Coercer loses again

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Ozzello, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. Elkana Active Member

    The problem with a dev making contacts and talking to players of each class is this: Every one of those classes will be looking to make that class a solo raider for the most part. In other word, the best class in game. So you can't really do that either. It's a difficult job, and I wouldn't want to have it. You'll never be praised by anyone, because if the class is doing very well the player wants to take credit. If it's doing horribly, the player rejects all responsibility of it being bad even if poorly played, and the dev will receive all of the criticism and blame for being terrible at his job. LOL. What a terrible position huh? Ah, what is this thread about though?
  2. Jrox Well-Known Member

    Wizards not so much. There are a few really good ones out there, but the efforts they have to go through to remain in the top ten of a parser, I really don't want to get into all those dynamics. Lets just say it is very grp dependent and skill by the wizard himself. Remember what I said earlier, on equal ground with grp set up and gear anyone can Top the parse on a scout where a mage needs lots of skill and understanding of what goes into their spec, reforge, build, spell level, and gear. Plain and as simple as I can put it. i.e. My swash who I just created this Xpack does more dmg with expert spells than a few mages I know in raid gear and Ancient/Celestial across the board. And I don;t know jack about swashy's yet as this is my first toe in the pool so to speak.



    I will find a way to the top always. And it can be done by anyone who is willing to put in the time, money, and effort. You can't buy the top of the parse as a mage but it helps. You can't skill your way to the top of the parse, and you cant gear yourself to the top. But all three combined will give the best of them a run for their money. I don't need balance, let me say it again, "I Don't Need Balance!" What I need is fun. As long as I have the ability to push the DPS and I don't feel like all I am doing is hitting the same three buttons over and over to feed you BL's power so you can have ALL the fun, then great! I do not play EQ2 or an Illy for everyone else enjoyment, I do it for mine. Sorry, I am a team guy, but not at the expense of my own fun. There is a point at which I expect some fun and a sense of accomplishment I feel is earned that has to be gained. Anyone that stands on a soap box and tells all the utility and healers to be quiet and enjoy supporting their DPS doesn't get it and needs to at least attempt to remove the entitlement spoon from said (insert explicit). But we know you/they won't because they feel entitled. I would love to see an xpack that flipped the whole thing on its head and turned heals into dps and dps into heals... Hahaha what a way it would be to go out. I bet every DPS player in the game would be quitting.

    This is flawed. I would be very unbiased in my opinion and I consider myself to have pretty high integrity. I realize there are lots out there that would look to take advantage, but there are enough people out there who would give very fair and unbiased opinions who have the knowledge and experience qualified to help in that way. Most of the top players would be this way. *Disclaimer... I know a few of the best players who would go entirely the other way just because it would give them the laughs for weeks!
  3. Elkana Active Member

    Jrox, why so mad bro? You need a cigar, a plush robe and a nice glass of Single Barrel Jack. It'll take the edge off.
  4. Mermut Well-Known Member

    Not every player is that self-serving...
  5. Drona Well-Known Member


    Yes I agree, it takes a VERY skilled player to parse high as Wizard. Assassins has very high skill cap too.
  6. Jrox Well-Known Member

    What gives the impression I am mad "Bro" lol. Just to the point. No need to mince words or beat aorund the bush here right? I mean since we should be speaking our truths.
  7. Abasinolanam Active Member

    This is exactly what I was talking about. You're basically saying that fun = personal DPS and Acomplishment = personal DPS. I think that's very narrow minded. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I think an illy (my class) or any other support class should be nothing but a buff bot. But if the only way to have fun is to top the parse then all classes would have to parse equally to keep everybody happy (and then nobody would be happy at the same time.)

    I don't think there's any entitlement in saying that if DPS is your only definition of fun, then you should be playing what you find fun. Most healers I know well find an accomplishment in not letting people die, in solo healing successfully, etc. I even know people that would trade in all their DPS spells if they never had to do solo content again. I find doing support roles well to be fun. That means elevating my groupmates not just by my presence but by my choices and skill (timing temp buffs during building chains, RO, keeping everybody with power during heavy power draining raids, mezzing successfully in raids where you would wipe from a missed mez, etc.) All these things give me a sense of accomplishment. My DPS does too, I won't lie. But, to me, giving love to a class can't be simply about raising their DPS. As long as we think that way we're always going to be unhappy, unless we're that one class that came on top that expansion.
  8. Jrox Well-Known Member

    Then I am narrow minded because I want to do DPS as well as run temps and what not... Maybe, but I never said I needed to top the parse. I think a good Illy should be able to sit in the top 5 when played correctly and placed in the right group for it. I think that's being an overachiever not narrow minded. And if you're comfortable being a bot, who am I to tell you you're a lazy player who is along for a free ride? I wouldn't, but that's just me. I would probably just carry you and tell you gg after the fact.

