Can the new PvE TLE be without p2w?

Discussion in 'General TLE Discussion' started by Fistpower, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. OldRodKS Member


    Forgive my ignorance, but why do so many people not want Beastlords and Channelers on the server? I've seen several people in various threads mention this.

    I understand the familiars, spell research and potions, but I'm confused as to the Beastlord/Channeler part. I've never played either class beyond level 20 or so, so is there something at higher levels that makes them bad for a TLE server or something?

    As for xp gain, the rate they had between November and mid-January felt about right to me. It wasn't super fast, like the live servers, but it wasn't slow enough that I felt the need to by xp potions to make progress. I'd be OK with removing the potions and setting the xp gain around that amount
    Carynn likes this.
  2. Dimek Member

    Sadly I am willing to bet the xp will be low just for the fact that people will spend more money and buy xp pots. The same with familiars and stuff, taking that away from a TLE would cut into the cash cow that a TLE is.
  3. Spectre Member

    Beastlords / Channelers were not available on Nagafen. They were not in game yet.
  4. Mountbatten Well-Known Member

    Some people don't want them because they weren't in the original game and so don't really belong from a lore standpoint. Channelers also essentially require you to tune content around them due to the fact that they get multiple group cures, fast casting heals, and damage intercept long before any other healing classes do. I also think they can cast some stuff on the move, which for some things is a huge advantage. These advantages do diminish over time, but plenty of us argued they should never have been allowed on TLE to begin with. Grumble grumble get off my lawn, etc.
    OldRodKS likes this.
  5. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Beastlords were awful pretty much all of TLE, the closet class if you will. Even buffed they weren't really performing as well as predators or sorcerer's.

    Channelers however...

    I don't even know where to begin talking about how aggravating it was this class was on Fallen Gate.

    For starters the class has an intercept which basically takes 30% of all incoming damage and the pet absorbs it for the tank. Essentially this means channelers are reducing all incoming damage by 30%.

    On top of that they get a pet buff that makes 75%(65?) of the 30% intercepted turn into a heal for the tank, this now makes channelers not only reduce damage by the largest margin, they also have the best reactive in game that is permanently up.

    Channelers also got one of the highest stat debuffs in game, and a weapon damage bonus reducer.

    This means that they had to tune outgoing damage on mobs for channelers or make the content trivial if you did run one. (Option 2 would've been better because then I could run defensive healers for hard hitting fights, and offensive healers for the easier content!)

    For example: tank has 12k hp, named hits for 14k.

    The problem with this is it pigeon holes you into running a class, coupled with the fact that the class is severely under designed compared to the other 24 classes; it means you're gonna run into an issue of people who aren't subpar wanting to play it.

    If they wanted to include channelers on TLE they would of had to make mobs swing faster and hit for less to allow reactives/hots/wards to be able to keep up with the high amounts of incoming damage, but this was decided to be against the direction of the design despite being shown that the current design is detrimental on several occasions.

    It's also riddled with unclear mechanics most players don't really understand, like the pet having to be in range, or the pet intercepting a certain amount based on the pets hp, and dissonance dissipating faster the lower it is. We probably went through over 40-50 channelers since t5 because they just couldn't figure out how to play the class despite being told all of their shortcomings.

    In t5-t8 our channeler was able to consistently outperform the other two healers in the main tank group by a large margin. Even factoring in things like unyielding benediction on the avoidance report.

    In later game when tanks have more access to temps/stoneskins, the channeler becomes a bit overkill, as you can just prevent yourself from ever being hit to begin with and other classes start to get additional things that make them worth bringing over a channeler, RoA, Bolster, debuffs etc.

    The biggest weak spot for channeler's is their offensive capabilities, they parse low compared to other healers and offer zero group buffs.

    This is also topped off with mitigation being scaled horribly on the server, it's impossible to reach the hard cap on mitigation for all types, both magical and physical.

    Block chance is also designed on a curve that makes it near impossible to reach cap uncontested block, mobs also have so much strikethrough it's not like it matters anyway, but this makes things like sandstorm, and tortoise shell, and other block chance modifiers moot.

