It's almost like gear explicitly designed to sacrifice survivability for DPS increases your DPS at the cost of your survivability. Upon reading your comment a second time, I have to conclude that you are joking since I still have a shred of faith that someone could not possibly be that stupid and still be in a guild capable of earning them mystical gear.
if you have some nice ToV raid jewelry, and a group with 2 healers, you can easily run in no sta gear for all of ToV except maybe Klan and Zlan
Mountbatten, I think his point was that every other mage class can get away with wearing stamina gear and not be messed over on DPS, where as Coercers can't. It's almost like gear explicitly designed to screw over Coercers survivability if they want any chance of being able to DPS like they should (and even then, not enough). Upon reading your comment, I either conclude: A) That the Coercers in your guild give you some form of competition, i.e. you're doing something wrong as an Illusionist. or B) You're just looking to pick fights. There wasn't much of a Coercer population left when I mained one (probably because of how much they had been screwed over), but of the few people that were actively playing, Lumi was probably the only Coercer I got some real competition from. Ucala is right though, it's possible. Until the raid leader threatens to dock DKP for wearing it haha. edit- I guess A was the correct choice.
I will chime in to dispel a misconception that the 'no sta' gear is 'best' on coercers. It is 'best' on classes with high base AA damage (e.g. AA stats & weapon rating) and AA multiplier that also benefit from potency. List of AA multipliers (mostly from memory, could be wrong but assumed accurate) 1.470 Inquisitor 1.440 Ranger 1.432 Templar 1.375 Warden 1.320 Mystic, Defiler 1.300 Channeler, Illusionist, Coercer 1.240 Beastlord, Swashbuckler, Brigand 1.225 Bruiser*, Monk* *(if below 50% health) 1.000 Fury, Guardian, Berserker, Paladin, Shadowknight, Wizard*, Warlock*, Necromancer*, Conjuror* *(spell weapons are weird) What this means, assuming all other AA stats (e.g. DPS, MA, CB, Weapon Rating, etc.) are equal, a class with a higher AA multiplier will benefit more from increased WDB than a class with a lower AA multiplier. It is clear that rangers, which have higher ability base values and a higher AA multiplier, are receive a larger benefit than coercers. Additionally, arguments could be made for inquisitors, templars, wardens, mystics, defilers, channelers, and illusionists depending on their relative ability damage compared to coercers. The gear isn't bad on coercers, it certainly is the best DPS gear for every class. However stating that the class is the "biggest loser" simply isn't true.
Then by all means suggest ways to improve the Coercer class instead of trying to insinuate that I'm bad based on a tongue-in-cheek comment I made about myself. I was simply saying that glass cannon gear improves everyone's DPS, not just coercers. The idea that coercers somehow benefit more and thus are screwed more is flawed. Everyone knows Coercers are behind. But it seems that people would rather just whine about it rather than try to give a solution, unless someone actually had a real suggestion buried under all the BS. Pretty sure the devs will take more notice of that over petty squabbling.
Correcting myself and adding both rogues and assassin to this list, due to comparable AA multipliers and relatively higher base ability damage. 1.240 Assassin
Koko, I was referring to Coercers being the biggest loser of the mages. Which they are. If you want to tell me that Sorcerers and Summoners will gain more from no stam gear than Mystical gear, you're wrong, and if you need me to explain why I can (hopefully you can figure it out for yourself). And Illusionists primarily use Ranged auto attack and choose Double cast over Flurry, so again Weapon damage bonus affects Coercers more.. Mountbatten, Coercer suggestions have been made and ignored. And like I wrote above, the "glass cannon" gear doesn't improve everyone's DPS, and certainly if it does, it won't be as much as a Coercer based on the stats we chose over the other Mages. We don't need double cast, 20k+ ability mod, or +HP %. I chose to respond to you because you seem to think Lumi is stupid for being right, not because I give a damn where this class/game is going. And there is no point bringing scouts and healers into the question- both can easily have 400+ HP solo in no-stam gear (if not more), versus Coercers who while I was playing could barely scrape 350k HP solo in no-stam gear.
Clearly.. Hopefully someone else will come here and spell it out for you, because I don't feel like wasting any more time on something so simple as other mages don't benefit from WDB as much as Coercers do. An illusionist that has 10% Flurry isn't going to gain equal benefit from WDB as a Coercer with 80% Flurry.
You're not really helping your case. There's data and math that challenges your assertions. I am quite willing to admit that I am wrong if you can show me actual data that proves it. As it is, right now I am of the opinion that WDB gear benefits Illusionists at least as much as Coercers, especially so if they are specced for melee. Edit: clarification, when I say WDB gear I mean the no-stamina stuff.