    There are people in these forums, just in the past couple of days, calling for Illy Nerfs where they are not even broken. Oh and yes it was done so by a scout. Not entitled (This is not directed at every scout out there, those that it is meant for know who they are)? Anytime a class other than a scout starts to creep on the parser, they come out of the woodwork looking for a nerf because a scout should never not be #1 on the parse in their minds. My point to that was, what's wrong with a MAGE being on top of the parse. Not necessarily an Illy but more so Wizzy's, Warlock's, and Necro's/Conjy's. C'mon man really?

    Again, you are talking about healers, and good healers parse well. I know templar's and Inqy's that are killing it right now. Just because you are support does not mean you should not be able to parse well. The beginning of this xpack, if you weren't a T1 DPS'er solos were tough and slow going until you got gear. Go figure.

    Relly? Mezzing? What on earth are you mezzing? Mezzing has not been a thing in years. If I was to try and mez something my grp mates would just laugh and keep pounding all targets. There is zero call for it as CC these days and for quite some time now, moving on... My groups know I am pushing the right buttons because when I am with them they see the results, I do find that rewarding, but why do I have to settle for that. The Illy has always been a DPS Chanter as the Coercer has always been able to support entire raids not just one grp.


    I am happy and having fun. But it would be even more awesome if I could continue to stay pushing DPS in raid since I have always done so in the past. I have been playing EQ since 1999. I played a Warrior, Druid and Enchanter in EQ1, and started as a guardian/Brig in EQ2 and picked up the Illy in 2012. Since picking the Illy up in EQ2 I have been near the top in DPS as an Illy and not sure why that should change. If you haven't been, then you haven't been doing it right. Plain and simple.
  9. Semperfifofum Well-Known Member

    Hmmmm.. If a class is easy to play people call is faceroll. Look what happened before beastlord was nerfed. How many locked threads was it? Look what happened when channeler had a bug that let them have essentially infinite DPS. No locked threads this time, people learned better by now.

    Did the player take credit? No.

    Ditto when level 20 characters could powerlevel anyone in dungeon maker. It was a bug or a feature, we weren't sure which, but it was the way the game was and we rolled with it. It was faceroll and it took no skill. And there was plenty of criticism about it.

    Skill always matters in MMO's.
    Argosunited and Jrox like this.
  10. BandageXDA New Member

    ACT was one of the worst things to happen to this game.
    ACT was also one of the best things to happen to this game.
    (yes, many other games as well of course)

    The million threads about class balance in DPS and Heals just weren't a thing. Your group or raid survived to kill the baddies or not, period. Classes had specific roles, and more often than not could not complete content without a rounded group / raid.

    Teams had to figure out the scripting, find solutions, and teach their entire force to follow the plan. Obviously we still have to figure out how to take things down...but so much of it becomes automated after that.

    My only point in bringing it up is a longing for simpler times. Not realistic to think that can ever be experienced again in an MMORPG of course.
    Semperfifofum likes this.
  11. Semperfifofum Well-Known Member

    Well until a few years ago LOTRO would ban people for using Combat Analysis for lag reasons. I'm not sure people use it in Guild Wars but I don't play that very much. I haven't played FFXIV in a while, but iirc you could be banned for using a combat tracker of any kind. As a MMOFRPG, the Darkpaw games are one of the few where we get violently into each other's face about parse. Except for here, you'd have to go to an arena for that sort of toxic negativity. I hardly ever see a parse in chat after a PUG in any game but EQ2.

    Way back in Skyshrine, I used to play a Swashy and without exception, EU players would complement me on support/utility skills while American players would complain about my parse. I'd have to change my playstyle depending on how people sounded in voice chat. LOL People just have different priorities. /shrug
    BandageXDA likes this.
  12. Semperfifofum Well-Known Member

    OTOH I have no idea what you're talking about, my DPS with my coercer has never been this good. And even after the charmed pet weapon being taken off, it's still good. Nobody has ever said in chat "heroic group starting looking for dps, prefer coercer" like ever.

