First: I'm not going to tell anyone how to post, but I'm going to ask that you keep replies to THIS thread in the constructive and mature category. Go ahead and vent, rage, throw the tantrum if you need to - there are PLENTY of threads for that already. I'd like this one to be informative and help us answer some questions. Please respect that. Second: I know we're all seeing drastically reduced numbers, but IMO, comparing your DPS now with your DPS last week is just plain folly. Of course it's going to be much, much lower. We knew that. We were overpowered, now we're not. You can disagree all you want with how SOE accomplished "fixing" us, but just accept that the DPS we were doing is thing of the past. If you needed to be top dog in every group or raid to enjoy your toon, I'm sorry, but you probably should look elsewhere. I hear Baskin-Robbins is offering a great deal on summoners this month. We need to determine if the pendulum swung too far in reducing our DPS, and if it did, we need to figure out how to restore it to the level where we belong. I realize some of these questions will take more time testing and parsing to really answer, and that's fine. No hurry here. I'm looking for informative feedback derived from direct, firsthand experience. I'm also looking for information across levels and equipment - not just the end-game crowd. 1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups? 2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch? 3. Are you able to solo effectively? 4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor? Hoping that at least some of you can be level-headed enough to provide helpful information so we can identify the biggest problem areas. I know everyone is freaking out right now, that's fine, I'm not happy myself - and I encourage you to work out that frustration and anger in whatever way you see fit - but please don't go off on flame-fests and rants here; plenty of other threads for that. Thanks for your consideration and assistance.
With regard to your question number 3, I've taken the liberty to copy/paste what I wrote in another thread on this board: Having experimented some in SS with my lvl 50 ranger, I think rangers' soloing ability (at least at that level) is okay. Group encounters are challenging, but even conned solo mobs doesn't make me sweat. I find that I'm able to kill lvl 50 one arrow up heroics like sinister ghouls without too much hassle. I'm also able to deal with lvl 50 2 arrow ups heroics like Anaz Mal carcasses without getting in trouble. I have to kite these mobs of course, which always involve the risk of adds. I have tried soloing the exiled Kromtorrs (lvl 50 heroics, 3 ups) and the specters (lvl 47/48 heroics, 3 ups) without any luck. I don't consider myself a good soloer though, and as I'm in a guild with no alcemists and there were no stun poisons available for sale on Spiltpaw when I was experimenting, it may be doable (brought some of these mobs into orange before dying). My ranger has only adept 1 CAs and no pristine/fabled gear. How our dps compares to other classes in groups/raids I have not had the chance to test out yet, so I can't answer questions 1 and 4. Morningstar, 50 ranger, Splitpaw (Not listing my 11 other toons! ) Message Edited by Nimanael on 02-22-200607:31 AM Message Edited by Nimanael on 09-13-200507:33 AM Message Edited by Nimanael on 02-22-200607:37 AM
No... and trying to be mature, i dont think you ever played a ranger in any kind of RP game *sighs and shake head* i hope you find answers you seek
I really felt like being constructive. I really did. Played yesterday and just don't feel like it. I agree with everyone who said we are 'playable.' So is checkers but I'm not gonna do that for a couple hours every night, and I don't know how much longer I'll feel like levelling a DPS class who sucks at DPS. I was gonna post more parses and stuff that shows exactly why we suck now but it's too depressing. I'm glad I have guildies who will group with me and I'm glad I lead raids cuz I'd definitely be picked last for dodgeball, if you know what I mean. I feel even worse for those who don't have the gear I do, because it must be even more of a pain. If we get fixed soon I may stick with the class but it's gonna be an easy decision if they don't acknowledge how badly we're hurting now. Message Edited by Fennir on 02-22-200610:34 AM
I'm afraid to answer, being honest may reduce my chances of getting groups less than is the case now. Anyhow here goes. 1. depends who you ask, are there "classe'S" that do it better now? yes by quite a margin. If nothing else is lfg than we can keep up with bruisers and rogue's and bards now though. Assuming we spend some $$ on poison anyhow. 2. define broken? If you mean all CA casting times were increased, power costs were added where they werent before, our trap was nerfed in radius, we cant use our last mobile CA on the move anymore, primal agility has been reduced in effectiveness, or trick shot now has 1/2 the hate gain timer and doenst upgrade the hate %age as its upgraded.. then yea... we got some broken [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. 3. well.. if its a green and we want to spend a minute.. sure. I fought a blue single up arrow solo mob yesterday and it beat me within 20%hp. I could kite it in circles with auto attack and spend 20 mins on it but.. umm nah. For the record i have 9 masters, rest adept3 and atleast 1/2 fabled gear, rest legendary. 4. again depends on who you ask, prior to kos.. i had the guild conjurer constantly forcing me to pull aggro trying to outdps him =p although in doing so i had to spend a few plat a day in poisons. If i didnt have those, he wouldve beaten me, every time.. as well as many other classes. So.. if i were a raid leader, sure id take a scout, but at the moment it wouldnt be a ranger.. only plus is they can do a little damage while staying out of AE. Then again so can a mage or summoner and it'll be much better damage.
