae auto

i mean .. it has to be cool effects.. or it will be pointless.
Because people WILL complain if you give certain classes abilities.. give it to everyone through skill and teamwork! imo anyways.

Make skill mean something again.. instead of a gear check..

While the above ideas are good, they are simply a bandaid on the wound. I know everyone likes to see a high parse, but tanks aren't suppose to be good dps. If they were, then why have dps classes? Tanks are for holding aggro and taking a beating.
There is a similar post to this in the serk forum. The ideas i posted there were to make taunts be at a 3 to 1 ratio to damage, or simply make taunts (ca's and procs) work off your ma. I feel these would help take care of most of the aggro issues and shouldn't be a difficult fix.

I also think that a fighter should be able to spec to a somewhat dps spec, but then basically be a very poor tank. With AAs in their current state that isnt an option. First of all, fighters have to spec dps just to help with aggro. Second, there isnt enough seperation between the specs. There needs to be a more difinitive line. This goes for a lot of classes actually....But if a fighter specs total tank, they should have very low dps, very high hps and hate generation. The opposite for dps spec...higher dps, lower hps and some form of detaunt.