Consolidated Dirge issue thread. (11/24/06)

Discussion in 'Dirge' started by ARCHIVED-Salmastryon, Feb 7, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-Salmastryon Guest

    Moved missing spells to fixed. Clarified items previous form issues list on the fixed list.

    Things to watch/checkAllegro
    -
    I'm unsure on whether to add this to issues or not. I'm going to run a survey of the casting timers of the various classes to see if 6-8 ranks actually do have any effect. Opinions on this would be great.

    Harmonizing shot

    -When not used in a situation where the dehat portion would give you negative aggro does the dehate part get rid of less hate than the damage part gives hate. This needs to be tested.

    Debuffing small amounts of resists of high level targets
    -there seems to be an issue with this Zander's being one of the examples. Further tests need to be done to pin down exact problem.
  2. ARCHIVED-Salmastryon Guest

    7/19/2006 - Added PoS bug, moved oration to fixed and removed Allegro from things to do.

    Things to watch/checkAllegro
    -
    I'm unsure on whether to add this to issues or not. I'm going to run a survey of the casting timers of the various classes to see if 6-8 ranks actually do have any effect. Opinions on this would be great.
    While the amount of decreased for 8 ranks in allegro is not worth it in my opinion it does do additional cast reduciton for 3s spells at 8 ranks.

    Harmonizing shot

    -When not used in a situation where the dehat portion would give you negative aggro does the dehate part get rid of less hate than the damage part gives hate. This needs to be tested.

    Debuffing small amounts of resists of high level targets
    -there seems to be an issue with this Zander's being one of the examples. Further tests need to be done to pin down exact problem.
    Message Edited by Salmastryon on 07-19-2006 01:34 AM
  3. ARCHIVED-Salmastryon Guest

    I'm going to clean this up. So, fi people have anything they want to add let me know.
  4. ARCHIVED-Etherin Guest

    Lets be clear about the Tombs line:
    IT IS BROKEN
    Its not that its not a valuable thing, its that it is broken! Parse it a bunch and you will see.. it procs as if it was 5%, but its listed as 12%.
    Fix that please and I might actually use it. As it is now, its really a joke of a concentration slot.
  5. ARCHIVED-Salmastryon Guest

    Tomb's isn't broken and is working as advertised. See thread here for my response on the subject with the math, explanation and the hard data form the parses. Proc percentages on weapons can be confusing, so it is understandable to get messed up on how oftenit should actually proc. ;)
  6. ARCHIVED-Shadowinajar Guest

    No i isnt broken if you would throw a lawyer in..but ->

    "The issue really is proccing itself. Not sure what buffs people have on on raids, but even if I wasnt in the MT group (unlikely), I dont think adding a max of 6.2 x 6 = 36 dps to a raid that typicall parses around 12k-15k is going to inspire people to thank me for all those fabulous green clouds."

    you want to poke yourself with a wooden stick in the eye for knowing it.:smileysad:
    I think its like the devs think they did something good with makin us the decision easier which song not to have up.
    Apllesauce pointed a bit into the EoF direction..great! now we can buy our wothless spells back to be something
    not so wothless by grinding and waisting AAs:smileysad::womanmad:

    Wohoo..good i dont care so much:womanvery-happy:

  7. ARCHIVED-Salmastryon Guest

    Tomb's is already listed under the issues section

    Tomb's Line:-This buff rarely makes it onto people people's list of maintained buffs. It has been sugested to make this as desireable a buff as Rianna's for dps. Suggestions to do this include, increasing the proc rate, increase the damage or add an additional effect when it procs.
    The perception I precieved from the earlier post was that it should be moved to the bug section. I try to be very fair with what I add and remove from the list. I often add things I dont agree with to the issues. And I try to have solid confirmation of a bug before I add it the bug list.

    As for the partical quote you provided check out my response to it here.


    Message Edited by Salmastryon on 10-30-2006 05:31 PM
  8. ARCHIVED-Salmastryon Guest

    Ok i've been taking crib notes, for issues and bugs with the new AAs and EoF in general. Here is what I got so far.

    Bugs:

    Zander's still broke

    Pet bug getting stuck in combat is worse. (The necro in our group had to cnacel pet after almost every fight)

    Stealth bug still there


    Issues:
    What point is there in Bria's AA when the power cap from spell buffs is still 52.5 at lvl 70? (I'm assuming it still is cause I've not seen anything about it being changed)

    There are other classes getting AAs that increase their SoW buff to above the Selo's even with the KoS wis AA maxed. SoW can still be cast on as many targets and the healer wants in or out of group. Selo's should be able to be increased to at least match this if not exceed it without having to use jboots or other auxilery items. Run buffs are a class defining feature for a bard.

