Coercer - Maximizing DPS (Range/Melee): Unda's & Blinding Shock

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Apathy, Feb 27, 2015.

  1. Laiina Well-Known Member

    Just from what I have seen in AoM, that may no longer be true. So many of the mobs seem to have massive "close encounter" aoe's that the extra damage and/or deaths taken by being up close and personal may not be worth it, and may actually reduce overall dps. I am gradually converting my Coercer over to maximize ranged and moving away from melee specs.
  2. Ucala Well-Known Member

    every expac there is about 3-5 mobs that do AoEs that are worth something (talking about endgame experiencing raiders raids that is, lower guilds might have AoEs that seem to hit them like a truck. /shrugs).
    It's kinda interesting with coercers cause they have to be close for shockwave and for blinding shock (both good moves for them). so they would have to either stand around 9m anyway. so why not melee.
    I have thought for the last few expacs though that melee just wasn't worth the (extremely small) boost in dps. ranged is less hassle, more relaxed, and well with Urda, it might pull you more dps. /shrugs
    I would need to actually play to know but I doubt 9m melee+Urda does more damage than 19m range and Urda
  3. Apathy Member

    I assume you mean staying ranged at 19m and just jousting in for Brainshock and Blinding Shock, correct? Otherwise, I would see a big loss even on single target cause blinding hits for a decent ammount.
  4. Ucala Well-Known Member

    I already did say blinding shock, and shockwave it's almost like you didn't even read half of what I wrote.
    (idk why you have to joust in for brainshock)? cause brainshock is a ranged spell
  5. Apathy Member

    Sorry I meant Shockwave not Brainshock
  6. Ucala Well-Known Member

    But what you are saying is basically what I said a few posts ago, I bet most coercers (similar to warlocks) just stand around 9m for their shockwave and blinding shock as well as melee auto, and -maybe- just take a few steps backwards to ~14m for Urda.
  7. Character Member


    Again, just an opinion. You're not supporting your argument of X does more damage than Y with any relevant information other than pure opinion/preference. And once more, it's >>UNDA<< /facepalm, not "Urda" (yer putting the em-fah-sis on the wrong si-lah-bel) and the more often you misspell one of the main topics of a post, the worse you make your argument for or against that topic. The point is, what is more beneficial? In combat is melee at 9m range, ranged at 19m range or jousting and using melee or ranged more beneficial? Using melee or ranged is just part of the equation since you have to take into account a slew of factors including but not limited to flurry, doublecast, unda, shockwave and the other new skill blinding shock. I really would like to see someone post some valid numbers in order to put this question of melee/ranged + doublecast/flurry to rest.

    EDIT
    Coercer is my main and I run melee build. I'm a lazy bastage and post up at the 9 meter range. I average 3-4mil parses wearing heroic gear. Vizio on AB server
  8. Koko Well-Known Member

    I can do that.

    -edit- In fact, I will do that. I'm bored.

    First, I will disprove that any 'hybridized' build is optimal. This is a relatively simple proof, as both melee and caster specs have linear returns with their respective stats (flurry/doublecast). If a coercer's damage can be described as

    Damage = C1*(Auto Attack) + C2*(x2 spells) + C3*(spells that don't doublecast)
    Removing non-modifiable terms,

    Damage - C3*(No x2 Spells) = Damage* = C1*(Auto Attack) + C2*(x2 spells)
    It follows that

    If C1*(Auto Attack) =/= C2(x2 spells)
    Then C1*(Auto Attack) > C2(x2 spells) or C2*(x2 spells) < C1*(Auto Attack)

    Which indicates that any build which selects both flurry & doublecast when presented the options at equal rates is non-optimal (this greatly simplifies this problem as it narrows the possibility to one of two potential build paths!). The next step is to compare these build paths.
  9. Ucala Well-Known Member

    tbh it has never been opinion, it has always been fact that melee has pulled more damage than wand. of course you can run the numbers if you want, but considering you are lazy I doubt you will.

    my misspelling shouldn't matter, as you still understand what I am saying. It's truly amazing isn't it? I mis spell a spell and you still know what it is.

    you can run your own numbers quite easily, I would if I still cared for this PoS game. but I don't

    to give you a brief test, lets say your melee does 100k, and your wand does. 60k. (base multiplayer of your melee with AA is 1.3 and wand is 1. so it's common sense that your melee does more damage).