I think it would be helpful if people also posted their level and the difference between you and the mob you were fighting. Also, don't make the assumption that if you just call out the mob everyone knows what level or strength it was. I don't anyway. Having said that, I don't know if you want to hear from rangers my level, I'm a 44 ranger. I upgrade all my equipment every 10 levels. Last night I struggled soloing blues and greens. if they were no up arrow heroic it really was 50/50. Now, I wasn't using the right poisons as I haven't had time to switch from high DD to low DD. I also wasn't using the tier appropriate arrows. Will that change things significantly, I don't know. All I do know is that the mob is getting to me low green/high yellow and I take a beating trying to kill it with melee. And unlike the above poster, I struggled more Soloing than grouping. But I'm wondering if that's not because someone was picking up my slack. Tobi 44 Ranger
Ha, Tobias - you were one of the ppl I had in mind when writing that. "I know guys like Dem and Tobias will come through and help with useful info!" LOL So if you are that close to throwing in the towel, that's bad news indeed. You say we suck at DPS - and I'm not going to disagree - but what exactly does that mean? We suck compared to the classes we should be in line with - sorcs and assassins? Or we suck compared to how we used to do?
state of rangers as I see it. level 60 ranger with 3 arrow masters and some fable using stun/debuff and dmg poisons my dps for soloing is around 128-318 58^^^ almost owned me up I can kill a level 67 normal mob but it took 8 min and almost died at. group dps ranged badly from as low as 98-390 with a high dps of 518 on level 64 ^^^'s Raid dps lower then group because all our arrow attack cast times have been rased to 3 seconds includeing stream of arrows to counter the new proc changes IE. (CA cast time / 3) X proc chance procs are next to non existent now in a tipical fight my poison proced 5 times and arrow frenzy proc 6 I had more CA's then procs our trap spells set off range has been reduced so that the mob has to walk right over the middle of it to set it off. sence we only get like what 4 arrow attacks and all our AA's But the AGI line deal with melee weapons Looks like they are trying to make us into brigends. I grouped with a guild wizzard last night he did around 500-800 dps every fight consestaly I on the other hand did 98dps low avarage of 128-230 with a few into the 300's and 2 times i hit 500 dps. on level 64 ^^^ Message Edited by ShadarLocoth on 02-22-200604:59 PM
we suck compared to almost everything now friend. download combatstats, get in a group.. and parse for yourself. All the non rangers and sony fanboi's cant really say much about the numbers can they? we suck bad compared to how we used to be.. obviously and we suck a little worse than the rest of the t1 and t2 damage classes now. This is while spending money on poison and more arrows now since we do less damage. Again, if we didnt buy poisons.. we'd be t4 or t5 if theres such a thing =p
I always like reading your stuff Jay. 1. Yes, butno where near as effectively as others can. We clearly arent T1 DPS right now. 2. Broken or were nerf'd a little hard? I think cheap shot needs to be a 3-4 second stun, if your lagging at all you cant land a back attack. I miss being able to fire that one debuff while backing up, it was a life saver while soloing... a number of times it was the diff between living and dieing. 3. I'd say yes for blues and below, though no where near as effectively as other classes (as I watched a conjuror 2 levels below me last night take on 6 mobs i was battling to kill one at a time). Whites and yellow, or anything with an up arrow, you better have all your skill timers refreshed. Our defensive stance has a use now it seems as I last alot longer with it up, though the fights are alot slower too. Basically the issue with soloing is the group/raid ranger and the solo ranger are completely diff. In a group/raid you can use your positionals and ranged. Solo your a ****'d assassin wanna be (as in no where near as good as assassins, not that assassins are gimpd) opening up with one, maybe 2 ranged and then cycling through 4 or 5 rather ineffective melee skills hoping to last long enough for a poison proc or 2 to land. Its about luck of the proc. 4. I havent raided yet, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no. I just think the reduction in the damage was too large. Pre Lu20 raiding guilds were recruiting rangers like mad, post LU20 I am willing to bet a number of those positions will be opened up for casters and it'll go back to being wizards/warlocks/conjurors comprising 75% of your raid DPS and scouts the other 25% mainly for their utility. I have no solid facts for this apart from the obvious 50% reduction in our damage which is the only thing we bring to a raid. I'm pretty sure were not intended to remain like this. We