Based on the fact they have the same weapon multiplier, sure. But then you have to take into account that Illusionists use Ranged auto attack (which isn't affected by the multiplier), and regardless of that they need more double cast and ability mod than Coercers. Coercers put the excess stats into Flurry instead, thus extra hits from auto attack = more affected by loss of WDB.
How disingenuous. Seriously, how many coercers are running around with 80% flurry, realistically? Oh wait, we can actually quantify that... http://eq2mission.flame.org/leaderboards/stats:combat:flurry?utf8=✓&world=0&aclass=27&level=all&commit=Filter Answer: 0. Even with raid buffs? Perhaps a handful. But congratulations, you have successfully argued that an illusionist with 10% flurry is going to see less benefit with weapon damage bonus than a coercer with 80% flurry. In other news, water is wet and the sky is blue.
Illusionists use ranged auto because we're lazy and bad. I am going to take a huge leap of faith here and say an illusionist specced and geared for melee is going to do more DPS than an illy geared and specced for ranged. In both cases, the illy is going to out-dps a coercer. Coercers aren't in a great position right now. WDB isn't the answer, unless it involves raising their base WDB innately.
Except even if Illusionists specced Melee they'd need more Double Cast and Ability Mod than a Coercer which means less room for reforging into Melee stats, not to mention Coercers get a Melee group while Illusionsts get Mage groups. And again, I don't care that Coercers are in a bad place, devs don't care anymore. P.S. Running around with 80% Flurry raid buffed is fairly easy. I know Coercers in guilds that haven't cleared TOV let alone ones that have. I was reaching high 70s without the TOV raid belt/cloak.
I love mathematical arguments! I'll up the side that illusionists lose more. We agree that illusionists have higher base values with respect to their spells. The common 'trend' amongst players is that illusionists range AA instead of melee for reason _____. This reason is often "because it interrupts spell casts" which is not unique to illusionists (coercers share the same feature) and cast times are comparable between the classes. Because illusionists have higher base values on their spells, but the same auto attack multiplier, they lose 'more'. The best counter argument available would start by proving that illusionists are less 'able' to land melee auto attacks than coercers. This could be done by raid placement (e.g. add group on Zlandicar) or group synergy with limited range (e.g. Killing Chamber or Tortoise Shell).
I'm too tired for this... Lol. Most Illusionists, Koko, used Ranged auto attack for starters. It isn't affected by the multiplier. If they did spec Melee however, they would have less room to reforge into their Auto attacks, because they have stats they need that Coercers don't. For example, double cast. Reforging into Cast Speed, or choosing the DC cloak/belt results in less Flurry, or in the case of reforging, DPS Mod/AE Auto/MA. They also need more AB Mod. Then take into account Illusionists are placed in Mage groups while Coercers generally scout. To add to their base values on spells being higher, yes. This also means they'd gain more benefit from the extra potency on Mystical gear than Coercers. So saying they lose more, based on that is wrong. Because in fact, that would be a benefit to wearing Mystical gear, not a loss. And more of a benefit to Illusionists than Coercers because of the higher base values. I feel like I'm repeating myself.
You can stop right here, this is because their base values on abilities is higher. Arguing that the illusionist base values are higher does nothing but further the argument that they 'lose more' by not utilizing the 'no sta' gear. You need to prove why it is preferable for an illusionist to use ranged auto attack over a coercer to win the argument.
What? This is a discussion about why Coercers benefit most from no stamina gear. I'm going to sleep though, so hopefully someone else will explain it.
Irrelevant. False (with qualifiers). A spell-based Illuisionist will gain less from auto attack increases than a melee-based one. Thanks for confirming that. It's in line with confirming that 2 x 2 = 4 False. Neither class gets a buff or nerf when it comes to the SDA or Flurry conversion of Cast Speed and Haste respectively. Flurry is arguably worth more per percentage point. Nerf auto attack! Our base spell amount is more which is why we need more AB mod. Gee, it's almost like we're coming to a consensus here. Illusionists gain more from WDB gear than coercers.
What everyone is saying is coercers don't benefit the most from the no STA gear. As illusionists have a higher base autoattack multiplier, they get greater gains from WDB (assuming they melee) than coercers. I think the problem is that because coercers damage spells are so weak, melee autoattack becomes a larger percentage of the parse (of which the total parse is lower than all other mages). So when people look and see a largeish percentage of their DPS coming from melee, their natural assumption is that ability, when increased by X percent, will give a greater gains than increasing spell damage by the same X percent. But X percent of a low number is still a low number. The no STA gear is obviously better for all classes concerned with DPS. The WDB improves autoattack damage and the potency effects ability damage. Every single class bar tanks are better off taking this gear if they can still live through fights. Wizards don't see as much of a benefit because the vast majority of their dps comes from abilities. But the SWDB will still increase their spell weapon damage so even they are better, ie higher dps, if they wore the no STA gear.
