Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: Terron@Splitpaw wrote: So... now to quote you out of context and twist your words to my nefarious detente seeking schemes... I get that for you two (and plenty of others) the current crafting ease sucks. Here is my question to you now: Would you be happy if there was insanely difficult crafting available in addition to the insanely easy whack-a-mole system so many of us like for our day-to-day needs? It is already possible: for specific recipes to be scaled to be more difficult than other recipes (I think it was Domino who mentioned that Nest recipes are actually scaled to fail slightly more than ordinary geocraft/etc recipes). to make recipes that build on the work of others. to require interaction to craft a particular recipe all without removing the current system so abhorrent to yourselves yet so enjoyed by many. If I'm right, then it seems like there might be a possibility of future hope for hardcore and casual to each have a happy crafting niche without requiring (another) complete overhaul of the system, which would tend to push such an initiative completely off the radar for even the most enthusiastic of developers.
in a word, yes. If they brought in an upper tier of crafting that was harder and the products desirable then I'd be content. I wouldn't even care if the materials were all heroic and raid dropped and the recipes all quested to get. Even if I could only get one line of gear to make with it. Right now, I blow through writs. Timed writs with 3 minutes or more remaining when I'm done. I craft in my adventure gear, use no totems or special drink (basic provisioner faire for me). I've have no special crafting items to make it easier (never saw the need for them, why waste my time on things to make it even easier than it is now...). Implement that and I'd be content.
As a player who has been a Sage since launch (and the old-school interdepedancies AND subcombines) -- for the love of god.... DON'T DO IT. To those trying to dicatate how much things 'should cost'. If Sony wants to reduce the price, they increase the drop rate, if sony wants to incrase the price, they bump the vendor buy back. Nothing could be worse than dictating costs outright or making everything even. "Even" = "Same" = "Borning".... just deal with it. Go harvest your own, or craft and make some coin, sell a master, make a mint on selling shineys. Demanding everything be "simplified" and watered down just so its "fair" is a HORRIBLE idea. ~Edited to remove the unnecessary comment.
Gargamel wrote: No one is wanting it watered down...because the majority of us already think it is. As I said in a previous post...the problem isn't with crafting products. It's with the dependancy on the inflated market and adventurer's. Example: Just about every craft requires roots and more of one soft metal than another...those generally get highly overpriced on the broker, which drive up the over all costs of finished products. And no one is trying to dictate costs, where you came up with that I don't know, but you really should go and re-read those posts that you got that interpretation from. Rare materials overpriced = high cost final crafted product High cost final crafted product < commonly looted/quested treasure drops Commonly looted/quested treasured drops = lower market cost for looted/quested treasured drop All this means...a player is more likely to purchase the less costly treasured product vs the high cost crafted product which means crafted products become null and void and good for nothing but exp gain, time sink and vendor trash. Therefor saying rare material be 'made' and a crafter can only make rare material that is a primary for it's craft means less chance of high priced crafted gear and generates a competive market with the lower priced treasure. Its not flawless by any means...but as Domino said...increasing drop rates of one rare material now means 6 months later they lower that drop rate to increase another drop rate of another rare material. So...do away with that and at least put crafted into a competive market...
he's probably point to me. Yes, I think (note the terms there) that a good price for rares is tier x 5gp. I'm not saying to fix it there or require it to be there, but I think as a general rule of thumb, it is a practical base. Especially given what those rares are competing against in the terms of gear. Is it perfect? No, its not meant to be. I'm not asking for everything to be the same, the market will still exist and people will still sell for what they want to sell for. The only thing I am looking to see change is how 'rares' enter the market. Rather than applying it to a random lottery, apply it to a system where the end user can work towards getting their rare with a known destination.
I just really want to see the product be the point of interest not the obtaining of materials... I know first hand that it is more profitable for me to sell materials on the broker rather than make actual product...that is what needs to change... Material costs should be nominal, but also not trivializing it.... Crafted products needs a better competive market...otherwise will just continue to see price fluxuation and inflation shooting costs up to a ridiculous amount that it won't be worth the time to try crafting...
Unfortunately Rashaak, until there is some reason for the itemization to be higher there isn't going to be any real demand (other than situationally) for crafted. The devs have already stated that harvesting is low risk activity and therefore can not be the basis for anything to be itemized higher. I unfortunately agree with them. Only through some method of getting some 'adventurer risk' involved are crafters going to be allowed to make higher quality stuff.