are back to pre LU13 levels. I just dont "feel" like a ranged DPS anymore. Previously i changed my surname to "Heavy'Artillery" because thats exactly how i felt.. i felt i was bringing the pain and raining down destruction. I just dont feel that now... and the numbers back it up. Its not about numbers or DPS tiers its about fun and the ranger isnt alot of fun when your soloing concists of launching one maybe 2 ranged attacks then cycling through 5 flimsy melee attacks. Its not a dig at assassins but I dont want to melee. The solution I feel is to increase our CA damage to make up 25% of that 50% reduction we have seen and to allow us to use bow attacks at point blank. That really only affects the solo ranger because in a group or raid your back and behind the mob anyhow. I'd leave SoA at non point blank though, it was far too powerful when it was able to be used point blank, although I think it was the procs that made it too powerful. Bottom line is we need a damage tweak and something to be done about soloing, its not fun at the moment and I want to have fun.
Yep, definitely want to hear across all levels. And I agree that providing the context of the data you're sharing is very helpful. Your level, relative grade of your equipment, and the level / con of the mob you're fighting are all very useful. Thanks for responding.
Last night I was routinely destroyed by our conj and mostly competing with our monk. I would often attack a mob with a high damage attack and lose agro a split second later to our fury. I won't get to test raids until the weekend so I really don't have any way to parse extended DPS but I'll put it this way: pre-KoS I was thinking about the WIS AA line after AGI, but now I laugh to even think about it. We now have a HO flipper and a stealth instead of 2 deagros and we sure as [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] don't need anymore.
Puts mature hat on < aaack makes my head itch > To all the people who explained to the devs what a ranger is... Who provided parses... Who spelled it out prior to the update... They did not get it at all. <twitching feverishly fighting urge to use curse words> I was killed by down arrow mobs 4 levels below me last night... about 3 times. Sure I killed quite a few but I felt like I was playing my guardian soloing without plate. My tripple arrow CA seemed like my guardian pulling with a bow to mele it to death. I tried ascending and descending poisons looking for a better setup... switch gear leaning more twords str and getting rid of INT gear I had aquired. Not much help. although my early finding show descending poison 4tehwin. We are not DPS anymore. Never where or are utility now. Dunno what to classify us as.
Jay42 first and foremost please don't think any of what I will say is a flame to you it most certainly is not. You have your opinion and you're perfectly welcome to have it. (that goes for anyone) I sincerely fear for the Rangers ability to performs his function. I have posted in another thread on this board and on the LU20 feedback form on the dev table board. Here's my arguments in a nutshel. Rangers serve only 1 purpose on a raid and that's burning down the hp of the mob. It's the ONLY thing we bring to the table. No heals, no buffs, no debufs no rezes Just pure and simple DPS. . . That's it. We don't offer that effectively anymore. That's the nutt shell complaint. Now some say "Rangers were overpowered and getting egotistical and becomming jerks and they needed to be put in their place!" Well some call it overpowered but you know what I saw it as the ONLY THING we could do we did well. pre LU 20 we brought something to the table. We were wanted in raids and groups. Some did get egotistical and acted like idiots (but that happens everywhere a few gaurds names come to mind) We did the job that we were brought in to do well. I was NOT ALWAYS top dps'er in our parses during raids. Despite what all those trying to down rangers were saying. Sure i was mostly the top and if i wasn't 1 i was in the top 3 or 4 but that's where i SHOULD BE. it's the only thing i do. Can I solo now? Sure. I can solo a lvl 57 mob. I think grinding to 70 on those will take me a bit. But hey it's about grouping anyway right. . . sure ok why solo. . .that's no fun anyway just pop in a group. . .wait. . . someone. . .anyone wana group with me!?!?! *cricket chirp* anyone?!?! We're not picked in groups because the ONLY thing we bring to the table we now can't do effectively. A group thinks we got our tank we got our healer we got our buffs and debuffs let's get us someone to burn those hps off. . . used to be rangers were viable to fill that role. . not anymore. Anyway If you read my other posts on this topic some are rantish and some are a bit whinny but this has really hurt our class. A class i have always loved (was a ranger in eq 1 and in EQ OA and here). It's a bit sad to me. I'll stop now as I could drivel on about the sad days for a while.
