Casting speed / Haste Overcap and Reforging

Discussion in 'General TLE Discussion' started by Inmyprime, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Inmyprime Member

    With the addition of the new expansion, Blood of Luclin on live servers, there was also a change to how stats are calculated. Although, these new stat calculations may be necessary for live servers, they carry over to TLE servers. As of right now, there is no overcap conversion of casting speed to ability double cast and haste to flurry respectively. With how itemization has been implemented on Kaladim, mages are already near the cap of Casting speed and Reuse speed during the Eof expansion while solo. With raid and group buffs alike, mages are forced to gear into stats such as multi attack and DPS mod which hardly add anything to their outgoing potential. I do believe that the haste conversion is a non issue due to the fact that apparently 4 casting speed or 4.8 multi attack is equivalent to 4.3 haste on Kaladim.

    Is there ever going to be a possibility that in the future, Kaladim could see the conversion cap restriction lifted? I for one do not know what else we would be gearing for as mages in future expansions assuming that even in ROK, pieces of gear will have well over 5+ casting and/or 5+ reuse. This does not take group buffs and AA specs into consideration. As far as I see it, a solution to what we are seeing now and going forward will be the re-administration of casting speed overcap conversion or Reforging.

    For the case of reforging, there are many complaints throughout the game for every class lacking stats that they wish they had on pieces of gear either class assigned or a proc being more helpful for a particular arch type . For example, contested Mayong drops an ear that on a beneficial spell cast, it has a chance to increase the target's mitigation of worn armor by 10%, but the blue stats are multi attack and ability mod. The earring is called 'Hoop of the Chosen'. If reforging were enabled, this clearly Main tank healer specific earring would be able to be converted to more useful stats aside from multi attack. I would like to add, that currently there are many sought after pieces of gear that consist of exactly the stats certain classes require and it is interesting to gear as if you are filling in a puzzle, that being said, this leaves MANY pieces of gear to be useless in every aspect of the word. I can guarantee that no melee based class would take a piece with 0.9 AE mod and 4.3 haste over a piece that has 4.8 multi attack and 8.1 DPS mod or some amount of flurry. Yet some classes are forced into these pieces because they are class assigned as in the case from raid pattern drops. What ends up happening, is that this piece is just transmuted or sold to a vendor. For the sake of the game, it is healthy that some pieces see this fate, but it shouldn't be seen from clearing a Raid instance. Instead, allow for reforging the less sought after blue stats to be converted to better stats while still maintaining the upgrade in critical chance and potency.

  2. Inmyprime Member

    Side note: The values we receive on gear for AE auto, Haste and Ability modifier seem weak in comparison.
  3. Naneeje Well-Known Member

    The values are interesting, but still fun to play with. We can't reforge yet, but when we can, I will live around the forge, set up a donut shop, discuss options in chat.
    I think there was some definite calculation questions, such as 0.3 reuse on a greater adornment but yet 2.5 casting speed.
    15 Defense doesn't add anything to your stats, so those are either worthless or you can't see the addtional values.
    Level 65 treasured gear with 4.5 reuse, 4 casting? That's exactly equal to the raid set from FTH.
    So while there are a few instances of questionable stat choices, overall, definitely playable and fun.
    Reforging didn't come out until what.. Age of Discovery? ALtar? No, I think Age. So as much as I would love to see it in game now, doubt it. But... if you are asking for a "yeeeeaaayyy" from the guy in the back trying to incite the crowd, that's me!
    Semperfifofum likes this.
  4. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    I'm in the strong 'No' for reforging until AoD.

    The entire stat equivalencies doesn't work for how itemization is planned out now. If reforging was put into game, I would just take every piece of gear in game with casting speed on it, be the sole stat that I itemize for, reforge it into 100% reuse with around 25% casting speed, cap my recovery.

    I would then sit there and wonder what the entire point of this entire operation was, this is of course assuming no efforts are made to fix the current reforging values down to a more adjustable TLE value. If this is even possible without a serious recoding effort i'm unsure/doubtful. Even if it is changed formula wise to be more friendly to TLE, you're gonna run into the same issue in that: one stat is gonna have the best conversion rate, and seeing as how you can find every item in game with that particular stat, you're gonna run into serious issues of people just wearing that one stat layout then reforging into everything else.

    Regarding the overcap casting speed, majority of people are only hitting 100% with buffs and adornments/AA's Chad. If you remove all adornments and AA's that opens up serious spec changes, and readorning.

    I was gaining 6% Spell Double from 100% casting speed overcap on Fallen Gate. I just checked a parse from DoV, 35k was being added to my parse on a 250k parse from SDA (not accounting for Time Warp for best memes here), I had 24% static roughly. 25% (6% SDA of my 24% SDA) of my SDA damage was from the overcap SDA, meaning I would've lost 8k damage, from a 250k parse. But I would've surely dropped all my casting speed adornment and gone into other stats, meaning the losses wouldn't of been as extreme.

