I really like the idea of taunts working with MA. It seems like an easier fix than adjusting to a ratio with damage. Really the only problems I'm seeing with berserkers and crusaders (I have a 90 SK as well) for aggro is taunts are so weak. Zerks need a little love on ways to handle spike damage and our combat arts could use a small boost but other than that I think we're ok.
With the damage that dps classes are able to dish out in such bursts I think that taunts will need the adjustment to damage or potency raised to a far higher value and the ability to work off/from MA. Combine them together and I really feel that fighters would have a far better chance with aggro issues.
Yes scout detaunts should work from ma as well. For players expecting a fighter to hold aggro in todays game is like a full grown man handing a 150 pound barbell to a five year old child and expecting the child to not collapse. The issue is that many players for years have been lead to believe that a tank should be holding aggro with no responsiblity on the part of the damage dealers. I understand that dps class players want to do the greatest dps and that is totally expected. I also understand that there are many players who play dps classes that can't really dps or can't play the dps class to its potential. However the potential is still there. Fighters too should be able to have potential to hold aggro with the combo of damage and threat. I don't see fighter dps going up or dps being the main threat fighters need to hold aggro. Yes if a fighter could dps higher then it would help but again I just don't see it happening. Since dps isn't going up for fighters then fighter taunts as class abilities and through equipment should make up for the huge dps gap between fighters and t1 damage.
I think fighter DPS is about where it should be. Threat and tanking should work the same for us as DPS does for DPS classes. You can tell if someone playing a DPS class sucks because the tank or healers will parse higher than them. You should be able to tell if a tank sucks based on how well he can pull, position mobs, and hold aggro. Unfortunately without a "proper" group setup with some hate transfer he's going to fail on those counts because he won't be able to hold his own against proper DPS classes.
Good post Zeuhl. I agree 100%. Dps classes can be judged by how good they dps. Buffer classes make dps classes do even more but even buffer classes that help fighters with threat/hate can't buff the fighters enough in comparison to how well they buff the dps. Now even if buffs for dps classes are not present the dps classes can still have a level of acceptable damage. This isn't the case for fighters. All I want for my fighters is a greater chance at holding and getting lost aggro back without having the need for all the transfers and hate mods every time I wish to run an instance.
THis is a great post. My 90/320 zerker struggles with aggro as well. I like the idea of increasing the taunts to a 3 to 1 but, It seems to me that might make things a lttle to easy?? I could be wrong. Adjusting taunts to work off of MA seems like a better option that would make tanks try harder for the gear and adornments to increase their MA stats? As was previously stated earlier in the post, when your aggro meter goes from 100% down to 60% in a split second, it takes pretty much EVERY emergency, taunt, positional, snap, and popping adrenaline (if I already havent done so) to get it back. Then I am out of any type of aggro control for a longer period than I am comfortable with. I don't mind losing aggro for a short time as long as I can get it back. If my threat meter drops to 90%-95%, I am not too concerned as I know I can get it back fairly quick and still have more taunts left after I get it back. Losing a small amount of aggro just means that the group is working hard to DPS the mob down and I expect that small amount of aggro loss. On the other hand, I have had group members just NUKE AWAY on pull over and over again. I hate to say it but it is usually people that raid that do this. Being a raider myself I am not trying to put down raiders, its just that we forget sometimes that groups are almost never optimally set up like a raid is and so the hate xfer or dehates are not available to those that need it. There have been times where I have just got tired of trying to "rescue" aggro back from the same person in the group every fight that I will just "let them tank it" so to speak. I know this does not make a good reputation for me in some cases but tanking can be a frustrating hair pulling task. Especially on the bigger strat, large mob fights. I have actually suffered bouts of anxiety when pulling certain mobs
All those zerkers that are having aggro issues, do you use a shield? Mostly all the time? What is your Multi-Attack at? Is it better than 300? Zerkers aggro come from group makeup (coercer, dirge, swash etc)> your dps (dual wield) > max level spells (combat arts) > hate adorns. If you dont have any of this, you may want to rethink what you are doing or whos in your group. I raid HM with my zerker and dont have any aggro issues, i often times have too much hate and have to slow my dps. I dont use any ire adorns and i sit at 400 ma without buffs and all my combat arts are masters.
