Group Cures: If CC durations aren’t reduced to a cap of 3-5 sec I would like to see it stay at 20 seconds. However if CC is balanced then group cures need to be at 30-40 sec recast so mages aren’t disadvantaged over scouts. Shamans: Are terrible PVP healers. Lets not lie about it. I understand that the current “balance” is due to the PVE nature of wards, reactives and HoT’s, but now that we have a clean slate and a chance to make things amazing again. I would really like to see some love for people that would like to heal on one of the other four healer classes which in their current form are little better than chain/plate buff-bot backup healers. I really appreciate the changes to PVP live servers at the moment where Clerics and Shamans have normalized casting times of their group ward/reactive to 3.0 sec instead of the PVE 5.0. This makes sense, however these changes didn’t go to TLE for some reason. Please, bring back normalized casting times for healers on PVP TLE. This should also include single target heals. Wardens currently are on twice the casting speed with better recast, that’s not right. Let’s do some numbers Note: numbers were taken from current TLE PVP server with pvp box checked when available and Focus Effects included when available for a spell. [Defiler] Carrion Warding (42) GMaster 5.0 casting / 15 sec recast / 1855 ward [Inquisitor] Malevolent Diatribe (42) GMaster +Focus 5.0 casting / 15 sec recast / 2736 heal [Warden] Healstorm (42) GMaster + Focus 3.0 casting / 12 sec recast / 7886 heal [Fury] Autumn’s Kiss (42) GMaster + Focus 3.0 casting / 12 sec recast / 8892 heal So for the same mana cost, nearly HALF the casting time and 3 seconds shaved off the recast… the druid gets to potentially heal for 4-5 TIMES that of a shaman. There’s a similar trend with group direct heals: [Defiler] Wild Accretion (28) Master 3.0 casting / 9 sec recast / 2676 heal [Inquisitor] Alleviation (28) Master 3.0 casting / 6 sec recast / 2676 heal [Warden] Winds of Healing (28) Master 1.5 casting / 7.5 sec recast / 3120 heal Again - - for the same power, less recast and half the cast time the warden is getting more healing. However when we look at single target healing things seem a little less crazy; [Defiler] Ancient Shroud (42) GMaster + Focus 2.0 casting / 6 sec recast / 1158 heal [Inquisitor] Penance (42) GMaster 2.0 casting / 6 sec recast / 1065 heal [Warden] Photosynthesis (42) GMaster + Focus 2.0 casting / 6 sec recast / 1278 heal This seems a little more realistic. Would it be earth-shatteringly terrible for healers to have somewhat even casting / recast (at least in PVP)? I would settle for even HALF the power druids get. Reduced casting / recast times would also even out in later expansions with clerics and shamans getting the same proc rates off group heal as druids (not more) and less benefit from casting speed buffs. Also with the revival of old-school CC durations, group PVP is going to be even more difficult for healers. Suggested buffs : Defiler Bane of Warding (40) - Increase ward or proc rate in PVP (Make it actually worth casting) Carrion Warding (42) - 3.0 sec casting, increased ward amount in PVP (from 5.0) Wild Accretion (42) - 2.0 sec casting (from 3.0) Dire Balm (43) - 1.0 sec casting (from 2.0) Sacrificial Restoration (46) - 2.0 sec casting (from 3.0) Shroud of Armor (47) - Improve passive ward amount Maelstrom (50) - Dramatically increase HoT and/or reduce recast/power cost (it will get cured from enemy team fast anyway, current form is USELESS) Mystic Umbral Warding (42) - 3.0 sec casting, increased ward amount in PVP (from 5.0) Transcendence (42) - 2.0 sec casting (from 3.0) Prophetic Ward (43) - Reduce Recast or buff ward Rejuvenation (43) - 1.0 sec casting time (from 2.0) Lunar Attendant (45) - Make immune to AoE and increase healing in PVP Ritual Healing (46) - 2.0 sec casting (from 3.0) Ruinic Armor (47) - Increase passive ward amount Oberon (50) - Reduce power cost in PVP Inquisitor Might need to improve or reduce the cost of abilities like Fanaticism (50) and Act of War (49) to help make them the viable melee DPS group healer. With reduced casting speed they will be more viable than shamans anyway with plate armor. Alleviation (42) - 2.0 sec casting (from 3.0) Malevolent Diatribe (42) - 3.0 sec casting (from 5.0) Ministration (43) - 1.0 sec casting time (from 2.0) Fanatical Healing (46) - 2.0 sec casting (from 3.0) Templar Holy Intercession (42) - 3.0 sec casting (from 5.0) Word of Redemption (42) - 2.0 sec casting (from 3.0) Meliorate (43) - 1.0 sec casting time (from 2.0) Restoration (46) - 2.0 sec casting (from 3.0) Healing Fate (48) - Essentially useless, maybe make it under 50% hp? I appreciate your time for reading this and I sincerely hope that you will be able to help balance Clerics and Shamans in PVP with the God-Mode Druids. Thanks, A Long-Time PVP Druid Veteran For reference: My TSO Warden PVP Video