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: Thats where I disagree... There basing itemization off of adventuring standpoint and it can't be viewed that way. It can't be viewed as a 'risk vs reward' for adventurers it has to be viewed as 'risk vs costs' for crafters.... Once they look at crafted itemization the way it's suppose to be looked at...crafting could possibly loose that 'red herring' effect its taken on...
That is just it bud. It is already done based on cost. The cost of a t8 mastercrafted piece is 10g. It is itemized as if it were 10 gold as well. The devs have stated several times (and I'm not looking) that rares/harvests are no value and have no basis in the cost. That means that it doesn't matter if rares jumped to 300p a piece on the broker, it would still be itemized as a 10gp piece.
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: Most t8 legendary gear sells to the vendor at about 14-26g each. Most t7 legendary gear sells to the vendor at about 11-21g each. T8 MC is 10 or 20 gold to make. I hardly think anyone is going to say that imbued armor and weapons compete with top end legendary t8 weapons. Vendor value does not equate to quality. If it did, I'd still be using my 60g to vendor level 40's HQ gear. The line of argument makes no sense, so drop it.
You want hard painfull and frustrating transmute, nothing like breaking down a pile of items with no posibility of improving your skill to find you got half what you should and of that half of it is junk you dont need. Then sitting making recipes that wont sell to maybe get a skill up and face the possiblility of an evenings work and a pile of plat later getting nothing. As to the return of ink as a 73 sage alll i can say is DIE
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: May I point to a thread I started a while back that died a very short death? http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=383375 It is about the idea of introducing group crafting. Think of it as forming a group of crafters to do an instance like adventurers would form a group to do an instance. The major difference is that I wanted it to be a bit Lost Dungeons of Norrath (from eq1) style in that you earned points towards being able to purchase rewards from the people who run the instance. I don't see any reasonable way to raise the difficulty of the current crafting system. Lets face it, you smash 1-3 buttons out of 6 choices every few seconds. Occasionally you feel some desire to match the icon the flash on the screen. If you fail, oops. You can make it up later. If you succeed...no significant change. All the proposals to adding more combines, more steps, ect ect ect is more of the same. Done in the same way. It is just more mindless drudgery to get what would hopefully be a better final product. It is all focused on the final product. Or is it just focused on getting us to craft more to make stuff? I don't think just adding a longer process to crafting is in anyway in and of itself an improvement. Now asking me to go out into the world and have to solve problems, and instead of swinging a sword I craft something to do that. That sounds interesting. Given a time limitation to complete the objective or a resource management puzzle (perferably both) and you have something. Let me give an example. Say you form a group with 5 other crafters and enter an instance entitled "Duodib's Automated Cake Factory". Once you all zone in you talk to Duodib who tells you that he has a rush order to produce 1,000 cakes for tonight's feast but his factory suddenly broke down and now he needs the machines fixed in less than an hour or he'll never make it in time! Timer starts for the entire group at 60 min. Each machine to be fixed lists how much of each interm product it needs to be made to fix it. Everybody receives a recipe book for the instance much like the crafting writs in RoK. When you finish the quest (success or failure) the recipes are removed. There are 2 recipes for each product. One using geocraft, and one using the "proper" trade skill. There are hoppers holding materials (unique to this instance) and fuel (the provided fuel is only used in these recipes, totally seperate from normal crafting.). In this case there are tin ingots, rubber, leather straps, nails, sack of flour, sacks of sugar, crates of eggs for materials and elbowgrease for fuel. When you use the proper skill, you produce 2 components instead of 1 for geocraft. Every skill should be represented somewhere in the instance in at least the subcomponents. When you finish making an interm product you place it into a crate for those components. When you finish making enough subcomponents to solve one of the "probelms" someone has to craft the solution. In this case, there is an automated frosting device, a rollervator oven, a batter gun, and you need to make enough batter to fill the batter gun. In total you'll be asking for 120 components to be made. This is about 20-30 minuites of crafting. So, what could go wrong? Accidents! During the crafting process you should have some random events going on in the instance. For instance you could have a fire start on one of the devices that damages the machine to where it needs an additional component for every 30 seconds it is on fire. You'd see a zone-wide alert to the fire and a fire effect. Someone has to rush over and...craft. Use the crafting interface and the completed product is an extinguised fire. You'll probably need some ingredients, water sounds likely. Though you might want sand and a few other subcomponents you'd find in an emergency kit somewhere near the rest of the materials. One of the clockworks in the factory could go haywire and start packing the finished interms into a storage shed. To stop the clockwork you could re-program another clockwork to "pack" the offending clockwork and then rescue the interm products. Of course another machine could break down and you'd have to fix it as well. There should be a number of possible events, and you should be guarenteed that at least 2 off of the list will occure while your there. It just shouldn't be the same 2 every time. This would keep people paying attention and keep it from getting booring. Anyways. Its an alterntive method for raising the difficulty of crafting that doesn't actually involve changing the crafting process. Group interaction where you actually have to communicate and cooperate will make this not only challenging but in an of itself a more welcome activity. p.s. If you have a full group of crafters that have done the instance before it shouldn't take more than 40 min of crafting time to get everything done. People will need time to communicate with each other! Not to mention moving takes time...