    Resist rates are crazy. Masters and Master IIs should be regularly resisted by blue triple up mobs. Anyone else having this problem?

    And on a personal note what is up with all toggles and recast timers on our buffs now?

    I'm sure there are others I've missed due to the fact I've been busy crafting, playing and gawk instead of looking at the mechanics.
  9. ARCHIVED-Triag Guest

    A few details on troubs :

    Alin's serene line ( group hate reducer )

    Requiem of reflection
    ( magic stoneskin, 10% at adept1 , 12% at master )

    Precision of the maestro
    ( adds proc to each group spell cast and raises int : dazes and roots the troub )


    none of these can be cast on the run, while it is understandable for PotM,
    the others join allegro and sonnet on the "huh?" list
    This is also the case for 2 of the 4 troub DD spells.

    Other issues :
    A tiny power drain on melee CA ( dirges' lifetap )
    The bow attack, same damage as dirges ( at least has a 2.5 seconds stifle if both hit )
    The % on the AAs = +2 in defense and + 16 str/sta for 4 AA points each ( master spells )
    Lack of conc free buffs / stances

    Bard stealth is the only stealth / invis without an added effect.
  10. ARCHIVED-Salmastryon Guest

    Ok updated this again. The two big additions was therun speed issue and the magnetic note bug. Yeah, I've pretty much think the issues with it has to be a bug. I can't see any use for this skill versus solo mobs, which are the only mobs it is working properly on atm. Didn't add the Bria's thing, because with testing I pretty much proved that if there is a power regen cap anymore I couldn't reach it with my coercer friend.

    Does anyone else find it annoying that the same basic bugs and issues have been up there forever and we haven't even got a "Yeah, we know about that it just doesn't have an easy solution, but we are working on it." or "That's not a bug, it is the way the game is designed." *grumbles* I personally think at this point they just want to hid Zander's Choral Rebuff under a rock and pretend it never existed.

    I also added the link to that huge thread on the test forum about Bards under issues. Since, it brings up discusses, argues and suggests ideas and issues from various angels and view points that are beyond the scoop of what I add to my little issue section.

    As always, if I've missed something, stated something wrong or misrepresented something let me know and I'll do my best to test and fix it.
  11. ARCHIVED-Shadowinajar Guest

    Devs wont move to deathavley its hot and bare here..
    if they would come down here the hungry bards would tear them their arms of if they would reach us an hand:smileyvery-happy:
  12. ARCHIVED-Rijacki Guest

    I'm only disgruntled about 2 things in the game, the tradeskill dev (and anything he does without someone overseeing him intently.. and the condescending way he imparts any information.. I got to see lots more of that in beta *sigh*) and the fact bards are pretty much.. well... treated like dreck.

    Ironically, I did roll up a fae dirge on AB. Optimistic or masochistic or just because I like the roleplay concepts with one, take your pick.

    I also rolled up a fae illusionist on Guk which I plan to betray to co-ercer.

    The only reason I have a role with my dirge in my guild's raids is that we have only Qeynos classes (by choice). I'm sure if we opened up to both sides.. well.. there would be no need for more than one dirge and barely a need for one, since co-ercers do it sooooo much better.

    Bards don't want other classes to be nerfed. They want to be brought up to the same level (or even just close to the same). Bards should have the spotlight from time to time. They're entertainers, they want to perform. Being forgotten in the shadows is depressing.

    (The only reason I'm wanted in guild groups at all right now, by their own admission, is for a mana battery. They don't want or need anything else a dirge can bring because it really doesn't make much difference at all. *sigh*)
  13. ARCHIVED-Whysprr_Wyrd Guest

    Is that really your experience, Ohelia? I was under the impression that parry / stoneskin were highly desirable in the MT group, and that the latest update made Boon valuable, too. You guys just so uber now that you don't need 'em?
    In groups I find that Ovation, rez, debuffs, and my buffs and dps altogether make a satisfactory package. I arrest wipes-in-progress, make the group tougher, and speed up progress noticeably. Not indispensably -- in a group nothing but one tank and one healer is - - but enough to be welcomed.
    Whysp
  14. ARCHIVED-Rijacki Guest

    The comment was "we could really use a bard right now for the power regen", zero zip zilch else. It's been that way for a bit, really. Most don't know what a dirge brings since it is barely evident.

