Sidori@Crushbone wrote: When the cross crafting recipes were added, it was actually cheaper for anyone not an alchemist (or an alchemist not using alchemy skills/recipe) to make rare ink. It was given to everyone then and touted as a good idea, why not again? Besides, someone could convert their own rare instead of needing to pay the scholar for double work (and make sure that scholar had the recipe and was willing to do the double combine).
Rijacki wrote: meh. ... I do like the idea of Inks being added to the game. But, I would prefer them to be a Scholar recipe (if not a Alchemist only). I sorta have faith in Domino, that should she add in these recipes, they would be priced rather cheaply and would be an easy to get recipe via a quest if need be like the Dust Recipes, if not just added to the X0 advance book. Being that combines in today's crafting isn't exactly rocket science, it's not that big of a deal to do 2 combines. As long as it doesn't cost 10g in fuel to make it. Could add in the bonus of getting an additional dust at pristine level but being able to have the option of stopping the combine at crude, would work. (1) spell gem/loam/metal +1 6cp water + 1 tier fuel = Ink / Ink / Ink / Ink + dust. /shrug.
I want to weigh in here. Sorry I only read page 1 and the last page... I think leaving dusts in game in any form is bad. It is the only line of products that is *dependent* on other products. This is bunk. What I'd like to see: Remove dusts from game, make rare potions and poisons use rare loam Implement ink recipe that uses *any* rare to make it, give the recipe only to Scholars Change all AD3 recipes to require ink The sentiment that crafting classes will take a "hit" if you muck with rare prices is rather absurd in my opinion. The only people that will take a hit are the ones that buy and then horde rares. Making AD3s use *any* rare will effectively make them use whatever is the *cheapest* rare at the time. I really don't see that as a bad thing. I'm selling T8 tranquil cloth gear for 1p per piece, yet the woven hidebound stuff is going for 4p per piece. This is completely and solely determined by the price of the rare, not by any demand for the armor. Demand for the armor affects markup, but the price of the rare determines the base price.
sliderhouserules wrote: Only one problem with the your #1. Scouts would go nuts because of the prices of poisons. The only way that would sorta work is if Domino UPPED the output of potions per combine. ie: 40 instead of 10. .. maybe even 60 instead of 10.
If it is done it should be an extra cost optional route to use the ink. Optional so that people will not complain about being forced into doing extra work. Extra cost so that people will still consider using rares that are not perfect for their adept IIIs for other purposes. It should only be used for adept IIIs, and the recipes should be mastercrafted ones. The recipes should be scholar ones, so that everyone who can use the ink can make it. The ink recipe for a tier should be available in that tier, so making it only purchasable from the TS faction merchants would not work, but allowing to be purchased that way as an alternative route would be OK. Perhaps if they were tradable it would be OK. The T1 ink recipe probably should be added to the advanced artisan 9 book, and the T2 one could go in one of the advanced scholar books. They could use the alchemy skill, but at higher tiers geomancy would probably be needed. Adding them to an advanced book at each tier would work but not be interesting. A NPC being willing to sell the recipes, but only after you have done a quest for him would be a good option - no one advanced book per tier would be favoured, only 1 scholar recipe would be needed, not 1 for each type of scholar, fun quests could be added, but only 1 per city would be needed.
sliderhouserules wrote: You do realize that rare poison and potions are the only mastercrafted consumables left in the game, right? Legendary Arrows and Throwing weapons were removed from the game when crafting last was given a major overhaul (the same time that mushroom nodes were removed, and all the legendary crafted became master crafted). Rare potions and poisons were also slated to be removed but due to a great outcry from the scouting community dusts were implimented and the process for making dust was moved from ink refinment (first step in the 5 step process of making a spell) to the spell recipe. I believe its the only by-product left in crafting when we use to have ingots and wood chips being produced as well. Now if dust was removed we'd need a new product to make them from. If you changed it to rare loam, then the demand for loam would probably slightly increase. Most likely you'd see the demand for common potions going up considerably. Why? The price of loam would drop to about as much as the 2 jewelery metals. Currently that would be about 3p in t8. That means to make x fuel you'd pay 3p for the rare ingredient that you pay generally less than 20g for now! Even if you made 5 times as much as you do now that would still be a 300% increase in base costs! By-products are undervalued. They are worthless to jewelers and sages. They sell them to alchemists cheaply to make a little extra proffit on the spell they make. This hidden proffit is usually passed on to the people that commission spells. Without it people would probably charge a little more to make a spell. Now if you moved it to imbue material you haven't really made things better. In fact I think that would be even worse! People complain about a shortage of the material on market now. I find that strage considering that at most each character can only equip 8 peices of imbued items (2 armor, 1 weapon, 1 shield, 2 rings, 2 hex dolls). Most people don't bother getting all imbued equipment either. Now you'd be placing a consumable item in there, you'd see the prices of imbue material skyrocket! Soon they would be all up in the 10g range for t8. Lower tiers would be significantly impacted as well. I don't see this as a good change from the current system. Why are t8 roots and leather items going for such drastically different prices? It isn't because it is any harder to harvest 1 rare vs another rare. Oh sure, bushes and roots both produce mantrap roots. However, its not like you can't find enough dens if you look in the correct locations. It isn't difficult to find hard metal nodes either. What determins the supply of rares is how much effort people put into collecting them. If you know of an area where stone is easy to collect, chances are you'll find people harvesting there often. You'll see