    That's not what enchanters are for, though, the damage is really quite decent right now.
  13. Gregore Active Member

    RIP Coercer class....... I finally betrayed to Illy last night, and wonder why it took me so long to be quite frank. As much as I loved being a Coercer, I will not miss the class, because Illy is so much better.
  14. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    Jrox, I want to make an observation about this statement:
    Then I am narrow minded because I want to do DPS as well as run temps and what not... Maybe, but I never said I needed to top the parse. I think a good Illy should be able to sit in the top 5 when played correctly and placed in the right group for it. I think that's being an overachiever not narrow minded. And if you're comfortable being a bot, who am I to tell you you're a lazy player who is along for a free ride? I wouldn't, but that's just me. I would probably just carry you and tell you gg after the fact.

    I'm not picking on you, but your statement (the one I bolded) is one I hear quite often; substitute "illy" for almost any other class. The problem is, with the number of classes available, there's no way everyone can wedge into the top 5 ranks. And therein lies the problem. Almost every player I have known, met, grouped or even raided with has been literally obsessed with one thing...where they came in on the DPS chart. I say "almost" because some classes have been notoriously lacking in DPS. Sure, healers look at the HPS aspect, but when grouping/raiding is finished, who and what stat draws the attention?

    Part of this problem comes from, in my opinion, from a strong need to reorganize the classes and get rid of the subsets. Take classes like the templar and inqy and combine the best of both and press on. Do we really need so many different tank classes? Can't we take the coercer/illy and do the same? And then build the game around those classes so everyone who plays the class has a vital role. Everyone should have enough dps skills to successfully negotiate the solo content in an expansion. Maybe your templar will take a bit longer, but you can still do it.

    Unfortunately, until we can rein in the obsessive focus on DPS to virtually the exclusion of all other functions, this problem will always be there. And we need to be "okay" with the notion that some classes aren't going to be in the top 5 DPS and they shouldn't be. Part of what this thread is about that Jrox and others talk about is that we have classes that were created and that the majority of their contributions have been minimized as mobs jump from strat to strat in every expac minimizing what players can actually do. When the only thing left for a class is DPS and they weren't created to be a DPS class, something is seriously amiss.

    I think the question on the table is whether DPG has the resources, knowledge and incentive to make this happen. Do I think this might help things--yes. That said, it's only an opinion and you know what they say about those, haha.
    Tangris likes this.
  15. Jrox Well-Known Member

    Bro you can't say that after making these outlandish claims!!!
    Sorry **** isn't working out though... :\
  16. Jrox Well-Known Member

    haha...
  17. Jrox Well-Known Member

    Its only about DPS if you want it to be. If you don't want it to be then give less effort and attention to those that do. I find gaming with those like minded make it more fun for me. Again "for me", I cant tell you whats fun for you or not, so how could you for me? I'm not trying to be rude or talk down to anyone here. I'm just saying the conversation was going on about how the coercers lose again... Do you not think DPS was the largest part of that train of thought? If you play a utility and are happy with how things are for you then that is awesome and amazing for you! Go have sum fun, why are you here? If you want to debate why some feel the class is broken join the conversation and stay real to the reasons being given rather than an excuse of why someone should be having fun your way. i.e. And hardly trying at this point as this zone has become a snooze fest lol...

    https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOduA964FLwZFEwMHVB46mY9aBSy1RBgglXgbiF
  18. Ra'Gruzgob Well-Known Member

    They don't improve dps for coercer just because he is coercer. Tell me, do you have coercer of ancient/very ancient sapience/spell? Or just coercer? There is some sense in this, in terms of effectiveness of his main class spell. But this is too obvious thing. O, if a blue (but preferably green) epic followed him, and hatred of coercer, who subordinated him would be in deep minus (here, here are those useful recommendations that I don’t see. How, tell me, should this hatred be advanced in negative direction as much as possible?)! Well, that is, if you buy what for this need - also an interesting class. Otherwise, it's more tricky/more difficult and he is basically forced to hide somewhere behind the backs of other characters (to seek help from others for sake of his progress). I don’t think that they will want to make his personal damage more powerful, simply because they find this class more-less balanced at this time and suitable for certain type of player. This is one who is just waiting for someone who knows how to properly handle him. So I think lot of coercers are now just on an untimely vacation. There is an important point, I would say key one. When they made him weaker (or rather, mob attacked by coercer stopped being distracted by the drafted one) - at same time, they extended time for submission to him. This point explains everything. See change logs if interested..
  19. Jrox Well-Known Member

    Stop taking drugs now bro. That **** is bad...
  20. Geniusincuba New Member

    I think this xpac we as powerfeeders have got a great role, finding a group is really easy and to keep that blue line always full is our main job, don't get me wrong I enjoy being high on the parse, but this should not be our main focus, we are not supposed to be T1's we are Utilities and that's why I enjoy playing my Illy.
    Breanna likes this.