Hi everyone, I am having a lot of trouble holding agro in essentially everything from SF zones upwards. On pull I'll have the mob but shortly after I see the agro meter builds up and soon the mob goes off beating group members. It's almost impossible to get it back other than the few snaps we have but even then I cant maintain the agro. I spam the taunts constantly but they seem to do nothing at all! I read that we are meant to keep agro with dps somewhere, but that seems impossible, we would have to out dps every other class to hold agro. Setup: 90 Zerk 300AA spent in the most recommended zerker skills Everything master 1 All Tofsx2 jewellery/weapons except a peice or 2 All Rygor gear except the rime chest peice. Group: warden, conj, assassin and sometimes swash, wizard. I think I should be plenty well geared enough to do the rime zones and even kael but this agro problem is really putting me off wanting to tank as its just no fun for anyone. Im so puzzled as to what I'm doin wrong, can anyone give some strat to holding mobs at high levels? Also bonus question, do zerkers have the lowest vita in the game for tanks? I see many casters and healers with similar gear but plenty more vita. Thanks for any info you can share
Hey man i feel your pain. I got very fustrated trying to hold aggro back when TSO was the lastest xpac. Ive pretty much given up. Its more likely not how your playing your class but your DPS'ers thinking all tanks reguardless of class, quality of gear, level of CA's, and amount of AA's can hold the mob when their going all out from the start. I was in a group once with a wizzy firing off ice comets on pull. Even using rescue and insolence didnt getting me the mob back and of course he was blaming me for not being able to hold the mob. DPS'ers don't like to adjust to thier tank, most just want to go all out all the time and blame the tank when they pull the mob. A dirge is a HUGE help, but ultimatly it comes down to the fact that aggro control is the responsiblity of the tank AND THE DPS.
Honestly, a lot of what you're facing is because of the class. Ever other tank has the tools to hold agro much better than a zerker. If those you play with are friends/guildies (considering to named specific class I'm guessing this is the case), just ask them, specifically the conji and wizard, to hold off a bit, the assassin/swashy should have his tranfer on you so they should not be a problem. If that doesn't work, try changing your spec around for more hate gain (not sure how much you have vs what you can get). The last thing you could do is go out and get all teh hate gain adorns you can and find a dirge to run with you. Dirges give +30 hate gain and + to agression (increases any hate amount). Both of those things should give you what you need. If all else fail, you might have to betray... It's never the first choice when you find a class you really enjoy but I've seen some well gear and well played zerkers have a lot of throuble holding agro off DPSers who never pull agro. Guardians have some better tools and and equally played zerker and guardian could change the group dynamic enough for you to hold agro.
alot of problem is also the current game dynamics when you hit endgame. By the time you figure people are doing 50-100K dps on their own, even the low end of that, 5-10K taunts don't mean anything, and even a snap aggro is only going to work until they smack the mob again. End game is borked on number inflation, and short of pumping ca's and the like up massively on steroids, or reducing DPS and mob HP, etc to more reasonable levels inline with the rest of the game, as a class that relies so much on DPS for threat, with taunts to fluff it up, we're screwed as long as we aren't T1 DPS.
On this thread you say the class is screwed as long as we arent't T1 DPS, then... Erszebeth@Antonia Bayle wrote: On this one no one can tank at end game because prior to end game thier not taught how to properly play thier class. http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=509583 Erszebeth@Antonia Bayle wrote: Is it the class is screwed or the game doesnt teach players thier class correctly?
class isn't screwed, never has been, difficult to play effectively? yes, but its dynamics in the game that are borked.