them walk right past bushes to collect metal. Why are they doing it? Because there is more demand for the products created by rares from stones! Demand for products drives the market. Peroid. If there wasn't a higher demand for 1 rare vs another you wouldn't have higher prices. Why isn't there a higher demand for mantrap roots? Probably because the solo quest cloth rewards are just as good as the cloth crafted armor (better in many cases) and they are FREE. Your actually being paid to take these rewards. The leather armors are split between 4 classes which can't all be happy with the rewards. The crafted armor in their cases is a good choice because they have opposed views on what makes good armor (half want melee, half want casting). Chain classes all want the same stats and general abilities so they are happy with quested armor. Plate tanks are unhappy with crafted armor due to poor mittigation when compaired to legendary armor from EoF. Plate healers...would probably consider using crafted armor. In the case of incarnate it suffers from being the unpopular rare vs the silicate loam on the same node. Glut equals a sever discount in prices to move product quickly. You'll probably see incarnate actually increase in price one the level cap is raised again instead of going down like everything else will.
sliderhouserules wrote: I agree with you here all except for #1. The potions and poisons market would be so jacked up that no one would buy them at all.. leaving alchemists SOL. And I really cant see doing this to that tradeskill class as its one of the huge things alchemists bring to the table.
One thing I didn't mention, that negates a lot of what you're saying (in your last paragraph) Meirril is that I sell a *lot* of cloth armor, and hardly any leather armor (in T8). I make hidebound tomes on my jeweler and they sit and sit on the broker. I've sold a few but they sit a long time. A few of you seem really against the idea of using loams to make potions and poisons. Somebody else earlier in the thread mentioned that the devs have expressed that rare potions and poisons weren't supposed to be standard (if rare potions/poisons are meant to be rare, what's wrong with making them a bit more rare?). Once MC potions and poisons are the only standard thing made from loams, and AD3s are made from any rare, then the playing field will be pretty even from the front end. And you can tweak things on the back end to make sure that the overall impact on individual product lines is minimized or affected in a desirable way -- tweak the number produced by each combine; increase the efficacy of common potions/poisons... There are lots of things you could do to make it work. The imbalance between what's required to gear up in AD3s between the different archetypes is *so* wide right now, that a (mitigated) hit to something like potions/poisons seems acceptable to even the AD3 playing field. At the very least, this is something to keep in mind for T9.
Meirril wrote: Actually that is no longer true. The three recipes provisioners get from doing the level 25 crafting quest are mastercrafted consumables (Hair of the Dog, Jester's Cap, Beghn's Death by Chocolate Cake).
sliderhouserules wrote: No. It would mean a complete and utter death to any mastercrafted potions and poisons or it would result in a huge uproar (even louder than now) about how alchemists overcharge for their potions and poisons (no matter if they charged just recoup costs rates). Using loams, to balance their rarity, you'd have to either make the number per combine a lot higher, not just double because currently you get an adept III -and- up to 20 potion or poison (10 of each), and/or you'd have to increase the effects on the potions and poisons to the point they would be overpowering. At that point, they may as well be removed from game because there would be no way to balance them. We almost did lose rare potions and poisons when subcombines were going away. The concern about what to make them from that wouldn't be too rare (requiring them to be too good) or too common (making them too common) was the primary reason they were nearly axed. (I might still have my IM log from the discussion with Beghn when I was trying my best to get them saved while the thread on the boards raged on... he had been instructed to contact me *laugh*). The reason dusts were created was to keep potions and poisons linked to the making of adept IIIs (my suggestion was the imbuing materials, but they were deemed too common) as it was in the past. The decision on dusts wasn't even Beghn's, it was the designers who made that the next morning at the development meeting they have. Having dusts come only from ink and adept III recipes take either ink or the specific rare raw drastically decreases the number of dusts possible. It would also require changing -every- adept III recipe in game. Having dusts come from ink -and- making the adept III (which would take either ink or rare) might be reasonable in some ways since the ink recipe itself would require fuels, etc, and the only benefit it would have is being usable in any adept III recipe, but that would increase the production of dusts making them less rare. Having dusts from ink would require the ink fuel cost to be a lot higher than it is now which would raise the crafting cost of adept IIIs using ink which would still make the cost of making an adept III for a class which has a more expansive (on the broker) rare still a lot more expensive than the adept IIIs from the classes with less expensive rares. Having adept III take only ink, and the ink create the dusts, would make all scholars have a subcombine recipe for a rare recipe, something no other class has (imbuing is not from a subcombine since the pristine item is usable by an adventurer as a non-imbued item and you can even imbue something after it has been used... if you're the class that makes it). Having adept IIIs take either ink or rare and the dusts come from the making of adept IIIs (status quo) would keep the dust rarity as it is now (it might increase slightly) and only require changing T7 and T8 adept III recipes to allow ink or rare like the other recipes are now (one of the backward compatible elements to allow old subs work in the current recipes) in addition to adding ink recipes and 2 new icons for the T7 and T8 ink (the others still have icons). The fuel cost of the ink could be kept minimal since the only value added by that recipe would be a universal rare for adept IIIs. These, and probably more, are all the things the devs do keep in mind when they're discussing an addition or change like this.