    I can honestly write for hours about the balance on the server and why it was really bad and how to fix it, but i'm doubtful it would be read/fixed~
    Kalika, Ratface, Zenji and 1 other person like this.
  6. michael baker Member

    Can someone give as good a break down on dps classes on fallen Gate and hopefully this will be relevant on the new pve server when it arrives
  7. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Assassin: Decent, requires a stacked group of zerk/inq/mystic/coe/dirge to be good, and requires jcap from troub group. The way icelash/curse procs though, it's always better to put it on a sorcerer, so it kinda leaves predators/scouts in general in a bad spot. Our assassin was keeping up and winning short burst fights, with every buff in game, bolster, roa, jcap, confront fear, thieves guild, ancestry, you really name it .But the longer fights/hard mode stuff he was getting ran into the dirt because of jousts/encounter adds. Overall including ice lash/ro's blade he never won anything, when manaburn was around it wasn't even close.
    Ranger: Same, but has a debuff that increases incoming damage so they're better.
    Beastlord: Same, but parses less.
    Swash: Bad. Low damage, pitiful debuffs because they give mobs around 1100 dps mod and won't respond when I ask why it's impossible to actually reduce a mobs dps/haste to a state that it actually makes a difference. Lung puncture also didn't produce any noticeable changes to avoidance reports.
    Brigand: Perfect.

    Warlock: Fantastic all the way up, good damage, best power feed in game right now.
    Wizard: Best dps class in game despite the various nerfs done to the class.
    Conj/Necro: Decent until EoF, once eof rolls around you're better off just running another sorc for damage procs or a healer/sk. Problem is the fact that because of how much ice lash/curse is doing they just never scale as well with confront fear/jcap and TC is better utilized on a wizard, and UT on a warlock.

    Something that they should honestly just remove is confront fear, it's kinda silly that I can reach 200% reuse in raids in SF and then get confront fear and have 150% more potency. Kind of a meme if you ask me, it also makes jcap pretty much required to parse.

    The way dps mod scales into auto attack also needs to be fixed, mobs have dps mod "avoidance" so you have to have the aforementioned setup on a scout to even be able to auto attack worth a damn.

    If they don't add channelers your raid will probably look something like this...
    Guard
    Dirge
    Defiler/Mystic, If mystic is bolstering mt already, defiler. If not, mystic.
    Templar
    Brigand
    Coe

    Zerk/Paladin
    Dirge
    Mystic
    Inquis
    Coe
    Ranger (with warden alt for MT group 3 healer situations)

    Wizard
    Warlock
    Illy/CoE Until EoF then 100% Illy.
    Troub
    Inquis/Fury
    SK/pity summoner/another healer/sorc/reject 2nd predator.

    Wizard
    Warlock
    Illy/CoE Until EoF then 100% Illy.
    Troub
    Inquis/Fury
    SK/pity summoner/another healer/sorc/reject 2nd predator.

    You can also set up one of your mage groups to turn into a tank group with the shaman alt.

    Scout groups are cool on paper, but the truth is Jcap is such a powerful buff that not running two troubs is basically shooting yourself in the foot, with the immunity removed you can put it on a tank forever for temps. Mage's also just parse more, between ice lash, and the fact that it's impossible to buff two predators/brig the way you can a warlock/wiz in the same group.


    Tortoise shell is beyond broken overpowered in KoS/EoF/Rok, and in TSO you need inquis to keep up with cures.
    Ratface and Zenji like this.
  8. michael baker Member

    Thank you for this, raiddd with healer or bard for to many years so when I start again I may as well start with a completely different style...
  9. jlrak New Member


    man my bud and me run a duo ) non scout ) and find pvp, we did on the old naggy and sure we will on the new naggy. you gotta take good with bad. yeah you will get beat by groups of turds that can't 1v1 but when you do get that 1v1 2v2 its magic
  10. tbmroark New Member

    Wishlist for next TLE:

    1) No familiars
    2) No stat mounts
    3) No krono
    4) No XP potions
    5) No discount broker box
    6) No Channeler/Beastlord
    splatterpunk28 likes this.
  11. Fistpower Well-Known Member

    YES!

    And increased XP bonus for old content everytime a new expansion is released. This was supposed to be on FG but they messed that up after they disabled the christmas server bonus XP and still have not responded to it.
  12. kitleez Member

    Mages are definitely ahead of scouts again, just like on SH. Top 3 have always been warlock / necro / wizard and it just depends on buffs and how much p2w sadly. Raid set ups are similar to what SH was except now there are channelers which are essential the way things are tuned. Scout life is hard.
  13. splatterpunk28 Well-Known Member

    It varied widely with each xpac.

