If it is that big of a change why not look at some raid parses and come to a consensus on what % simmoners should all be adjusting by then adjust the damage on the dummy fight and post that. There are items on my parse that shift too because of ascensions as my castorder canges some between the dummy pull and normal raid. So only adjust the ones that are off due to hp and maybe the pet auto attack.
I really don't get the "I'm not posting data because my clsss might get nerfed" mindset. Do people think that the devs don't have access to logged combat data or the ability to shadow actual raids (hint: Gninja has said he does this frequently)? Do you really think they'd come to a thread like this and base balancing decisions solely on our reported data? Do you think they'd ignore all the caveats (and I made it a point to both outline them and invite others to add)? The scout Ravaging rune just by itself is skewing our numbers higher, relative to other clssses in real combat situations, than they'd otherwise show. That didn't stop half a dozen beastlords from contributing here in an attempt to help the community. Soulburn scaling here would actually show LOWER than real results, if the conjuror has decent stats and isn't being normalized too heavily by the formulas (the extremely well geared ones could even be seeing negative shift after normalization). You're getting over double your solo max health in raids if you have an Inquisitor buffing your group. Just having basic healer group buffs by itself can offset the "normalized boost". If you're so deeply concerned about your pet autoattack showing up as a vastly different percentage of your parse, then post some good zonewide data next to your dummy testing parse and let us get a sense of how far off the final results may be. Give us detailed caveats in your post and people will read and interpret. I see a lot of flimsy excuses from people who are more concerned about selfishly protecting their own class than assisting with overall game balance. If this community wants to remain dysfunctional and divided, well, we reap what we sow. High end Rangers are also being noticeably quiet with their support here. Thank you to those that have contributed. Please continue to invite your friends to help.
But doesn't same applies to BLs Primal Chain no? Baseline is baseline and basically state very simple thing We take dummy with zero CMIT and whack it for 10+ min w/o using Ascending with all we got to see how high parse can go with normalized stats. We definitely can see - bunch of BLs went and did their best (even if we looks like slackers lol compare to others) - all purpose of this test not to nerf or boost anyone but at least set some benchmark for given condition kind of "zero line" 0 CMIT = such and such class can do such and such on normalized damage BLs more or less normalized around 2-2.2B with spikes 2.6B for some truly exceptional one Rangers comes may be 10% less than that (but of course it not take in account hawk CMIT bypass) Summers were kind of in hide and my guess (looking on limited numbers) you folks clocking in ideal condition with zero MIT at 2.6B (which is like 20% higher then average normalized BL) and yeah we got that your pet is notably ineffective against T3+ Heck I most certainly see that I notably climb on my guild DPS ladder on most of T3 mobs I am clocking like 4-5th with around 600M on Shade (do not see a reason why should I hide those numbers even if they laughable)
Oh, trust me, Rangers and Summoners have been doing the dummy testing. The ones that are coming out with results around or exceeding the BLs just aren't posting their data. If you want people like me to actively advocate for your class, and all classes, then support this community effort and I will support you. If you want to give people like me reasons to invite an unusually high level of Dev scrutiny towards your class, keep playing spy games and I'll do what I can, within my power, to help you get that special attention Speaking for my class: if there are going to be any upcoming changes to my abilities, I want everyone (devs and players) to be fully informed on how my class works and for there to be an open community discussion on changes. I do NOT want developers to make changes based on their own private assessment because I made them shadow a raid and decipher parse data, or I didn't express my desires as to how I want the class to be structured. I genuinely hope that other people feel the same way about their own class.
Why on earth would anyone who states they are all for advocacy of equality proceed to follow that statement up with "Unusually high level of dev scrutiny?"