sliderhouserules wrote: I dont believe they are the standard. I constantly use potions but they are not the MC potions. I know others who use potions to and those are also not the rare potions. I dont see how you think the rare ones are now standard.. because they arent. I was in total agreement of the ink idea, but if that means making potions and poisons using loam instead then I am out. I would have to fully disagree there. What is wrong with keeping the dust system in place? As if it would be that hard to, when making an adept 3 from the ink, continue to produce this by product the same way it has been produced. I agree certain things need to be rare.. but consumables no.. I will never ever agree on that.. considering how they are used and how temporary they are.
Unfortunately with quested armor and jewelery being so out of proportions with crafted armor.....even after the last ""upgrade"" of MC items. I have taken all my Jewelery, Tailor and Alchemist items of the market and sold them to a NPC vendor. It is nearly impossible to move anything lvl 10-40 and T8 besides adept3 spells and I do believe others have the same problem . I am making more coin in the same time by going out farming for rares and actually selling the rares then selling a MC item . I had MC items on the market for LOWER then the coin I get for rares and ended up basically selling them to the NPC vendor. Something is broken and needs to be fixed by either lowering the stats of items quested ( I can already hear the uproar) or making crafted gear more desirable . C'mon, super, super simple series of quests in jungle of kunzar and Jarsat waste giving "legendary" items that puts every master crafted item to shame? What incentive is there to craft anything? What incentive is there for anyone to buy anything? The items also look great so there is not even the incentive to have MC or any crafted gear in the appearance slot. Same is true for the quest rewards AND drops in TD. If they would at least have made all armor and stuff in RoK look blah maybe plain white or gray (great start with the all white cloaks) but no it also had to be great looking taking away the ability to craft for the appearance slots and so taking away this "edge" also. Before fixing non issues such as high prices for loams (something that will even out quickly and is NOT different than it used to be in KoS or EoF) it would be better to concentrate on to get the incentives back into crafting J.C.
After reading this long post, and the other ones about the loam issue, and hearing it from my fellow guild mates (I am not going to comment on potions/ect), I don't think bringing back the old version of tradeskilling, or inks, or combining rares is really the answer. There are a few facts: 12 classes use loam for adept 3s, loams only drop off of ore, after awhile the loams drop in prices cause no one uses them (see lower teirs), Hard metals are used for both weapons, and armor (chain/plate). People are worried about the quantity of hard metal if you change it to a spell use. On Crushbone server, currently the t8 hard metal is going for 13g, the t8 loam is 4p or so. The other rares are going for under 2p. So here is my suggestions. 1. Have scouts use loam for their Adept 3s, Fighters use Hard metals for their Adept 3s 2. Change Plate armor and crush weapons to use Loams for their rare instead of the hard metal. 3. Change Chain and Peirce/slash to use the hard metals. 4. Make additional recipies for carpenters using loam since they use several of the other rares already. This will allow 6 classes to be on each rare for adept 3s. For armorers/weaponsmiths to have some choices with rares incase one is more highly priced. It will allow both fighters and scouts to utilize both loam/hard metal still, and it will use up some of those loams at lower teir that someone in this post was saying just sit there after there aren't alot of people in that teir. It would bring loam into the rare fold, so it has some reciepies being used. The carpenter use for loams could be for something like walls, so those of us who love decorating don't have to use book cases to make walls or deviders, just make a square patch of wall tall or long and short ect that is the same basic shape as a back of a book case. have each teir be a different pattern...teir 1 basic wood, teir 2 stone, teir 3 brick, teir 4 wall paper design, teir 5 hedges, teir 6 gold scroll fence or something...ect. Make them stackable like book cases and the ability to hang things on them. Just a few ideas.