As a person who doesn't want to play one of the OP druids, this is my biggest concern at the moment, as I remember the cast times ruining my PvP experience.on the shaman/clerics. Thanks
Ward potency means nothing if you can't finish the cast with 5 second casting times. You have either never played a cleric/shaman or maybe plan on rolling an unopposed-druid? Interrupts and old-school CC will mean anything over 3 seconds is impossible. Please remember with no AA and no casting speed on gear this TLE PVP server will be a completely different game from live. Take your PVE suggestions elsewhere thank you,
i agree 100% but then you have to think about all them spells that take longer than 3's to cast should all spell/ca have base casting speed of 3s ? yes because cc are back good and proper.
How many other classes get spells longer than 3 seconds? Warlock get one or two and Wizzard with Ice Comet. I'm OK with these being buffed as well as mages are going to have a rough time with scouts hitting so hard. My main focus of this thread was healers in group PVP... if a defiler can't get his almost useless group ward off the whole group dies...if a wizzard gets interrupted casting ice comet the whole group will be alright.
Even if you have some kind of 'God Guardian' in your group you still must deal with interrupts and CC. Most classes have 1-3 AoE CC or interrupt. Illusionists have a 5 second GROUP stifle on a 20 sec recast. Yes... 25% of the time you will be stifled with or without taunts (I hope this gets nerfed). I suggest you roll a shaman on TLE PVP beta right now like I have and go experience some group pvp like I have, then if you still feel they don't need casting speed adjustment come back and tell me all about it, I'd be happy to hear it. In the meantime please don't ruin any chance we might get at some balances.
Nobody is asking for un-interruptable casting, 3 sec casting time is more than long enough to interrupt as you just said. Obviously nobody is getting 100% casting speed anytime soon so lets not bring that up again either please. Maybe, you had "hundreds" of "pvp" fights where you casting 5 sec spells was no problem (I'd love to know which group of bots you've been fighting) but you would have healed for a tiny percent of what my warden can heal for. Please stop derailing this thread with requests for exponential ward increases, it's not going to happen. Be realistic.
Please point out where I asked for 2.5 sec Group Ward? Like I said before, you clearing aren't playing a shaman on beta so stop posting in here.
Well ignoring Sheep's vomit of worthless posts on this thread I found this an incredibly eye opening read. It definitely needs to be addressed. The Druid healing numbers are off the charts. I'm not sure I support equalizing all of the healing classes to be basically the same statistically (equal cast times, power, and heals). At minimum a point of balance needs to be struck. If your heals are going to take that long they need to be substantially more effective than their counterparts, or the druid heals need to be scaled back significantly as a baseline I've always felt the game's bias towards non-casters was boiled down to casting bars being pushed back on damage, as there is no countering mechanic for it. You get to repeatedly take damage and that damage ALSO causes you to be unable to damage back? I feel for you with the 5 second casts, our defiler can't cast anything before he goes down. This definitely makes me look at my recent level 50 pvp experiences in a different light. I was attributing things to the typical scout advantage eq2 has always had as my leveling group is all mages, but this explains a few things.
