Class balancing

Discussion in 'General Gameplay Discussion' started by TheCrux, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. TheCrux Member

    I am loving the EoF itemization thus far, and the original "feel" of this game. This has probably been the best version of the TLE IMO so far in terms of mob health/mitigation to overall DPS and the risk vs. the rewards dropped. I say well done on those points.

    However, the 1 issue that I feel that has been in need of remedying since the TLE launch would be the current class balancing which is almost backwards from the original game.

    Necromancers are severely overpowered to the point where any and all fabled raid geared characters that aren't a necro would get destroyed by a mediocre necro using a combination of treasured/legendary gear and Lifeburn which is disgustingly OP for an already OP caster utility class.

    Ultimately, it would almost be better for a raid to drop every other DPS class and just pickup any necro willing to raid, while dropping the sins / rangers, conj / wizards / warlocks as they have 0 chance to compete IMO.

    Alongside the necro's EoF tanking abilities, they are the jack of all trades while doing each of those trades better than anyone else. They have better tools (borked for TLE since the start) to DPS than pure mages or assassins, who should have the tools to top the parse as they have 0 utility, however in the TLE, equally geared they are behind Necros 100% for sure.

    Necro's were a single target utility caster class in original, a Tier 2 DPS class. Since the start of TLE, they have taken over all roles as DPS while maintaining that utility, and the fundamental reason we don't see as many wizards/warlocks/assassins; why play a pure mage / predator when you can play a utility necro that does OP dps? can tank, can rez, has 0 mana issues like a pure dps class does, and will always top the parse with lifeburn (assuming equal gear).

    This issue has been beaten to death already, but I think it is high time we see some class balancing hit the TLE; why are utility casters destroying the DPS of any other pure DPS class that has little to no utility?

    Correct me if I am wrong but:

    Original Game, Single Target:
    1. Wizards / Assassins
    2. Warlock / Brigand / Necro
    3. Conj / Swash

    Original Game, Multi Target:
    1. Warlock / Swash
    2. Conj / Wizards / Assassins
    3. Necro / Brig

    TLE, Single Target
    1. Necro (stands alone) + Can raid tank
    2. Conj + Can raid tank
    3. Ranger/Sin/Wizard
    4. Warlock

    TLE, Multi Target
    1. Necro (stands alone) + Can raid tank
    2. Conj + Can raid tank / Warlock
    3. Ranger/Sin/Wizard

    *assuming equally geared, there is no other DPS class that can touch a necro in EoF, and now they can pet tank better than 95% of the tanks on Stormhold.

    I think once this disparity is locked down by the devs, we could truly see a great balanced game, the roles are just a bit wonky at the moment to me with necromancers doing 3k-6k-9k DPS more than nearly anyone else.

    Breaking out the kleenex to dry my tears.
    Microman likes this.
  2. BulletCatcher66 Active Member

    But you couldn't stop yourself from swinging on this clearly decayed corpse just one more time could ya?

    You're Wrong.

    Original Game, Single Target:
    1. Ranger / [dont remeber/dont care; not a ranger]
    2. [dont remeber/dont care; not a ranger] / [dont remeber/dont care; not a ranger]
    3. [dont remeber/dont care; not a ranger] / [dont remeber/dont care; not a ranger]
    Look friend. They can't make certain changes because of the effects it would have on live servers.
    Are you gonna stop beating this to death now?
    Arielle Nightshade likes this.
  3. TheCrux Member

    The only way to get this issue noticed is to post, and while it wasn't overly crazy bad in the past and we saw some light in KoS, it has become significantly worse with EoF.

    The only time Rangers would top the parse consistently over other classes IMO in a server first/WW guild was in T6 when poisons were broken, once fixed, they were not as effective as Assassins ST. But yes, I forgot to include them, thanks :p
  4. Ap0k Member

    haha good to see you back man the TLE sorc channel has been boring without you, I recently just came back to the game as well after a little hiatus, loving it again myself.

    Saw this post linked in our discord and felt I should chime in. Albeit, I am way behind in EoF gear to make any valid comparison I do agree with most if not all your points here, the struggle has been real vs. summoners on the parse since I first raided TLE Rognog in T5 and my jaw dropped seeing a necro in horrible gear destroy my parse; my bro Falco (the sexy legend) and I were usually hand in hand with DPS so I knew what I was doing, having never ever lost to a necro during original.

    Protoflame/Crushing is my best DPS spell/attack surpassing even Ice Comet (that says something in of itself regarding changes) while maintaining the hate issues/power issues from back when I played/raided on a server first guild in original (Although I was a coercer by this time)

    Yes, things are different this go around, procs are not as good, items have changed, and drastic changes have been made to classes for better or for worse, and the TLE is taking the culmination of these changes made from over the years from original/Live and funneled them right into the TLE.

    If they change anything on the TLE regarding these mechanics, they change them for live as well, and this issue will probably never see the light of day regarding any change. I deal with it by saving my zonewides and just competing against myself weekly.

    I think our only hope is for that live thread to gain some traction revolving around the issues wizards/warlocks are currently seeing on live, and hoping those potential changes can bring some balance to our archetype in the TLE at some point, or as Onra said, making drastic changes to the class gear perhaps to line things up a bit better in terms of tiered DPS and who should be doing what.

    I personally stand by my opinion in that having every aspect of the TLE linked to live, was one of the worst things that has ever happened to this game while I was apart of it. Didn't last long enough originally to see the statflation, but seeing it in the TLE I can see why this would be amongst the top as well.

    We are the last of our kind, too stubborn to quit w/ a side of masochism for the nostalgia of our once top dps class.

    Talk soon,
    TheCrux likes this.
  5. Sprok Active Member

    The two main issues currently are tank pet stat scaling, and Necromancer EoF endlines.