Banedon@Antonia Bayle wrote: Don't make inks required for Adept IIIs, make them an alternative to the rare (much like the old rare components were substitutes when they were removed from the game). That way you can use the cheaper and more readily available rares (fire emerald and tynnonium in T8) as a replacement for the rare loam. This adds extra fuel costs, but relieves the pressure on loams (thus also on scouts/fighters). Don't have dusts as an ink byproduct. Keep them as the Adept III byproduct, but add a recipe to grind the rare into some number of dusts instead of using them in an Adept III. Making inks required would suck just as much now as they did before they were removed from the game. Edit: Disabled inadvertent smiley.
I really LOVE the idea of bringing back Ink. I used not so long ago my last ink for a reroll... It was so good to be able to use them, not to be dependent on one type of rare raws.... Now everybody is farming for loam 'cause two archetypes are using them (as a priest/mage I have less problems because the soft metals are cheaper). If ink was put back in, all classes would have an equal access to adept 3 using one of the 3 type of soft metals/loams. What I would do would be : - soft metal and loams could be converted into inks at perhaps a lesser price than a "rare combo". - inks could be used by all classes as it was before the LU24 (I still hate this LU nearly 2 years after it) - all scholar classes could do the inks by doing a low level quest (of the same type as the quest for converting dusts from a previous tier), or several quests, one each tier - artisan level 1-9 would have inks in the normal advanced recipe book. - rare dusts would remain in game as a side product of ink (2 dusts for an ink) or as a side product for spells as it is now if changing the system backward is too hard to code (yeah, my husband is a ranger and I think that a change in the game system for dusts would be very very hard for scouts).
i like keeping the rare root in the bushes, it was a good change that balanced rare roots. adding loams for fish nodes would help them out the same way. loam could be viewed almost like a algae/moss. and algae or moss covered rock <ore> is a common occurance, as it is to find moss/algae at the bottom of a lake where slimy fish end up swimming through and the particles could get caught in the slime, especially carp /giggles. there would be some debate about loams dwindling in demand after spells are made, cause loams arent currently used in other recipies. well since recipies are slowly being added a little at a time, why not use a loam for them instead of a different rare? this would help the long term use of loams as well. gems -- jeweler/sage/carpenter soft metal-- jeweler/sage/carpenter ore-- armorer/weaponsmith/carpenter wood-- woodworker/carpenter pelt-- tailor/ jeweler root-- tailor/ carpenter loam-- alchemist think i covered them all. maybe a new set of furniture could be added for loams like dishes, since ores and gems are lighting, metal is vases, wood is furniture etc. have any new dishes come in be loams. also, loams could be used for a new cloak for tailors. the roots make stat cloaks, and the loams make ones with effects, which might go in hand with the new MC gear having effects on it. or loams could be used to make weight reduction bags, something about the magical enchantment a loam provides. really the options are open, and dont necessarily have to follow a pattern, though patterns are nice but with all the new types of items coming out, like mirrors and manequins etc, it wouldnt be hard to use loams to make those to help give the rare an extended use. like we suddenly have several different types of mirrors covering many tiers, and the **mention** in another post about the possibility of different races for the manequins at some point in the future. wouldnt necessarily need any current recipie tweakage if you just use the loams on new recipies. would provide a sooner relief for the high cost of loams, and as more recipies get added, should stablize the long term use of loams as the demand for spells wears down. just a couple side thoughts, and yes its late and im tired lol. and yes alot of my examples are carpentry but thats just cause carpentry is what i do so its easiest to come up with examples.
Meirril wrote: Right now, on Permafrost there are over 1500 smoldering materials for sale and that number will continue to increase. In an economy swimming with money they go for a whopping 50 silver each. That doesn't even include all those people who do not bother to sell them. I have close to 200 of them myself gathering cobwebs in my bank. Anyone complaining about a shortage of smoldering material is a lunatic.
I wonder if it would be easy to have fighter classes use rare hard metals to make their Adept III skills. However, it looks like a easy and simple solution to solve the current situation mentioned by OP.
Qandor wrote: T8 is a bad market to look at for imbue material. Lets face it, none of the imbued t8 products are flying off of the shelves. The demand is underwhelming, while the demand for spells and consumable products is high. This means a large amount of harvesting while almost nobody uses the imbue material. If you look at t3-6 you'll have a better idea of what would really be hurt by this. I think you'll find imbue material not quite so prolific and by percentage of a higher value.