People seem to have a hard time understanding such a simple concept. So let's say going from a T1 fight to a T4 fight you might lose 50% overall dps. For a summoner, going from a T1 fight to a T4 fight we lose about 70% dps overall. Everyone takes the same amount of reduction except summoners. Its not that hard to understand. If you take a reduction, the damage output %-wise will be the same, except for in this case, when something goes from top 5 parsing output on a dummy to below 1% of my parse. Lets say your savage ravaging is always top 3 on your parse around 7% of your dps. Then when you go to a T4 fight, that ability then drops down to 1% of your dps, but the other abilities stay relatively where they were %-wise. Do you not think at that point using savage ravaging on a training dummy, where it would be doing 7% of your dps versus content where it will then be doing 1% of your dps is an issue? Because it is inaccurate to have any sort of summoner data. It has nothing to do with this "anti-nerf" mindset. The summoners dps on a training dummy will be about 10-20% higher than what it should be because of how the abilities work. Have you forgotten what you posted recently? Let me remind you. So you want me to post data that is dishonest and unfair so you can have some data set list of rankings from a test that is fallible in the first place. Then you get upset that we don't want to post data because what your list is showing is what people were already stating. The main issue with your test is that barely anyone has posted their actual parse data. So anyone at that point, I am not saying they are, can just insert random data. You make the assumption that people are exceeding beastlords, but you are ignorant to the fact that some may just not care about posting. I did the test to see what I could do then I found the errors within the test itself. You wanted to make a test to defend your class specifically because of people crying. The only thing now is that the data itself proves that beastlords are on a higher level than other classes when they can actually be equalized somewhat properly. Please, do so. At least when it comes to playing with T2-T4/expert mobs, my class will be accurately portrayed. This is probably the best post you have made in all of this thread. I am fairly certain you don't have much power, but I'd like to be enlightened. I find it funny how much credit you are trying to give for such a poorly designed test.
What Veta is saying to you is 100% dead on the money for the mechanics involving summoner as the tiers progress up.
Veta, my suggestion to you is to either post a parse with the things you believe are "out of sorts" removed, or just stop worrying about it. Vynie already posted his parse for the rangers, I find it funny that Entropy thinks there are any rangers doing much more DPS than he is. All this test has shown is exactly what everyone has been talking about this whole expac; BL are the highest DPS potential in the game, and it's barely close. Even a conj with their pet doing 50% more damage than it would do on anything with combat mitigation can barely beat them on the training dummy parses. BL are ahead of everyone (which might change when everyone gets a "ravaging" rune May 9th). Sorcerers/Assassins are pitifully behind all other T1s, I'd say at least the verdict is out on THAT much information for sure.
No, not at all. That's your perception, because you're projecting what you know as the average personality of an MMO player onto me. Except you don't really know me. I am a numbers guy. And I'm naturally curious. I'm also invested in the EQ franchise to the tune of multiple tens of thousands of hours over the last two decades. I'm here because I enjoy my gaming hobby, I enjoy this virtual world, and I want to see it attract more players and keep current ones; that gets accomplished through (among other things) having a meaningful class balance philosophy. The balancing act is difficult for devs to pull off, and I was attempting to give them another analysis tool as an additional reference. Every time class balance and DPS potential comes up in Discord or in the forums, I always go back to this statement: "we need to start with a real discussion on the Utility vs. DPS concept, and drive the devs to restore meaningful utility to some classes"... and I say something to that effect... and then one person /nods in my direction... one person clicks "Like"... one person considers it thoughtfully for a few minutes... but everyone else ignores that statement and continues to blindly bang their face against the ACT window until the glass cracks. So, yeah, this is a bit of an uphill battle. This testing effort is of little value if the sample size is too small to make any kind of reasonable assessment. We barely have a large enough data set from different BLs to start to see some clustering of data; as for other classes, they are either not interested (oh btw, this was just for funsies for healers... thanks to the few of you who participated) or they are intentionally hiding results and making excuses instead of just doing what I politely asked and offering caveats along with their results. I can't wave my hand and produce results from a dozen skilled people of each main DPS class. We need people to offer their time and their trust. We need people to care, and to be less selfish. No, I don't have a lot of power. I'm just one dude. One persistent dude, however. I will see this through, preferably via the "easy way", but otherwise, whatever it takes. If that means that I go until Kander, Caith and Gninja start ignoring my PMs, and I'm no longer welcome in Discord, then that's what it takes. It's about the best I could do given the conditions. If you find it to be so terribly lacking, you are welcome to do something positive for this community, come up with a better set of combat environment controls, and run your own testing effort. I've asked developers, through every different method I can muster, for a training dummy with a current raid buff package. I'd like to think that we'll get one someday. Until then, this is what we've got. The test was designed to be difficult to "cheat"... if you sandbag your performance or lie and underreport your numbers, you look like a poor performer next to your peers. I'd like to think I understand a bit about the human condition, and I believe that shame is a powerful motivator. Keeping your results a secret or consciously choosing to not help because you feared what the outcome out be, so congratulations to everyone who ran the test and did just that: you are truly unhelpful... and you're probably a little bit proud of yourself for having achieved that dubious honor. Hey, it's almost like this thing was specifically designed to give us a rough idea on exactly these issues. Maybe we should spend less time being catty and more time helping the developers help us?