All someone has to do is try to cast a 5 sec ward a few times in a group PvP fight to understand the sheer frustration as you watch your group members go down.....while you are interrupted/knocked down/stifled/mezzed; AND the druid on the enemy team is pumping out heals as fast as a toddler eats candy. Even in PvE this was one of biggest things I could not understand about the game. Why do Clerics/Shamans have such long cast times and provide the same basic healing as druids with "half" the cast times?
Yea shamans are in a tough spot another fix would be for PVP is some sort of damage reduction? The issue is 4 out of 6 priests are not viable options for PVP with out severly handicapping the group. One bandaid fix could be increasing NPC damage out put and raising the heals on Shamens and Clerics to be in line with druids.
Thanks for the input guys, if you know anyone that was brave enough to play shaman during beta please ask them to join in here and add to the feedback. I'm loving the PVE side of defiler but the PVP is a total joke. From what I can see the only people playing shamans currently are doing it to keep their spot in high-end raid guilds.
Group HoTs have high healing potential but it's spread out across the group, whereas group wards can be used entirely on 1 or 2 people (like in 2vX or solo), and in that case a boosted group ward could be too powerful. Basically, you can use a group ward as a single target ward in a lot of situations, so that is something that has to be considered. If we boosted the group ward up to 8k to match a fury's group HoT, it could also be used as a 8k single target ward. I've heard people in the past mention turning the group ward in PvP into a bunch of smaller wards applied individually to each group member, but that idea has a lot of faults too.
I agree, an 8k group ward would be too strong. At this point I'd settle for maybe a 4k group ward with 3 sec casting speed, the main deterrent for not using this solo or 2v2 would be power cost and the casting time. Currently a 5 sec cast in a 2v2 is just impossible, 3 secs would be difficult depending on who you fight. I think splitting a group ward into, say, 1,100 per-person-ward in the group is a great idea...but I'm not sure how that would be to implement. Also must remember that cleric group reactives work in the same way and can trigger all 13 reactives on one person, so if wards get a bump and a rework reactives will need the same. Another option would be to add a group heal when the ward breaks (exactly like the defiler group ward AA in TSO?) this would only heal a certain amount per-person and stay balanced in smaller fights.
Having played high-end T9 PVP on both a Defiler and Templar for about 3 years, I have something to say as well. In the current state of beta, there is no reason why any PVP group should run without a 2 druid setup. With the current mechanics, clerics will not be viable before T7 and shamans around T9. This is obviously due to Templars Steadfast (T7) and the capped casting speed (T9) As currently pointed out in this thread, there will be almost no chance to land a group reactive or ward, versus any skilled group. Balancing all healers for PVP will be impossible, but something should be done to even it out.
Exactly, but even at T9 druids are still the far superior PVP healers. We don't need another repeat of KoS - TSO where you were better off with 1 tank and 5 dps than taking a shaman into a fight. I don't think they will manage a proper balance before live but I remain hopeful. Druid on standby.... Ps - DBG, it would be great if you could acknowledge these issues with the next dev update. <3
I don't agree with the fact that T9 druids are far superior, compared to shamans and clerics. I think the major issue is T1-T6 for Cleric and T1-T8 for Shaman. I also played a T9 Warden and between Templar, Warden and Defiler, these are all fairly well balanced in late game PVP. I would definitely not recommend DBG to make any changes that will have an effect beyond these mentioned tiers.
I am not a healer... IMO what should be done though is make sure each healer is viable in its own way and brings something to the table that the others dont. Something important for each of them in their own right. I know thats broad.. but I am not a healer but I do feel your pain and its very evident even from a scout point of view that shamans got shafted.
An informative read! Thank you daarkstar. I love having a shammy in group to eat up spike damage, but never as a main/solo healer. Hopefully they arn't forever destined to be overlooked.
I forgot to mention that my view on the end-game T9+ balance is from a 6v6 group setup perspective. I think this is the way the game should be balanced. I haven't played for about 12 months, but before I left, I was by many considered one of the best group PVP healers. I was mentioned in numerous threads, that was asking for a Shaman/Defiler nerf. What has changed since then? Don't get me wrong. Shaman is the worst solo healing class available, but in a stacked group, they are excellent healers.