Yes, its hard to tank effectively as a zerker these days. More than likely its just the mechanics not you. That being said though you need to adjust a little to help make up for that if you intend to keep tanking. Are you DW'ing or using a shield? If you can DW on some mobs go for it as the extra DPS will help you to maintain aggro. If you need to use a shield on some fights, do what I do. I keep a macro setup for DW and one for sword+board and swap during combat to remain effective. Do you tank in offensive stance or defensive? Most zones I run offensive unless my healer is having an off day. Also you should spec for hate gain in the strength line and get hate gain adorns if you need the extra threat. Make sure you time your taunts and that you're not interrupting you auto attacks if your spamming. The only other advice is to ask your groupmates to give you 2 or 3 seconds after the pull to build up your hate and talk to them about adjusting their cast order to ramp up their DPS instead of starting out with heavy hitters. The only other thing that will help is a coercer or a dirge. Both are bomb for hate xfer. Also, what is your assassin putting out DPS wise? If he's slacking your xfer will suffer. With you gear you should be fine all the way up through ToRZ, and you need to go there and get your BP though you might need an extra set of heals. It is rough tanking as a zerker but like before you and your group may have to adjust to the mechanics. I've done it and so have others.
I still believe that the threat that fighter taunts have are far by far to weak to compete with the dps that is generated from the dps classes. This has always been the case for my zerker. I am sure there are some zerkers out there that do not have the issues I have with holding aggro because their dps is enough to get the job done. Taunts should be good enough that the casual fighter in question has a chance of keeping aggro without having a stacked group of hate buffing classes. Fighters always needing hate transfers just to hold aggro in heroic settings or lesser ventures shouldn't be mandatory.
I definately agree with you there Aull, our taunts do not produce enough threat. I tanked 3 instances in a row this weekend with a conjy and a necro that were doubling and sometimes tripling my dps and I'm fairly certain that if it wasn't for the coercer in the group I would have had some issues.
I hear ya. I believe that all fighters should be able to hold aggro in most non raid settings without the need of hate support. It sucks to need another class just to have a chance to hold aggro and when those classes are not available waiting should not be an option just to run an instance zone. Taunting power should be increased and like auto attack should have the chance to double or triple taunt. I can fire off rescue and have the aggro for about one second and it is back on one of my group memebers. That is unsatisfactory.
I would like to start off by sayin Aull is 100% correct about taunts. They are currently all but worthless imo. I currently don't have a serk, but i have had one before. My main has been a sk since launch, and i currently have a bruiser alt. I have the same issues on my sk the OP is having on his serk. My sk is in a mix of drunder crafted, drunder x2 armor, tofsx2 weapon/jewelry. He sits at 189 cm, 240 cc, 250 ma, 320 aas, master spells, and has his ER done....and half the time i couldn't hold aggro if it had a handle on it. For those unfamiliar with sks, when i get hit...proc a taunt, when i hit...% chance to proc taunt, when i block...% chance to proc taunt, ER gives me chance for all my lifetaps to proc taunt by 300% of the tap. And with reaver aa, every hostile spell is a tap. Going back to what Aull said, taunts need fixed. In the current state of things you have to do more dps to hold aggro, and by definition dps isnt really the tanks job. This can be fixed in a number of ways. Probably the easiest would be the idea above of letting ma make taunts hit multiple times. With the hate mods and extra taunt procs i have on my sk, i should never lose aggro. For taunts to be effective they cannot be left at the 1 to 1 ratio with damage that they currently are. A taunt should always bring more hate than damage.
I have the same prob's with my SK and Zerker, both 90/300+, SK has some EM x4 gear (shield, wpn, couple peices of armor) and a HM wrist item. roughly 180 CM 200 Crit and 250 MA. Still worthless cause i cannot manage to pull 50k+ dps.. much less 40K. Zerker i dont play anymore and it's on a F2P account so it's even more useless. I stopped playing all 3 plate tanks ( have a 90/300 Guard on F2P account as well) just due to the fact that it wasn't worth the headache to try and keep aggro against dps doing 100K+. My new main is a Brigand, mix of HM and EM gear ( 275 crit, 276 cm, 435 MA) and now i'm putting most tanks ( even as well geared as me ) through aggro hell. Half the times i can just put my auto-attack on and go afk and still do 45k dps. So ya, tanks need more effective taunts.. or more effective dps output to keep up with the dps classes out there.