    If you stand stand 9m lets say your Urda does 1 mil, and at 19 it does 2 mil (double the distance basically).

    so, 100k+1mil < 2 mil +60k. and that's if you never miss a melee attack, since melee is still depended on timing where wand isn't. This is just with those and this is just bad estimates (but I would say they represent it well).
    basically what I am saying is that your Urda will dominate your auto attack, weither or not it's melee or range, so tbh the factor of your auto attack doesn't really matter

    although you would have to be smart enough to joust in for blinding shock and shockwave and then back out. That would be rather alot of jousting on your part I admit.
    you ask someone to post numbers when if you main a coercer you can run numbers yourself.
    it's pretty easy to see that to get the Best Overall Dps requires you to melee at 9m, and joust out to 19m for Urda, and than back in to 9 before your melee gets delayed, and repeat the process several several times, but I bet no one does that. Everyone is cutting something out.
    also SDA is the best path to take
    Kraeref likes this.
  10. Chillispike Active Member

    I have Unda quite a while now, and i was jousting to 19m here and there as well.
    I kinda hated it, because you can't cast while moving so i loose some dps, while the higher hitting Unda was compensating it.

    With Unda i have pot, WDB, unda, Link and 5 points in the CB but not the end ability of it
    I really need to test it out more, but i specced out of Unda and went for CB, POT, WDB and Link in Prestige.
    Considering i'm specced Melee Autoattack and that CB boosts Melee as well i think i do more dps that way.

    The good thing about that comes forth on AE fights with some/lot of trash mobs around. When you stand at 9m you defo melee hit the one you targeted, but mobs there are further are out of range.
    So without Unda i stand at 5m range so i still can reach the further ones with melee autoattack as well. which also means Shock wave and Blinding shock have a better chance to hit more mobs.
  11. Ucala Well-Known Member

    there are certain moves that you can cast moving, one of them being your shadow AA dehate thing, I believe you can also cast sputify(or however it's spelled) while moving if you have it insta cast (which you should).
  12. Apathy Member

    What Ucala said, most of the AAs can cast on move (Stupefy* after PoM)
    Ether Balance and Puppermaster (Cast from stationary and run), Intellectual Remedy, etc, etc.
  13. Ucala Well-Known Member

    oh right, Ether Balance can be cast on the move too, completely forgot (been a while since I played this crap game, even longer as a coercer). and since Ether has such a low recast time, it will basically always be up for when you need to joust in/out
  14. Chillispike Active Member

    PoM makes Stupefy instant cast. depenting on your spec i use it after shockwave to cast it right away.
    That means casting Stupefy while running out, would make me loose the chance to cast Shockwave again since i'm out of range.

    After today raid i really must say my dps went up by like 500k - 1000k without Unda specced. (6.8 - 7mio dps instead of 5.8 - 6.2mio on the High Hold trash mobs)
    I really need to test it some more, but so far 100CB seems to be more worth it then Unda.
  15. Rocketjones Active Member

    Pretty sure this will be the case for ever and always as long as wdb is in game and scout groups are built around that concept.
  16. Ranga Active Member

    You also have to factor in the 'stand still' requirements of some of the new cb/pot jewelery which make jousting costly in terms of what you lose if you move. I am DC specced and never lose an auto even while moving.

    Some items and aa also will give you greater spell/ca range like 7% or so for the neck which allows you to stand further away for greater dmg from Unda and better range for blinding/shockwave etc.

    I tend to stand 10m and use Unda as a low aoe unless it is a single target mob when I stand 21m (given the extra range from the neck) to max unda and ignore what I lose from the aoes.

    I'll attack the dummy later and see what I get from using either blinding or Under at max range.
  17. Gypsa New Member

    Ok but can we please stop calling it Urda? It is UNDA.
  18. Ucala Well-Known Member

    the fact you care about the mis spelling when you know what I said amuses me, I now call it Urda on purpose

    yea, if you have the jewelery that requires you to stand still the best thing would probably be stand at max melee range and just accept the lower Urda (since you need to be close for shockwave and blinding anyway), in which case melee would be your best choice since you are already close anyway, and as I stated already, melee does do more dps than wand
  19. Chillispike Active Member

    I just made a test at with the epic dummy.
    Same gear and same temp buff items up.

    Parse 1 wih CB instead of Unda specc
    (01:17) training dummy: 2650
    Sanji | 2649543
    Psychic trauma had 39 hits - EncDps 297k

    Parse 2 Unda specc and fighting at 9m range
    (01:27) training dummy: 2342
    Sanji | 2342184
    Psychic trauma had 29 hits - EncDps 164k

    so i would say instead of the "visible" difference is like 200k without unda specced.

    I made a jousting parse as well .. but i casting was quite some off and i go have Band of Centered Energy which means i can't gain up to 110 potency.
    (01:39) training dummy: 2066
    Sanji | 2065713
    Psychic trauma had 11 hits - EncDps 70k

    Non jousting Unda hits for 3.4mil at 9m while the jousted one was at 5mil

    So for me the best dps i can do with a dummy is without Unda specced
  20. Ucala Well-Known Member

    well yea, if you have stand still effects the obvious answer is to stand at 9-10m and melee, with urda. I am confused on what you mean by CB instead of Urda? basic gains in AA's on the new AA line should be full pot and full CB, forget about the WDB line and get Urda