Coercer Feedback Post-Mana Flow Nerf

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Asurea, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. Asurea Member

    Mana Flow, yes, was bugged for 2-group flow, and yes, it really needed to be fixed. However, after 5 XPacs and a "Feature Pack", six years of play time, it's become such an established fact of life that it's been accounted for in encounter designs. If we're fixing Flow now, either power drains in general need to be reevaluated, or there needs to be some compensation in the other parts of the coercer's toolkit.

    If the devs want to reevaluate power drains, great! They're probably survivable right now, without 2-group flows, if everyone is stopping and using their own power heals, turning off EV and Vigor charms, etc. However, this means that DPS requirements need to be modified in response, as raid-wide DPS will drop significantly (statistically). So, either power drains need to be reduced to allow bards and illies to pick up the loss, or DPS requirements will have to be loosened so the DPS can do what they need to do in order to stay off of 0 power.


    If the devs want to look at coercers' toolkits, well...I think this is needed, regardless. Right now, a number of spells take so long to refresh as to be worthless, and are rarely (if ever) spec'd for. Specifically, Channel and Channeled Focus. Some of our buffs haven't been scaled since SF or earlier, and have aged incredibly poorly. And to make it worse, we require an obscene 15-21 buttons, depending on number of targets and whether we're in melee or at ranged. I'm just going to give a breakdown of our toolkit, and some suggestions to follow. Top section is prior state of power gen, then current state, then suggestions for power gen. Later on are comments on our buff package and play requirements.
    Anjel likes this.
  2. Asurea Member

    • Pre-Nerf Coercer Toolkit (Power Restoration, All Numbers Assume Capped Reuse)
      • Mana Flow
        • 2 target groups
        • 30s cooldown
        • 40% restoration
      • Channeled Focus
        • 1 target group
        • 5m cooldown, 30s duration
        • 100% power cost reduction (except it's never really worked like that, as you still can't cast a spell with 0 power available)
        • Various small buffs to attack speed and casting speed (really, overcapping, so tiny amounts of flurry/doublecast)
        • Significant buff to trigger chance (50% of existing)
        • Almost never spec'd for power cost reduction (see note), and only usually spec'd for trigger chance
        • Still very rarely spec'd, due to insane reuse timer (10% uptime, cooldown longer than most fights)
      • Manasoul
        • Coercer's group only
        • 2.5m cooldown, 10s duration
        • Burns coercer's health for group power
        • Very powerful since STA buff of ToV
      • Channel
        • Coercer's group only
        • 7.5m cooldown
        • Supposedly adds the entire group's power pool and redistributes it evenly across the group
        • Has never really done that, instead usually either resulting in full power group-wide, or minimal effect
        • Apparently has some invisible modifiers
        • Very rarely useful, as it cannot pick the group up off of 0 power, is a "feast or famine" effect, and the cooldown is long enough that multiple raid encounters can be dead before it's ready again
      • Various other miscellaneous
        • This includes Shift Mana (Self Only), Cannibalize Thoughts (Small Value), Mana Cloak (Tanks, really)
        • These are minor enough, either in effect or scope, to be dismissed for the purposes of high-drain raid encounters
      • To summarize, the coercer had the ability to power-heal cross-group once every 30s, plus one additional time every 2.5m, every 5m, and every 7.5m. This is figured as 1 flow to the coercer’s own group, plus a targeting shift to hit a secondary group, every 30s, plus an opportunity to instead flow two other groups and ignore the coercer’s own each time a cooldown comes up, with the assumption that the cooldown fully covers the coercer’s own group. Over 15 minutes, that means they could go cross-group 41 times
    Anjel likes this.
  3. Asurea Member

    • Post-Nerf Changes
      • Mana Flow
        • 1 target group
        • 30s cooldown
        • 40% restoration
      • Effectively, this is a nerf to total power output of a coercer
      • While individuals can probably account for this using their own minor self-only power buffs, and cancelling some of the best DPS buffs in the game, it necessitates a significant drop in raid DPS to do so
      • This reduces the opportunities to power heal outside of one's group by 30 times, down to once every 2.5m, 5m, and 7.5m. Over 15 minutes, that's 11 times, a net reduction in our raid power-gen opportunities of 73% over 15 minutes of sustained combat
    Anjel likes this.
  4. Asurea Member