    Overall, who cares. With the rate that gear is going, you're gonna reach cap Casting Speed with 0 AA's/Adornments and just Monk/Bard around TSO, which by then you can just spec out of the Agility Line, Adornments, and go for other gear if your heart desires it. SF has a ton of group procs to force you to run specific pieces anyway, and you have red adornments to play with. I guess it would be cool if we could add 6% SDA to our parses and add another 5-10% to our raid wide.
    dirgenoobforreal likes this.
  5. Inmyprime Member

    The problem is that I do not see a future for mage gear if there is no returns for getting Casting speed over cap and the ability mod values being so low. The only gear that my "heart" would desire is gear with multi attack and DPS mod because I would get absolutely no benefit from anything else. Even if casting speed has diminishing returns, it will have returns.

    You claim that we are not at cap without buffs while I sit at 100 casting and 80 reuse in raid. Are you suggesting we should remove raid buffs and adorns? Because you speak of them as if it's a side thought. Adornment values and buffs that can be upgraded will only make it easier to reach the caps as the game progresses. As of right now, you can get about 44 casting speed from raid buffs and adornments alone. That does not include Primal Jury, Jester's Cap, Time Compression or AA's.

    A solution should be to add SDA in small amounts to gear or to remove the casting speed over cap, this will make mage gear desirable to mages even if they are capped on stats. Also, there's hardly a point to stack on REUSE for Confront Fear reuse conversion to potency because on fights that matter, DPS does not receive that buff for that utility.

    The conversion rates for reforging should not be a reason to be on the strong 'No' side. The conversion rates can be adjusted. Your reasoning is flawed.
    Semperfifofum likes this.
  6. Semperfifofum Well-Known Member

    I would guess on the defense, that for mages, that stat does matter in a survivable way. I used to have separate solo gear at level 40-60 with lots of defense and it made a big diff. But that was years ago now. The way defense works now, you'd have to add the ability for your mage to parry in AAs. Then it makes a difference. I'm not sure if it adds to mitigation, but it seemed to. I also could never actually see the difference, in any stat but Avoidance.
  7. Semperfifofum Well-Known Member

    As a general rule, since on Live the DPS value in BoL needs to be around 5k to be good, I don't see why Haste and Casting Speed overcap don't give a dps bonus that would be appropriate for the lower levels and stops increasing after level 98 (to avoid the millions of expacs that are at 100 and are at different stat levels). If that cap on DPS bonus from that would stop at say, 800 (level 98), and would be around 200 at level 50, 300/60, 400/70, 500/80, 600/90, 700/95. I don't know for sure but I think that would be ok, or something like it. Its effect on BoL would be negligible.

    I also don't see why wand-ranged isn't just using physical stats like a x-bow. We're already way past any "realistic" use of math. Or give mages slingshots, but you'd have to go backward and provide them from level 1 onward and I suspect that's too much to ask for.
  8. Rayzor Member

    I'm also exceeding the casting/reuse cap on my wizard with raid buffs. Reforging seems like a reasonable fix, yet still leaves me focusing on blue stats that aren't rewarding to me - DPS/MA/Haste/Offensive skills? The real issue is that the ability modifier values are just completely out of scale. This thread mentions it and it has been mentioned repeatedly on this forum. It's something like: 4.0 casting = 4.6 reuse = 25 ability mod. That isn't remotely equitable.

    Can we just run a script that basically says new_ability_mod = old_ability_mod * some_factor. I feel like 4 would be about right, but I'm not sure how to do the math.

    I agree that on this expansion we might be okay just barely hitting the caps with the best gear, but come Kunark where everything gets upgraded, we'll need some solution to these problems.
    Inmyprime likes this.
  9. Sixgauge Active Member

    A new TLE server would be one solution :rolleyes:
    Inmyprime likes this.
  10. Inmyprime Member

    I was honestly thinking that maybe they don't intend the server lasting long enough for it to matter.
  11. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    You're not really being honest about your true values. With 0 AA's for casting/Reuse I'm at around 53% Casting speed with nearly a full roster of casting speed adornments (Wrists for resists), and 66% reuse. In raids with Bard/Monk I only sit at 70% cast/66% reuse. I also know for a fact I have nearly the best gear on server. I could be higher assuming I didn't wear the shield and the earring off mayong, in which case I'd maybe break 75% reuse and 65% Casting speed. But, as i'll explain later; now you can take procs instead of itemizing for reuse/casting speed when you reach this high.
    Reuse Speed:
    Casting Speed:
    Recovery Speed:

    Chad, this is with you speccing Agility line (14% Cast/12% Reuse BTW), and having FIVE casting speed adornments. I'm no expert here but, i'm pretty sure you could spec into Intelligence line, or focus/distruption AA, etc. etc. This is also with you stacking a few pieces of gear that don't have ability mod to maximize these two stats.

    "You claim that we are not at cap without buffs while I sit at 100 casting and 80 reuse in raid. Are you suggesting we should remove raid buffs and adorns? Because you speak of them as if it's a side thought. Adornment values and buffs that can be upgraded will only make it easier to reach the caps as the game progresses."