    Groups are different than raid. In a raid, we don't have co-ercers (Qeynos only guild) so dirges are still needed for the MT and ST. I'll be frank and say that I seriously doubt the raid leaders know what else a dirge brings (or rather think it's marginal at best) since there are 5 set buffs required for the MT dirge to sing and none of them are the self-buff, I assure you. We also don't have a paladin currently so, yes, in raid, a dirge is also the rezzer. Heck, I've been left in the group with only sorcerers (and 1 healer) since the raid leader forgot to move me and obviously my contribution to the ST group wasn't really missed enough to be considered, even as we were going up against nameds.. but I was handy as a battery, I guess.

    Yes, in a group, a dirge has oration and rez. But, when you heal someone or rez someone, the healer will be creditted. It happens all the time.
  15. ARCHIVED-Whysprr_Wyrd Guest

    You've been unfortunate in your groups, then. Ol' Whysp's had a number of groups where they noticed. Usually it's the healer who notices, actually. And I was in a group the other day where we pulled a swarm, and we pulled it out, and the tank thanked me and I said I was sure the necro helped out too.
    The necro said he was FDing.
    Whysp
  16. ARCHIVED-Kavoc Guest

    I would include the new style of Hyran's as an issue/bug. Do any other classes have a buff that requires concentration, but can only be maintained on a single ally? There aren't any that I can think of off the top of my head but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

    Either way, I think it either needs the concentration removed or to be changed back to the multi-ally maintable version.
  17. ARCHIVED-ronna40 Guest

    Apply Poison, 55(?) Assassin Buff, requires 1 concentration and can only be cast on group member, (not raid) which adds a heafty poison proc. I am kinda new so that is the only example i can think of off the top of my head.
  18. ARCHIVED-Android9 Guest

    New style?
    I always thought Hyran's worked as it does now. Any spell/song that is maintained should have a concentration associated. Makes less sense if you think about it being able to maintain a song spell on more than 1 person without requiring extra concentration. (Thinking along the lines of how a dirge might actually sing spellsongs, assuming bards existed IRL)

    I'm also not convinced by your arguement that it needs to be changed, just because "...[no] other classes have a buff that requires concentration" for a single ally. This doesn't really say we need to let dirges throw up hate buffs on all their group members.

    Though personally I'd love to be able to do this to all those cocky wizards. ;)

    As it is now I usually only use Hyran's on raids on the MT, or occasionally when the group tank is not the best hate generator. (Rarely) and having to take off one group buff (usually tomb's, or boon, or something) doesn't kill the group dynamic too much.

    I don't consider Hyran's broken.
  19. ARCHIVED-Android9 Guest

    Old post, but i'm at work and bored. Gotta say Rijacki, I hope your experience has improved in the last couple months. All I know is I'm one of 2 Dirges in my heavy raiding guild and I get phone calls (because I'm a casual player) when they need my help.

    Stoneskin, Hyran's, Cachophony, the 3 main debuffs, and the rest I don't know by name, but Parry buffs, melee attack buffs, etc. Stick me with the MT and he takes a lot less damage. Put me with the assassins and they know what I bring to the table. If you're just in this game for self recognition, or "who has the highest dps", then yer playing the wrong class. Who cares if the healer gets credit for reses or heal, you know you just saved that guys life, that should be good enough.

    Elugy of Awakening, combat group res. Only downside is you come back with very little mana/hps, but hey you can cast it on a wiped out raid group and get them back up again. (Of course if a whole raid group is dead yer probably not doin too hot)

    I hope you stuck with the class, I think Dirges are underrated a bit, but guilds that have been around are usually thrilled to have good dirges in their ranks.
  20. ARCHIVED-Rijacki Guest

    My dirge is 70 and has been a while. She's got 71 (or 72) achievements. I raid with her 2 or 3 days a week (depends on if I can get home early enough from work, not like tonight). While there has been a verbal statement that bards are wanted for raiding, I've really seen little.. umm.. I dunno, real desire to have bards as anything more than mana batteries and dirges to rez in the rough named fights.

    I find the dirge a fun and interesting character to play as long as the buff bot, mana battery, or even "just rez" roles aren't foisted on me. I've even got a fae dirge in her 20s with almost no grouping.

    I don't like that -everyone- has better buffs and debuffs and a lot more than bards including more runspeed now. There are even other classes that have better -group- buffs that don't cost concentration (i.e. the illusionist's power regen, group and maintained with no concentration). Granted, most classes with debuffs only have single target debuffs but they have to renew them about as often as our group ones and they're not a constant drain on power.

    Dirges do have a lot to offer, but other classes offer the same to a group and more. Dirges (and troubies) desperately need some "lovin'" so they're even noticed at all.