I've mostly went to a dirge. And even though he won't put up the dps your brig will, he still pulls aggro at times if i'm not payin attention. Something needs done. I would prefer an increase to taunts because I think if they up our dps we'll be close to the dps classes. Then they will be mad, and imo rightfully so, then they want better dps and we're back in the same boat. The way i see it, taunts need to work off your ma, be at a 3 to 1 ratio with damage, or something along those lines. I can get a crit taunt and the precentage on the hate bar doesnt even change.
Chaim Witz wrote: This is a perfect example. Yeah a dirge might not have the dps of a brig, sin, or swash but their songs combined with their dps will certainly pull aggro even with your hate buff on the tank. My problem is when I watch the hate meter. I can be at 100 on the list and in less than a split second I am at 60. There is no 100/35, 100/39, 100/45, 100/59, 100/70 "ok guys someone is climbing the hate meter fast so watch yourself". Its just 100/30 then 60/100. There is no warning time to do that. Using a taunt might pull me up to 65 but it should do far better than that. Another idea would be if fighter taunts could double or triple taunt then detaunts should double or triple detaunt for those classes who have those abilities. I do not believe in easy mode aggro but again fighters have no chance of hope in taunts to build enough hate. Also fighters should not need to rely on offensive damage as the sole means to hold aggro. When a fighter is in defensive stance they should have even more hate generation in the threat department to make up for the loss in offensive damage. Lots of good info here. Thanks for your time.
I had the same issue with a raid geared dirge this weekend. Even with his hate transfer he was pulling aggro. I think ya'll are spot on that taunts should be on a 3 to 1 ratio with damage. I never understood why its always been that way. Why would someone waste time casting a 3k taunt when they could use the same time to cast a 5k combat art? They'll get more threat out of the damage... It's definately rough for tanking right now with the stat inflation from DoV. My brigand pulls aggro with his auto attack. I don't want to do tons of DPS on my zerker, I want to hold aggro and do my job which is tanking. Don't get me wrong I enjoy smacking mobs as much as the next zerker but I get frustrated if I'm tanking an instance and I'm in the top 2 on the parse as the tank. I want enough DPS to kill mobs when I'm solo (which I've already got) and the TOOLS to tank effectively. They did ok when they gave fighters a few more taunts and snaps in our shadows tree but with the way threat currently works it doesn't help for long.
Good post Zeuhl. If fighters had better threat generation from taunts there wouldn't be such a strong need for hate support classes in the group every time. Running with a less than perfect group would be managable. Even waiting to form a group would be less down time as well. I hate waiting for that dirge or coercer or swash just to have the bare minimum chance of being able to hold aggro. Even with those classes it is still tough. Currently without any of them it is impossible to do any good.
Wow there has been some great comments here and i'm glad to see i am not the only one encountering so many issues with my tank. Thanks for the tips and hopefully they can help our taunts soon!
Over the years I have read numerous great ideas for zerkers and other fighters as well. Not just ideas about bettering zerker or other fighter threat/hate but ideas that touch the very core of each fighter. What smells is that many of the ideas are not given a chance. This is why it is mindboggling to me that fighter threat/hate issues have not been addressed. Fighter threat issues have been messed up for many years. If dps classes had dps issues like fighters have threat issues I am sure those dps issues would be given attention far quicker than what I have witnessed with fighter threat.
Well, I've been trying to tweek my sk ( i know its a serk forum but i'm in the same boat as you guys). As of right now he is 190cm, 250+cc, 300ma, 37% hate mod, master spells, 320 aa (choosing anything that increases hate and lifetaps to work with ER buff). Since it's been the dom for labs/pools/spire i've tested there the last couple days. And guess what, i still dont keep aggro. it has imporved dont get me wrong. but we are talking ascent, i am technically geared way past it. and even with group members who arent geared past it, aggro is a pain. it seems to me a simple hotfix....either A) taunts are worth 3 to 1 against damage, or B) taunts work off ma since damage does.