Meirril wrote: wrong. Yes, there are a few exceptions (HQ items have always been over valued at the vendor), but yes, 20gp for a piece of t8 MC gear and it is right about where t7 legendary is. Thank you for proving my point for me. Things in this game can be 'somewhat' itemized by their cost. The higher the itemization, the higher the cost. I've seen some treasured stuff going for around 20gp to a vendor in T8 and it was as good if not better than the t8 mastercrafted. The only place I've seen this not apply to is in regards to fabled gear. Fabled gear is way off the top end of vendor pricing and the t7 EoF legendary can compete with some of the t7 KoS fabled in itemization. Now ask me if I agree with this method? No, I don't. But it is the one they use. I myself have been told by devs that t7 MC only costs 4-5gp and that is it's value. They do not count the cost of the rare and it is itemized (roughly) by it's cost.
Meirril wrote: when they come up with a group crafting interface that works, I'll be happy to give it a try. Until then, it isn't a real option. I've offered suggestions that would help as well, but I doubt any at all will ever be implemented, in fact (I'm not looking at the moment) I think I even responded in that thread (or at least one very much like it)
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: I realy don't consider the treasured RoK cloaks (selling for around 11-14g to a vendor) to be nearly as good as the master crafted cloaks (takes 10 fuel). Also t7 crafting generally took 3g to make an item. 6g if it took 20 fuel. That means the value of master crafted items has trippled since t8. Legendary vendor prices did NOT tripple. They hardly increased at all. Again, I reasert that this does not fit with your conclusions. Either that, or the difference between very good legendary peices and imbued items such as wepons and armor should be a narrow easily bridged gap. I for one do not think this is the case.
Merilil, The conclusions I have are based upon what I've seen in game and read from devs, so I could be wrong. I don't think I am, but i could be. I know it isn't the sole 'itemization' factor, but it seems to hold true in many cases. And yes, I use a treasured t8 cloak (actually, I have several I carry) over a t8 mastercrafted due to the better bonuses I get from it. Regardless, the itemization on mastercrafted is currently correct. It is far too easy to get with little to no risk/effort. It shouldn't be itemized up with legendary and certainly not fabled. That is the problem. It isn't the process (solely), it isn't the fact that we are crafters that is the problem. It is the fact that our items are far too easy to get with far too little risk and effort. This isn't the 'dark ages' (ha) of crafting as some people call it, of which I'm not one. While it wasn't the sole reason of itemization, when we lost the complexity of the sub system, we lost one of the elements of the itemitization reason. When we lost dependency, we lost some. When we lost the chance of dying, we lost some, when they increased the rare rates and harvest rates, we lost some (each time). Little by little the whole reason to use crafted has gone by the wayside as we've lost reasons to be itemized high. If we want to see our gear itemized higher, we have to justify it to the itemization people who use a effort/risk to value system. How can we add effort back, how can we add risk back and not chase away all the people who now craft? I'm not sure you can, not with those restraints.
Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: From the sounds of it...raw material needs to have some type of purchasable/sellable value to it.
Rashaak wrote: the problem with that is, once you open that, you open it back up to plat farmers for 'easy money'. That is why they reduced the value of the product to fuel costs in the first place, bot teams were using crafting as a pass through to fast money through vendoring the subs.
Thud@Befallen wrote: Besides bring back whack-a-mole, I think the following would be enough: Increase the difficulty of all recipes in propprtion to the tier, and the quality of the product (handcrafted-mastercrafted-imbued-legendary-fabled) Add sets of crafting with bonuses sufficient to counter the increase for the equivalent quality of recipe. So a set handcrafting crafting eqipment would make handcrafted recipes almost as easy as they are now Add recipes that can be learnt whilst they are still red, even at cap. There are level 85 mobs in T8, so why not level 85 recipes. If you have equipment better than recipe quaility then crafting would end up easier. If you want a challenge you could try making stuff well above your level.