    • Proposed Changes
      • Mana Flow
        • 1 target group
        • 20s cooldown (40s before reuse)
        • 40% restoration
      • Manasoul
        • I wouldn't change this spell at all. It is a risk vs reward spell that works exactly as advertised with an appropriate cooldown for its effect
      • Channeled Focus
        • 1 target group
        • 1.5m or 2.5m cooldown (3m or 5m before reuse)
        • Fix power cost reduction to work as advertised
        • If going with the 1.5m cooldown, I would suggest lowering trigger chance buff from 50% to 33%. Otherwise, I would leave it alone
        • Results in a 33% or 20% uptime for a solid buff, and allows the coercer to safely Flow cross-group more often
      • Channel
        • 1 group, either the coercer's only, or a target group
        • 50% restoration
        • 2.5m cooldown (5 min before reuse)
        • Makes the effect predictable, functional, and reliably usable
      • If we go with the 20s flow and 1.5m CF, and modify Channel as suggested, then over 15 minutes, we get 15 "extra" flows, 10 opportunities to flow elsewhere due to CF, 6 from Manasoul, and 6 from Channel, for 37 opportunities in 15 minutes. This results in a net reduction of our raid-wide power gen of just under 10% from the pre-nerf, which is more realistic for some of the end-game high-drain encounters (*cough* Klandicar *cough*)
      • If the idea is to move more of the power-restoring burden onto the other classes, then I would suggest leaving Flow at 30s, performing the change I suggested for Channel, and taking CF to 2.5m while leaving the proc buff rate at 50%. This still gives us 18 opportunities, a decrease from pre-nerf of 54%, but still much less dramatic
        • If this route is taken, an overall streamlining of coercer DPS and/or modernizing our buff package is likely in order
          • For a class that does low-end utility DPS, we have an absurd 15-21 buttons that have to be used to produce optimal DPS (depending on whether we're at range or in melee, single-target or AE)
          • Our buff package is decent, but not on the same level it was even 1-2 XPacs ago
            • Enraging Demeanor
              • Hate+hate transfer (which is minimal, given our DPS)
              • No concentration cost
            • Coercive Healing
              • One of the best healer buffs in the game, if not THE best. Of limited use to Channelers, and should be updated to include them, but otherwise would not change
              • No concentration cost
            • Siren’s Stare
              • A unique buff for fighters that really doesn’t require any modification
              • No concentration cost
            • Peaceful Link
              • By itself, provides passive hate reduction
              • One AA improves this by adding a hate reduction proc
              • Works find for its hate reduction function
              • Another AA, that costs 5 points, adds 5% CB to Plink
              • This AA goes back to SF, where it was a 5-10% damage boost, depending on the target
              • Nowadays, the same 5 points provide less than 1% damage boost solo, and in a raid setting, <0.5%
              • I would suggest doubling the buff value, directly, or even tripling it
              • 1 concentration/target
            • Velocity
              • 5% CB to group. Effectively 30% CB, again dating back to SF, and again for 5 points
              • Much like Plink, this AA effect needs buffing
              • Beyond that, the effect was changed to 100 MA
              • Given the flip from DPS to MA, and the inverting of these stats (a move I approve of), this should have been a net zero
              • However, given the extraordinary prevalence of MA, I would suggest changing this effect to approximately 1/3rd of the MA in DPS (so more like 30-35 DPS mod)
              • 1 concentration for the group
            • Magi’s Shielding
              • With the focus for it, it scales beautifully (10% max health)
              • The other effects on this spell are outdated and underpowered, but since it takes no concentration, this is a minimal complaint
              • Overall, should not be altered significantly
            • Siren’s Gift
              • Myth buff
              • Helps define class
              • Should not be changed
            • Breeze/Mind’s Eye
              • Lumping these together as they overlap on effects
              • 120 power heal to group/tick
              • Extremely negligible and outdated
              • 15% Cast Speed from Breeze focus only notable effect
              • Effectively are only cast due to no concentration cost
              • Combine these into a single buff and increase its power regen by 2x-5x would be my recommendation
            • Power of Mind
              • Tiny max power boost/arcane resist boost to group
              • Pretty much everyone is capped on resists
              • 1 concentration for the group
              • <1% boost to max power is not worth a concentration slot, ever
              • I don’t even know how to begin to make this worth casting again, other than remove the concentration requirement and increase the max power gain by around 15x
            • Signet of Intellect
              • Int/Agi and contested avoidance groupwide buff
              • Contested avoidance remains essentially useless in a raid environment
              • Int/Agi result in 0.6%-0.7% increases in DPS for mages and scouts
              • Actually superior to Velocity or Plink for raw DPS if everyone in the coercer’s group could benefit
              • Since coercers are usually kept in tank groups, this reduces the benefit to 2 people
              • Together with concentration cost, this makes this spell of minimal usefulness
              • I would suggest doubling of the INT/AGI values, changing the contested avoidance to approximately 20%-25% of current value in uncontested, and possibly adding STR to this buff, while leaving the concentration requirement
              • Making this spell worth casting would reduce us from 4 Plinks to 3, which mitigates the direct gains from buffing this spell
          • If we’re to no longer be the raid’s solution to power woes, I would highly suggest the following steps
            • Reduce the number of spells we need to cast
              • Combine secondary effects and damage while increasing cast time, resulting in similar damage per time unit with fewer button presses
              • This has the added benefit of reducing server load
            • Update coercer’s buff package to be truly relevant to today’s raid environment
    Anjel, Mindsway and Kraeref like this.
  5. Asurea Member