    In terms of DPS efficiency by class on TLE right now I don't think the disparity is as large as people make it out to be. The general issue is that Summoners are the easiest class to play, so the other classes just have to be better to compete, but baring Lifeburn the classes measure up quite a bit better than this.

    Single Target
    1. Necro (Lifeburn nearly singularly makes this happen.)
    2. Conj, Ranger, Assassin, Wizard
    3. Illusionist, Swash, Warlock, Brigand (With a good double-up chain, Brig can spike to tier 2.)

    1. Necro, (Issue here is generally Undead Horde, however this jump isn't as much the issue as the EoF endlines.)
    2. Conj, Swash, Warlock, Illusionist, Berserker, Wizard, Ranger, Assassin (This tier is ordered in such a way as to show which class has the edge in this style of encounter, however depending on cooldowns, buffs, gearing, and player skill these classes will move around on any given AoE encounter.)
    3. Brigand
  6. Ap0k Member

    If it wasn't him, it would have probably been me 2-3 weeks down the road.

    How would you feel playing a ranger in original EQ2, coming back after X amount of years to find out troubs were destroying you in the parse, not by a little, but by 6-9k. Probably not so well. Friend.
    Jaden and TheCrux like this.
  7. Lithinor Member

    lol this whole thread got me to wondering if the devs are actually confusing things that needed to be correct for necros on live with necros on tle because originally necros were never topping the parse
  8. Ap0k Member

    At least everyone else now gets to feel how the sorcs felt during TLE T5/T6.
    I guess that's a form of a consolation prize.
  9. Sprok Active Member

    I'm still convinced that beyond Lifeburn, DPS levels are mostly fine, a good Assassin/Ranger would be keeping up with current itemization and AAs, where as Wizards/Warlocks may need a little help catching up; however again, with some of the tools they have from AAs they should be competitive.

    Saying that Predators are in a bad spot DPS wise by looking at what our guild puts out is pretty disingenuous, considering they are either newer applicants with no gear, or have a sub-par group set up.
    TheCrux likes this.
  10. Desmona Member

    Just return mit scaling back to it's original levels. I don't see the need to go cray cray with itemization. Right now pets can reach 65%+ mit with the correct buffs whereas a plate tank even with the same mit levels can barely surpass 54%.

    On EQ1 TLE they have a blanket pet debuff that scales the pet down. I'm sure something similar can be done here.
  11. TheCrux Member

    I thought KoS was pretty balanced from what I played of it, and I would have to agree Sprok, the issue here is more or less purely a few of the necro EoF AA's. All other classes are pretty much on par and I like what I see.

    However, after reading all this, I have to tend to agree there is no easy solution, or a solution at all. Upgraded class sets would see those classes with an upgraded set, passing on gear until the fabled version drops - severely limiting itemization of raids/dungeons, and with no chance of adjusting the mechanics, it seems to be a case of: it is what it is. Jealousy I guess, the sorc OP stage was bypassed by the summoners dominating T5 with the pet changes and the upgraded armor catering to rangers. It feels like the sorc stage is over and out without it even starting, a sad shell of what once used to be strong.

    Then again there are only 2-3 raiding wizards/warlocks left on Stormhold, so catering to us is pretty moot at this point.

    P.S Apok check your PM's on flames ffs.
  12. Sprok Active Member

    I wouldn't say that the Wizards time is over, the goods ones still topped parses through RoK until live currently, you just have to work harder for it, with that in mind, the closer we get to live, the more the classes will balance out the way they are currently designed.

    The current design philosophy has Predators, Sorcs, and Summoners all as T1s, this isn't your grandpa's T5 - T7 where Summoners were a T2 or worse. With the current way the game is built, those 6 classes should be on par, not with one vastly ahead of another.
  13. Satyr Well-Known Member

    I haven't started raiding yet in this expansion, but even before the release of the expansion I think we all knew lifeburn would be overpowered. Surely the number of necros you can take on a raid are limited by the healing needed to support life burn, which makes them less viable on fights with nasty AOEs and limits the number you can support in a raid at 3 or potentially 4?
  14. rutro Active Member are one loco guy? Did you not see that the tank pet had 3 times the!
  15. Lithinor Member

    nah, necros can heal lifeburn well enough with group wide heals and their own heals, as long as they aren't lazy (lifetap and health transfer targeting themselves). only time a healer really needs to focus thru it is when mob dmg is higher than usual on necro
  16. Sprok Active Member

    Satyr - Yeah, I don't think anything past 3 Necromancers would be sustainable.

    Rutro - Are you illiterate? I clearly said DPS levels are mostly fine, not the ability for pets to tank.
  17. Sprok Active Member

    This is a gross understatement for raid encounters, it takes a Fury and Paladin full time healing the Necro during Lifeburn.
  18. Lithinor Member

    the problem here isn't the necro :p i've never had an issue with healing and lifeburn in raid encounters except where i wasn't paying attention. otherwise necro lifeburn healing rotation is definitely enough to keep it going

    edit: maybe it is the necro, i've always found that i've done things a bit differently than other players, regardless my heal rotation would be (as soon as lifeburn starts) lifetap, transfer life, lifetap, blood cloud, repeat or cancel depending on the situation (ie everyone moves or something) the best thing for necro to use is transfer life targeting themselves tho, everything else just softens the hit while that replenishes a decent amount on top of group heals
  19. Sprok Active Member

    I don't think you're comprehending what I'm saying, this is the best geared Necromancer on the server, 21k hp in raids before temp buffs (Fury HP temp, and Bolster), the amount of incoming damage from lifeburn is astronomical. It is mechanically impossible for what you're saying to be accurate on EoF TLE raid content.
  20. Lithinor Member

    i don't think you're paying attention... i've done it. gear != skill. your necro is messing up. it is very possible