    Melee dps was great until KoS, then started going downhill. Sorcerers were mediocre dps until KoS/EoF, they've been on top ever since. No one really knows what they'll do with pet damage, so a necro, may or may not be viable raidwise, conjy is broken and likely always will be. Without tainted heals, necro is not a solo god, so unless pets are OP, they aren't going to be very special at launch.

    If you want to be safe and go for the long haul, a ranger is your best bet for melee or wizard for mage. If you want a raid spot to dps, you're better off with a wizard, you can always betray if your guild isn't taking more. If you just want a raid spot and don't care as long as you aren't healing or tanking, enchanters and bards always have the most seats available and no one is going to cry if you aren't amazing, although they will notice if you are.

    At the end of the day, the parse primarily comes down to class, gear and buffs, skill won't really impact it much unless you're quite bad. Class matters, but you never really know what they'll do. Assuming they aren't doing anything different than FG, which is totally plausible, then I'd seriously consider ranger or wizard for pure dps.
  14. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Melee dps was fine all the way up, in RoK a group of people with over 600 dps mod could just auto attack their way to victory because of how broken dps mod was on this server.

    Sorcerer's were also kings all the way up, in t5 our wizard was dominating, in t6 our warlock was dominating because of all of the encounters in poet's palace plus the power feed. Every zone in KoS is encounter so once again, sorc's were dominating.

    In EoF I was the only person to reach a 20k zonewide in MMIS on a wizard, and a 18k one in all of emerald halls, I was also doing 10k+ higher than anyone on server on a lot of nameds.

    All that matters is you get confront fear, then you have someone cast jcap on you and you will win the parse. skill really depends on the class, but it has a factor for sure.
  15. splatterpunk28 Well-Known Member

    Without Jcap (65), CF/TC (AA available at KoS), sorcerer's weren't doing anything amazing on the parse in any raids I joined. Since that's not possible until KoS, it was melee dps that won out, almost always. In my guild, sorcerers weren't even in the top 3 classes on the parse until KoS (half a year in). I wasn't in a top raiding guild (no one was running around in BIL gear in nearly every slot getting every buff), but that was my experience even when I attended PUG raids on an alt.

    No familiar, /claimed mounts or Krono would be amazing though. If I just have to choose one, it would be no familiars.
  16. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Yeah, idk, in momentum it was sorc city. Even in neustart the sorcs were at the top basically always.
  17. Caul Shivers Active Member


    No leapers.

    Leapers at lvl 10 on FG really messed up overland content. And by messed up I mean made it trivial.
    Zenji likes this.
  18. tbroark New Member

    Good addition, I agree increased XP for old content is helpful/necessary, particularly for later expansions.

    100%. Leapers really negatively impact the game.
  19. Kalika Well-Known Member

    I raided from then end of echo of faywer till the end of shadow odyssey and our channeler outparsed the shaman or clerirc by factors sometimes close to two (and more if you count spikes), in murdok mat bastion I took my noobish ungeared channeler and she parsed like crazy , and i m not very used to play her even if i understand the class, typically i only have 2 pet heal loaded and i m never sure which one shouldi select, fast ? efficient ? for spikes ? etc ... On top if you ask pet to stay you can joust or be quite far from tank which is also another huge advantage. The PBAO rez is also another huge thing + a perma Death prvent on tank and self immunity ability (last 8 second recast around 2mn) ... and on top a spamable cure(that use dissonance but not so much) ... Last the two ranged heal are healing the raid ... within a radius or a cone ...
  20. Kalika Well-Known Member


    Outdoor content is not challenging, back in 2007 it was sometimes, in Kylong Plains when i dinged 65 (i started too play some weeks after RoK release so i was castching up) i saw very often guardians being killed or wizzlocks. In those days a wizard had to root anything that was 1^ or higher.

    But with today solo content is very easy and the leaper make it funnier. Leaping is fun especially when you land between 3 ^^^ mobs ;-)

    But i would have left the Sokokar post closed till you visited the post ;-) and the same for other means of travel.

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