    Now that that's all up (way too much for a single post...so my apologies for the triple-post and wall of text), I'd like to encourage discussion on what can be done to help reduce/mitigate the excessive impact of the change to Mana Flow, without completely reversing it. Please no complaining about the fact that the nerf happened; there's not exactly much we can do about that.
    Anjel likes this.
  6. Kraeref Well-Known Member

    Could not agree more wiith proposed changes to coercers, Asurea. Your words in devs ears.
    Thanks!
  7. Asurea Member

    Thanks. I was still touching a few parts of it up. I'm trying to address real concerns without going too far in the other direction, so if any part of it appears excessive, please point it out!
  8. Asurea Member

    For giggles and illumination, I'm including my casting priority list, to explain what I mean by 21 buttons.

    For melee:
    Peace of Mind
    Tashiana
    Obliterated Psyche
    Spellbind
    Psychic Trauma
    Ether Balance
    Hostage
    Destructive Mind
    Arcane Bewilderment
    Counterblade
    Spell Curse
    Brainshock
    Puppetmaster
    Shock Wave
    Stupefy (If PoM is up)
    Daydream
    Cannibalize Thoughts
    Asylum
    And, very rarely, Medusa Gaze can be squeezed in.
    Add in clicky charms, and you have 21 buttons. To DPS. Outside of the charms (Killing Chamber, 2 min) and Tashiana (1m12s), nothing in that list has a reuse above 60s. And we aren't even including the six power heal buttons (Flow, Cloak, Manasoul, Channel, Shift Mana, Channeled Focus) or non-DPS temp buffs (Coercive Shout, Intellectual Remedy, Sever Hate). Please note I'm not even casting Nullifying Staff, Silence, Hemorrhage, or Mind Bend. Mind Bend, for anyone who's wondering why I don't use it, is technically a DPS boost if fully spec'd into and utilized perfectly, but is something that has to be carefully watched to prevent you recasting over it. Unlike Hostage or Spell Curse, it doesn't proc on someone else hitting the mob, but on the mob hitting someone.

    To simplify this mess, turn the Daydream AA into a damage buff to Brainshock. Combine Spell Curse and Hostage into a single spell that procs off any hit for a comparable number of triggers and strikes. Turn Destructive Mind into a constant proc buff, sort of like a Wizard's Blade of Ro, but only on one target (self or other) and no concentration cost. Remove the Forceful Headache portion of Asylum (It's more DPS-efficient to recast it before the 24s is up, than to wait), replace that with Cannibalize Thoughts' INT debuff. Spread Cannibalize Thoughts' DPS out among other primary spells. Extend Shock Wave's stun duration by half of Stupefy, fold Stupefy into Shock Wave, and make the Repeated Shockwave Prestige give Shock Wave a chance to reset itself. That eliminates 6 buttons. I do kind of like the dumbfire Puppetmaster, but unfortunately, I'd be willing to say drop it and fold the damage into other spells, with the multitude of problems dumbfires have this expansion, and in the interest of removing a 7th button and, again, reducing server load (it's adding 4 more actors to the fight for 8s with their own spells and melee swings).
    Anjel likes this.
  9. Ucala Well-Known Member

    casting priority :p
  10. Mountbatten Well-Known Member

    Don't worry, Manatap to the rescue!
  11. Kraeref Well-Known Member

    It is rather ridiculous how many buttons (spells and CAs) we have to squeeze in our rotation :)))
  12. Plinc Active Member

    seriously, reducing the amount of stuff available to cast is almost as braindead as converging all of the above into 1 hotbar (9 utility buttons and 1 dps macro)
  13. Asurea Member