While it's nice to have raid gear, a vast majority of zerkers don't. For all zerkers, whether they have raid gear or not, there is only one way to hold agro...dps. Like Thorn said, get your MA and Crit Bonus as high as possible. There is a 2 hander that drops in one of the Skyshrine group zones called the Invader's Great Sword of Exploration. It has 49% AE Autoattack on it that can be reforged to 174% MA. Get this sword. Now, it does you no good as a tank that if you get agro, you die 0.000000005 seconds later. As a zerker, you have to be able to keep agro in D stance with a shield. In this case, you need to spec to maximize your taunts. Aggressive Defense procs hate and can be an incredibly effective way to keep agro. Make sure you have points in Executioner's Anger on your warrior tree. Also, potency affects your taunts, so keep your potency up. Also, make sure your single target taunt is in your CA rotation. Not only is it free hate, but it's an interrupt as well. Don't forget the standard practices: - Install ACT to track your progress. ACT records DPS and hate. - Time your combat arts so they don't delay your autoattacks. - Get a good bow (the bow from the Skyshrine access quest for example) and use good arrows (this is actually a great way to snap agro back from an over enthusiastic caster). - Spend some time at the training dummies. The easiest way to check any new set ups is to try it out on a training dummy. - The bottom of your defensive Prestige tree gives crit bonus for potency. This is a win / win. - Adorn your gear (this is huge). - Practice, practice, practice. Don't be discouraged! There are zerkers out there that don't have the same agro problems and it's not hard to become one of them. EQ2 is a game of percentages and even the smallest bump in your stats can have a profound impact in your effectiveness. In fact, this is a major point. You may only be a couple of percentage points away from holding agro and not know it. Hope this helps,
taunts have been worthless for at least the past 4 years now, nothing new there. problem is i don't see them getting rid of the utility class buffs that buff tanks to manage hate. it would be nice if as a tank you were the one actually controlling the fight as compared to relying on other people to do your job for you.
Out of curiosity, why does it seem like that when Berserkers (and tanks in general) complain about holding aggro, the one stat they never seem to list is their solo/unbuffed hate gain mod? I ask because I have a little over 35% Hate gain solo, use a sword and shield, have equipment that is solo/EM groupable (no faction/HM gear yet)... and I rarely have a problem even with raid-geared players except with high DPS classes that have next to zero hate reduction and/or no hate transfer. Speaking of which, it's been made clear multiple times over multiple years that aggro management is a group effort, not a tank only issue. I remember a few years ago an explicit statement that aggro for a tank was purposely tough in the early levels because it's meant to teach the other classes how to manage aggro. Considering that, it would also be nice if people find out and post what kind of hate reductions the classes you are losing aggro to have. That being said, it does seem unfair at times that some fighter classes appear to have it easy when it comes to aggro. Although I suppose it comes down to what each fighter has to build towards in order to compensate. For example, Berserkers never really have to build towards AOE damage and Brawlers can spend a lot less effort building towards avoidance.
As a zerk, I've come to expect a complete lack of ability to hold aggro against most DPS, we are the proverbial red headed step child of sony, and they do LUV to hate us. That said, I also cringe most times when I have a zerk tank for me when I am on ANY class... example: Troub 92/320 heroic SS gear, fully adorned, nothing real special running buffs : selos, spell proc one <forget the name offhand>, rejuvenating, reflection, ALIN'S SERENE SERENADE <43% reduced hate for the GROUP unless fighter>, plus all the non-concentration buffs. Zerker tank comparably geared, fully adorned running the usual everything buffs, DW/OFF <I checked, repeatedly> Halfway through Lyceum I turned off Serene serenade in favor of the haste buff for that extra 3.5ish flurry I get from it because I was doing more tanking then he was in spite of 53% reduced hate gain. Its an example, that actually happened within the last week, I expect it with zerks anymore; great class, lots of fun HUGE potential, but only after sony stops leaving us to play in the mud while they give all the other kids new ipads and PSPs. That said....theres a few out there that are really good, most of us however, have just given up.
Erszebeth@Antonia Bayle wrote: And case in point: No mention of the Berserker's unbuffed hate gain. I'm mostly curious to see where everyone sits that is having these problems and who they are having problems with. You'd think the self-buffed-only Hate Gain mod would be the most important stat when it comes to aggro control. Also, if we are talking about aggro problems and don't even mention our own hate gain mod, how are the devs suppose to seriously consider the issue? Sometimes it seems like we expect other classes to do it all for us...