We need to rerun this test after classes get orange adorns. I'm willing to bet wiz/lock will jump up a bit but still need adjustment. Bl ranger will jump a little. And necro spec will fly past everyone if they are not already ahead.
Word through the grapevine is that pet's are going to be adjusted in the May 9th update, so necro and conj don't skyrocket with the orange adorn.
All mages will see a ~75% increase on their dps while this proc is up. All scouts will see a ~20% increase on their dps while this proc is up. This will put summoners an additional 50% above the next highest people on the parse, assuming equal variables. If we assigned numbers of current dps, summoners, rangers and beastlords are a current 10. Assassins, Rogues, are an 8, bards, chanters, sorcerers are a 5, the rest are around a 4, assuming equal variables. After this orange adorn, without any class balance changes, summoners will be an 17, rangers and beastlords will be an 12, assassins/rogues will be a 9, sorcs/chanters an 8, and the rest at a 6. As i have said, it will further skew class balance. This rune, while i like seeing them upgrade our old gear, is a bad idea. It is another attempt to solve class balance with gear, rather than abilities. Of course, all of these are my estimates based on known fervor values of different classes, so im not saying it will happen exactly like this, but my point is that Mages will see a dramatically larger increase in dps than what scouts will, because of ethereal ravaging. If this rune is going to be implemented, then it also needs to come with some tentative class balance changes to compensate for the added boost in dps.
I don't get why they are doing it either after the mess the hammer proc made What are they going to do balance classes around a proc?
</3 Healer dps balance matters too... especially to those of us who are 99% of the time behind a shaman (who could solo heal while doing homework and watching netflix) and wondering why we're even in the raid/group. Was that last bit a little off topic? Okay yes. But my point is, dps is about all non-shaman priests can really aspire to right now in this game with heal mechanics broken as they are, so it's kinda more than just for funsies to me. But your efforts genuinely try to be the start of a productive conversation, and that's why I contributed even though you'd need to make some pretty big adjustments to make this data accurate for my class. And it'd be cool if more people would contribute their data, including proposed adjustments to the formula to account for the quirks of their class mechanics, if necessary...
I don't see that orange rune helping assassins a whole lot at all, it doesn't address the basic problems with the class
The same goes for wizards. like I have said all along just take one look in act and compare the total numbers of hit a sorcerer does to other dps classes in the game, its double if not triple the amount of times they are hitting the mobs and for higher damage amounts too.
@Veta yeah I know you folks doing T4 - we haven't killed single T4 yet but most T3 already flawaless and we started doing experts as well. I tell you this - my BL not the top dog at all but my DPS on expert mob degrade in very same degree as yours - the only class that shine on experts are rangers with their hawk. I tell you honest even more - the ONLY skill that seems to be able pierce through CMIT on experts was my ancient prey for the weak. My experts ether spells seems failing miserably to get notable DPS output - I guess bumping to GM might address the issue (to give the numbers I was merely doing above 150M on expert mob ) ranger on other hand exceeded 500M
Are you in geo stance for t4 doom ? Our blord is still is very strong like 5 times the dps number you gave I believe he plays it to max potential. I notice mages dps particularly wiz really drops off on them.