    Really? What is brain dead about folding redundant DPS spells' or debuffs' effects into fewer spells? I would understand concerns about stuns, stifles, and other temporary disables, which is why I avoided suggesting more than one of those (Shock Wave/Stupefy), as reducing those would create possible issues in PvP, Group, and Solo content.

    My suggestion there, if you bother to read it, is not to reduce the effect that we have, but to merge effects to create room for other abilities to be worked in without resulting in significant DPS loss.

    And you completely ignored the primary post.
  14. GIndotto Well-Known Member

    Lots to soak in here, I will say that a good majority of the classes have redundant spells \ CAs atm. So I dont know if Coercer is alone in that regard (but having one I agree the buttons are VAST! =P).

    What is your take Asurea on removing or heavily nerfing the power increase on EV? In your previous post you mentioned the lack of dbl flows presented problems on fights (currently standing ones without adjustments like in POW \ 4 well Drinal had) that require dps to maintain EV (this could or could not include nerfing the power cost on the charm, I could see the charm being kept intact so that having one on to give a self EV would have some risk on power fights, and the coercer EV would be the golden egg).
  15. GIndotto Well-Known Member

    P.S. thanks for the superlative post on your cast priority. My coercer lacked some insight on cast order and besides all the banter it was insightful!
  16. Asurea Member

    It's not perfect, but pretty solid. Precast things like Ethereal Balance, only cast Oblit with Tash (Really right before, you want to be nuking through Tash, but I mentally link them together because Oblit's duration and Tash's reuse align so closely).

    Anyhow, EV. Your suggestion is interesting, in that it pulls some preference back to the coercer's version. However, without the added power drain, it becomes "crazy super buff" without any risk component for the reward. Honestly, no one is going to like my personal opinion, which is "Delete the f****** charm from the game", especially since the DPS requirements are high even with it. It's just not practical to remove, despite my preference. As to your suggestion, my concern would be the buff from the charm becoming far too powerful, to the point of hanging around for multiple expansions. If you only changed the coercer's EV, then you'd need to look at buffing Shaman Stampede vs Killing Chamber, etc.

    I think the real solution lies in power restoration, and shifting the responsibility for making the choice to EV or not a real decision on the part of the players, balanced by a larger need to cover their own power needs and relying less on the coercers. I just think this nerf goes too far in that direction.

    For redundant spells, absolutely, it's a problem across the game, but I'll let other people point out the redundancy in their own class spellbooks!
  17. Plinc Active Member

    i did not ignore the primary post. having to run an alt coercer myself i can totaly agree that removing the ability to feed 2 groups needs to be compensated.
    but you do not compensate Mana Management by simplifying damage cast orders.
    you started by giving feed back on the Mana flow fix and than derailed your own thread.
    gj i guess?
  18. Asurea Member


    ...And you still didn't actually address any of my points. There are four posts full of legitimate things to critique directly related to power management, if you have no concerns for quality of life improvements. Please actually provide feedback, or find another thread to troll.

    Quality of Life improvements should be begged for after any nerf, anyways.
    Kraeref likes this.
  19. Asurea Member

    I actually have an alternative option to my own Channel suggestion that brings some of that "Hurts some to help others" play back, without rendering it useless when things are most dire. Have it set the members of the targeted group's current mana to 50% of each person's maximum.
  20. Ucala Well-Known Member

    I think atm it's pretty clear there needs to be no changes to coercers "balancing" and there is actually another forum explaining that coercer dps is also not needed for balancing since a russian proposed (and many, including myself agreed) that a coercer dps and an illy dps are equal already, an illy just clearly gets a better group for dps then a coercer does (in normal raid set ups)
    Anjel likes this.