Consolidated List of Broken Guardian Stuff II

It looks like it's time to make our very own "Consolidated List of Broken Guardian Stuff II". The old list is just too outdated.
Red issues major problemsYellow issues moderate problemsGreen issues minor problems
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Issue I
Problem:
The Guardian mythical just doesn't cut it. Used to be unique and nice before the STA-line nerf
Solution:
Increase the proc amounts or give us something useful
Some ideas to bring the Guardian mythical to par:
• Increase the damage and damage absorption component on the proc, or rewrite the absorption to be a permanent stat
• Add an effect that encourages Guardians to dual wield, and still get to use shield combat arts (Block, Tower of Stone)
• Add an effect that encourages Guardians to use a shield, by increaseing weapon damage
Issue II - Combat Arts
• Sentry Watch - Increase duration
• Taunting Assault - Lower the cast time to be in-line with other abilities
Issue III - Fighter AA
• Consummate Defender - Change it to increase all the bonuses of the defensive stance, to make it at least a little attractive.
• Riposte Mastery - Change it to something, anything worth taking by fighters
Issue IV - Warrior AA
• Executioner's Fury - Worthless. It would be (more) useful if the effect did not dispel• Dragoon's Reflex - Not useful, since it forces the Guardian do to nothing, damage wise. Change it to decreases attack speed/casting speed while active.
• Gladiator's Revenge - The shield block associated with this ability is too small. Ten points nets us only 12% block chance. Increase this to 2.5% block change per point for a total of 25% with ten points spent. How come we have 27% block chance for fifteen points and Paladin's have 39% block chance for six points?
• Unshakeable - The mitigation associated with this ability is too small. Ten points gives us only 500 mitigation? Change to increases effectiveness of worn armour
• Arena Endurance - Worthless. Redesign or increase amounts
• Absorbing Blows - Worthless. Redesign or change to control effects and increase amounts
• Veteran's Shielding - 5% physical mitigation bonus to the defensive stance was good long ago, not anymore. 10-15% physical mitigation bonus to the defensive stance would be (more) in line
• Cry of the Warrior - Make the ability land much easier and please look into fixing it as it does not lock the mob for the full eight seconds of the ability as it is supposed to when used
Issue V - Guardian AA
• Got your Back - It's just not needed• Block - Remove the dispel on CA cast, like the Stonewall and Gut Roar, or remove the casting time from it completely
• Enhanced: Unyielding Will - Allow for lower recast rate(currently caps at 450seconds), mulitple triggers, etc.
• Hateful Assault - This ability is worthless unless the cast time of the skill is lowered. It should, with five points, turn into a blue AOE. Or it could be overhauled to add something to our raid-wide ability
Remember, this is a work-in-progress list. Please post things you'd like to add/change.
List updated: 2011-04-23 @ 18:16 EST

The new Consolidated List of Broken Guardian Stuff list is created.
Post suggestions/comments, I'll update the list as nessecary.
Can a moderator please unpin the old one and pin this one?

When everyone realizes this is a DPS oriented game and move on from trying to fix Guardian TPS, the faster a solution can come about.
In short give Guardians ST dps that equates to > of that of the crusader counterpart. Remove arena endurance from the STA line and mimic Knights Stance in the final option, that way both warrior class's will benefit from it.
No raid leader or group is going to take a tank into a zone that parses 20k, when they can grab an AE tank as an SK who parses 40k. It's just not going to happen, everyone needs to wake up and understand this.
It does not matter if you parse 1 billion TPS, its all about burning a mob down and dps, look at healer dps and utility dps this xpac, everyone else is going up.... But Guardians still want to be the king of standing there hitting 3 taunts and taking no damage.
There is no difference in survivability anymore between the plate tanks, its a null point. We have the worst mythical out of all the plate class's, we have the lowest ST and AoE dps of all the plate tanks.
Increase our dps to that of at least 1/4 > of the AoE tanks on ST target, easiest way give us a version of knights stance in either the shadows tree (warrior) or remove arena endurance and replace it with that. We all know that is the worst AA you can possibly pick it does nothing for raiding or heroic play.

These Guardian changes coming down the pipe will do nothing to insure a spot for a raiding Guardian, and it will be another year before the only mechanics dev we have can probaby rethink it. Please stop crying about TPS, the reality of this game is centered around DPS now, it has been since Shadows, and its true today.

I appreciate that you've put in the time to create this post but I'm afraid that you don't understand a lot of the mechanics at play here. There are too many errors to correct without simply re-writing the thread (quick examples.. block mechanics, mitigation caps, dragoon's reflexes, 25% dmg reduction on myth!!?!, unyielding will).
Also, the change in roles that you mentioned in your second paragraph are not going to happen. They are simply suggestions by a player (Atan) in another thread about a possible direction that SOE could take the fighters if they wanted to. It was an offering of an idea, nothing more.
We could use a few tweaks to damage soaking abilities just to put us ahead of the pack again (stone skin group proc mentioned by Xelgad is a very good start), some decent AOE threat skills for instance runners, a large increase in single target dps while using a shield and an even bigger increase in dps when dual wielding.