Trying hard to be constructive....here goes. Can we still kill things? Yes....that's about where it ends. I can't solo anymore at any level of efficiency...oh if I kite it around for a week while praying for something to proc to get me back into the fight I can kill even con solo mobs, but yellows and ^ are basically a thing of the past. As for functionality, could we function as the DPS role in a group? Yes. Will any group not started by you ever choose you over one of these classes: Conj, Necro, Wizard, Zerker, Monk, Bruiser, Bard, Assassin, Brigand, Swashy....cough, guardian? I don't know. I know, if I have that 1 slot left to fill and I'm tossed up on which DPS ish class to grab, I'll take the one with more utility unless there is a big difference in the damage dealt. Ranger no longer deals much more (or deals less) than the above listed classes, and we can do nothing else of value to a grp. (Don't give me pathfinding, evac, snipe and heat debuff...those are not deal breakers). So can we function? Yes. Can we grp? Yes, in a grp that has five slots and you're the only non-moron on server who is LFG. Can we raid? I don't know yet, if I was putting together a raid and had only 24 slots to fill and say, 30 ppl who could go on the raid....the ranger would be low on my list of needed classes...guess if there were a lot of ranging fights there'd still be reason to bring us, or maybe bring 1 wizard to drop the heat debuff for the real DPS classes.... I tried...but it's so hard to stay constructive right now.
totally appreciate your POV. Fight some of the even con and ^ in KOS when your about 55 and see if that still holds true. They are alot harder than the POF mobs. Not a dig, just an observation that should be included with your slurr to Rangers who've been here since the start.
Last night I finally started owning the #1 DPS spot when most of our static group had gone to bed and it was just me and the templar. Oh and I can solo fine, but that's because I rock and would never admit it if I died to a blue down arrow mob. Like I said: checkers is playable. so are we.
Thanks everyone for the responses, keep them coming. FWIW, I appreciate keeping the rants and flames out of here so far. These are the kind of posts I'm looking for. I'm not asking that you put the best face on everything; I want honest assessments. Saying "I don't feel effective in a group, as I'm routinely outdamaged by rogues and brawlers" is not a rant or whining, that's just an honest observation. Saying " I HATE SOE U [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]S SUCK THIS IS [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] UR STUPID IM QUITTING THIS [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] GAME HOORAY FOR VANGUARD" is...well, not so useful. And for the record, I'm not at all happy with this. I'm not raging or tearing my hair out, I'm more resigned and weary and depressed than anything. But I feel that we have a responsibility here, and I'm trying my best to live up to that.
" level 60 ranger with 3 arrow masters and some fable using stun/debuff and dmg poisons my dps for soloing is around 128-318 58^^^ almost owned me up I can kill a level 67 normal mob but it took 8 min and almost died at." My lvl 60 asn would get eaten alive by a lvl 58^^^ if i soloed it and im not gimped and I do know how to play my class. Point of view from someone who has both an assassin (main 60) and a ranger (alt 45). Pre Lu20 my ranger could solo ^^^ heroic mobs 4-5 lvls above me with relative ease (and I am in no way uber or well equiped). To be honist though when using the term soloability, it realy should not mean can you still solo ^^^ blue or higher mobs. Rangers (and all other classes) are not suppost to solo those types of mobs. I know there are some classes that still can (and I honistly believe that eventually they will be prevented from doing so). My assassin who has close to 50% fabled gear and many adept 3 and some master spells can not now and could never solo blue or higher ^^^ mobs (and assassins are suppost to be the evil counterpart of rangers). And to be honist thats the way it should be. Did rangers get a BIG nerf in this expansion, Yes. Was the nerf to big, probably. But what youhave to realize is what the OP said. Dont base what you can do now on what you could do a week ago because a week ago the ranger class was very overpowered. After LU20 my 45 ranger can solo even white con mobs with little problem at all. I know it a far cary from what we could do previously but pre LU20 we were soloing things we realy should not have been able to (Im sure SOE did not mean for Roost to be solo farmed).