    Read above but i'll reiterate for clarity, you're clearly only reaching cap by spec choices/adornments/gear choices. You can drop spec/adornments/gear and gain a ton of efficiency, just from going into ability mod on gear next expansion/future expansions instead of wearing gear with both casting speed/reuse. Not to mention stop wearing casting speed adornments. If you had UT/Monk/Bard/PF, you at most can get 45% Casting speed. You're not getting the latter buff, and the monk is up for discussion as to if it will be around by the time you get UT.

    Is Albus getting the ultimate Juice right now with TC/PF/JCAP etc. Yes, but he's just an expansion or two ahead of you, what does he do? Wear ability mod gear and change his adornments around. By the time you reach TSO on this server MAYBE you will be able to reach cap cast/reuse without the addition of adornments/spec choices, but by then you're gonna wear a lot of pieces based on procs, or just start wearing a few pieces of scout gear that have melee auto stats, how is that really that difficult. Imagine that, you wear 3-4 pieces with just MA/Flurry on them instead of going for another casting/reuse itemized item and reforging it into whatever that ring had.

    The conversion rates has everything to do with the 'no' side, that's why reforging is an awful idea, and why it always was. Was it a great design when my old gear during ToV had casting speed options which allowed me to reforge into more reuse than the next expansions gear had on it in the same slot? No. Was it a great design when I was stacking adornments and reforging 60% Casting Speed into cap MA/200 DPS Mod, when gear had a 1/3rd of the dps mod/MA itemizied, No. This is exactly why reforging here would just be dumb, i'm doubtful it will ever get to a good rate.

    I literally outlined it above (previous post), even if it's an equal conversion rate across the board what do I gain from not just wearing a different piece of gear. Hmm 5% casting speed = what they itemize the MA on pieces, whats the point in that. Just wear a piece with MA, or change specs/adornments. You haven't even come close to exhausting your current ability to change specs/gear/adorns to adjust for the rampant casting speed/reuse itemization.

    I feel as if this entire thought process/campaign for Reforging is a huge waste of limited Developer time.

    When we reached TSO on Fallen Gate the solution to this was quite literally just to slap 30 dps mod/ma/haste on every item in the game that mages wore and call it a day, and what happened? I reached cap on all three solo buffed and then laughed when my auto started to parse below fae fires in ROK/TSO because the mobs reached level 88.

    Side note chad: seeing as how mages/priests have such an easy time capping both of these stats, did you ever consider that suddenly JCAP won't be a mage buff, and turn into a scout/tank buff full time?
    /Thread /Chad.

    I feedbacked 25 mod = 4.6% reuse in T5 of Kaladim and it fell on deaf ears.
  12. Inmyprime Member

    At the moment I am one piece away from being able to spec out of the AGILITY line by moving some pieces around. As of right now we are sitting pretty at just below cap. But, its the future expansions that I worry about. When adornments are upgraded and each piece of raid gear will have 5 or more casting speed. I removed 4 of the 7 casting adornment slots to be replaced with resists and still sit near cap in raid. I get that in the future we could remove all 7 slots and replace them with say, crit or primary stats. But for what the values offer in comparison, they are weak and we are having to settle for less because the conversion from casting speed has been removed. Maybe the casting speed adornments need a nurf instead.

    My idea for Reforging stems from a previous forum post regarding that not all blue stats are created equally as well as not spread equally. The conversion rates should not be a 1:1 ratio because then there would be no point in getting a piece with Casting speed to convert to lets say multi attack aside from maybe a proc or the Spell skills. You yourself made a post about how certain classes are granted better stats on the pattern pieces from raid. Why would they not want to have the stats they need and the new addition of the upgraded potency/crit chance on each piece. Instead scouts are wearing Last expac's (KOS) flurry gear because they cant find a stat spread that fits their needs.

    But, I am looking forward to adding 20dps to my parse by replacing the remaining casting speed adornments with Multi-Attack I guess.
  13. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Chad, you removed two Adornments for casting speed to get resists.

    You can still as I said above spec out of agility and sit at 60% on both and still remove pieces with cast/reuse for more ability mod. The problem once again, if stats aren't on a 1:1 I just stack the highest conversion and reforge into everything else and only focus on one stat so I can reforge into other things. Scouts wearing Nemesis at this point sans the chest piece can't math, considering the potency/crit upgrades are significant and MA is close enough, you're at most wearing 2-3 pieces of nemesis now, considering gloves have flurry, and boots have MA.

    Anyways, as I said earlier; and you can check our avatar pulls. The crossbows have a 30% hit rate on growth, this is because mobs are level 76 and have higher defensive skills. The lack of weapon skills on mage gear, and the higher defense causes this. When you hit TSO and you realize mobs have a reactive that reduces your potency by 200%, you're gonna run into what me and zach did and just throw your dark orb into your ranged slot and forgo a wand entirely.

    If you need more help, lmk.
  14. Krov Active Member

    Are you guys even playing a TLE ? It is no longer even semi close to the original , you are on what version of a modified TLE now 4 ? With 3 stat adjustments and 2 complete combat revamps ?

    lol , the state of this game is just sad.

    @ Adoninilol Did you ever get a reply to the Avatar question from like 3 weeks ago ? Just curious ..... There was about 20 of us , that where thinking about Rok and we seen crickets for a reply ... so just curious.

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