Yes, simple we need a crap load more DPS, other wise we are still stuck in T5.

Okay, thanks guys. So far I was able to fix up the list, some. Let me start by going down, post by post.
Forsho@Guk wrote:

So you're saying it's about damage, sure, that works. I fixed up Issue I, so it reflects that. No more does it mention agro, but instead damage.

Forsho@Guk wrote:

I'm confused here, were you talking about the chanages Xelgad had?
Aerin@Splitpaw wrote:

Yeah, I touched on the "block" ability for a bit. It sucks that it is dispelled by a combat art, unlike similar abilities that other tanks have.
I guess the 25% was too much to ask for a buff that's not always on, so I reworded that. But you are correct, Unyielding Will is still the worst death prevent in the game. I feel that's a minor issue, as to why it's green.
I didn't touch on the mitigation issue. Give me some things to write, I'll write it.
Yeah, our damage soaking isn't that good either, I'll work on that.
Toranx@Crushbone wrote:

See above.

Exactly replace TPS with DPS, with all our normal tools we have now +/- some tweaks and viola. I wasn't talking about xelgad's changes, I am talking about in general every class can push out serious numbers. I have seen fury's hit 80k parses, inquiz do another 80k, bards doing 50k... the list goes on and on. The game is based around dps, and this is the major flaw in our design, we cannot hold on to the old ideas of hitting taunts and standing proud with our shield.
Its about doing our "main" job but also complementing every other aspect needed in a heroic or raid group. We should be viable in all aspects not just parsing "X" tps .... any tank can hold agro, what sets them apart is in the dps area, and as kings of single target we should shine in that.

Another annoucement: I've updated the list. Let me know if you guys think it needs something else, or should be tuned up.

dalponis wrote:

This used to be quite useful when soloing heroics (only green ones if 3 up of course). Several times I have been beaten down to 50% by a heroic faster than I could reduce its health, then this kicked in and turned the battle around. But lone heroics are now very rare so it's usefulness has declined.
I have always thought that this was designed for soloing when you do not have a healer around to turn it off. Having one ability specifically for soloing seems not unreasonable.

I made another post about this, but one way to increase our DPS is to increase the gains in the Slaughtering Line on the Guardian Tree.

I suggested increase per rank from 6% to 10% and for Taunting Blows from 4% to 8%. You can work the numbers to increase it more if needed.
For DPS you need to balance the Guardian around the Paladin. I feel that a Guardian should do more single target damage than a Paladin just as a Paladin do more AE damage than a Guardian. Make that even and it should make most Guardians happy.

The bottom line is Guardians just want to do enough damage to help provide protection for their allies. We don't want to be a SK or Zerker, if we did we would play that class.

Dragoons reflex in its current state is stupid , for 12 sec we can survive but cant dps NO other class has a survival ability that u have to stop DPSing and just taunt its dumb. Also using a sheild our dps is dirt when i have to sheild up in raid i parse between 8-13k however if i can duel wield my parse goes to over 20k other tanks can leave their sheilds on and parse 20k and also remain fully defensive how is that even close to fair or even ? Fix the sword and board DPS for Guards plz.

Valiantsword wrote:

I always thought it was stupid that you couldn't use combat arts while using Dragoon reflex. That is why I never got it. Though I could careless since I like the other warrior tree options.
If a Paladin in simular gear can parse 20k with a sword and board, than a Guardian should be able to parse 20k using a sword and shield. That is what balance is called. They are both defensive tanks their DPS should be about the same.

Zivgar wrote:

Most of a paladin's DPS comes from procs. Reflect is another matter but mainly its procs. Unless you stop a crusader from critting on spells they will always be able to proc more things than warriors due to the disparity of spell procs >> combat art procs.

Valiantsword wrote:

I wrote about Dragoon's Reflexes, but I took it out... It does suck. It's forcing us to do less damage for meer melee protection. I'll put it back in. Tell me what you think.

Boli32
I would never want to lower a Paladins DPS, but you have to agree that Guardians need to be on par with them. However they need to do that then they should do that.

I think that is a much better idea for Dragoon Reflex than what it is now. Would I like it better than your suggestion? Yes, but I feel that lowering the Guardians attack speed/ DPS in that stance is more balancing. So I like what you put, at least now we can attack, but at a lower rate than normal.

Dalponis' account expired. He's not going to pay for this game just so he can try to help the developers have a topic to try and figure out what is wrong with Guardians.

My thoughts? Redo all the classes from the ground up. Only way at this point, since it's all so buggered.

We need class uniqueness again. Since this game is going more and more PVP, the classes are getting less and less unique.
Guardians have nothing very much unique about them. Well, the lack of DPS, I guess...

watevah wrote:

Yeah, nevermind the massive amount of stoneskins....

Yea stoneskins really set us apart in PVP! Troll harder troll boy.