Brawler mit increase

Test patch notes:
Brawlers
Bob and Weave and Inner Calm now give a small amount of physical mitigation.
Master of t9 is 1169, expert is 1023.
Not too shabby.


Seeing as it's pretty obvious they can't get avoidance tanking to work effectively, I'm happy to settle for getting up to the same mitigation levels that plate tanks do.

Sweet, do the plate tanks get more uncontested avoidance now?

Stikethrough immunity on shields and uncontest avoid on self buffs in 2011?

too funny. yeah i said years ago that avoidance tanking would never work. so now they just make brawlers into mit tanks. shoulda just made brawlers a scout class imo.

Plate tanks have pretty close to what brawlers get actually. A brawler's base uncontested avoidance is 17% (raisable to 22% with mythical and 27% with AA). A plate tank in a nice fabled shield (such as arc knight towershield) has a base uncontested avoidance of 20.7%. If you include the block chance inherent to the shield that raises to 26.3%. This is before you count things like the crusader's block chance AAs (and remember that 27% for brawlers is including the AAs).
Now, a plate tank does not receive quite as big of a benefit from +block chance as brawlers do, since this stat is modifying 27% for a brawler and 20.7% for a plate tank. However, this is balanced by plate tanks receiving a bigger benefit from +mitigation increase than brawlers receive (for the same reason--the mit on your armor is higher to start, so you're modifying a bigger number).
The other argument that could be made is that brawlers have more access to +block chance than plates. However, this is only really true when it comes to T1 and T2 items. Once a brawler gets into T3 equipment, that block chance is replaced by +mit increase and brawlers don't really have access to any more +block chance than plates.
Brawlers do have strikethrough immunity in defensive stance. On the other hand, plate tanks have all of their avoidance in offensive stance, while brawlers avoidance drops from 27% to 5% in offensive.
So the big picture is this: a brawler and a plate tank in mid-range raid gear have very similar amounts of uncontested block (27% vs. 26.3%), and similar access to gear to improve this amount. Brawlers only advantage in mit is that +block chance gives us a slightly bigger benefit, but this is balanced by the same thing occuring with +mit increase. At the end of the day plate tanks are already capable of reaching avoidance numbers very similar to what brawlers can do.
My experience tanking has shown plate tanks with avoidance lends essentially reaching pretty much the same numbers I can reach avoidance-wise, unless I do something crazy like put on two weapons with extremely low damage ratings to up my block chance.

A brawler can dual wield, retain his uncontested avoidance and strikethru immunity, and have mitigation approaching what plate tanks can achieve, all at the same time. Warriors and Crusaders do not have strikethru immunity at all, and lose their uncontested avoidance if they dual wield or use a two-hander.

Xalmat wrote:

True technically, but you're implying something that is completely false. First off, the only things in that list that a brawler can do that a plate cant is dual wield & have strikethrough immunity. The rest was just a list of things that all tanks do when they're tanking.
In order to have mit that even comes remotely close to what plate tanks have a brawler needs to switch out essentially every single piece of gear they own to swap in +mit increase gear. That nice bracer from 3-rune Theer with the awesome stats and awesome proc? Gone in favor of one from the x2 with 1.5 mit increase and 10 crit chance. Every single piece of gear from the offensive set swapped in for the defensive set. That necklace with 14% potency? Swapped for one with 1.5% mit increase and no potency at all. I have to swap out just about every single piece of equipment when I'm tanking, and I'm still nowhere near plate numbers. The result of all these gear swaps is that a brawler's dps absolutely plummets when we're tanking--and I'm talking dropping by 60-70%. We lose more than half of our dps going from offensive to defensive, more than any other tank sacrifices by far.
So yeah, we can keep dual weilding, sure. But what little dps that gives us is significantly less than the amount a plate can gain by staying in offensive stance (where you get to keep your uncontested avoidance and mitigation increase) and in not having to swap to gear that has absolutely nothing going for it except +mit increase.
Oh, and lets not forget that Knight's Stance lets a crusader do the same damage as dual-weilding while still wearing a shield too, eh?
Look, when there are as many high-end guilds out there using brawlers as main tanks as there are ones using Shadowknights, Paladins, Zerkers, or Guardians, then you guys can complain. In the meantime, I think its pretty ridiculous to try to pretend that we're oh-so-far ahead of you.

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

+1
I think if people spent half the time learning how to play their class better as they do complaining about other ones, there wouldn't be any arguments like this.

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Exactly. I do not know of a raid guild that has its focus with a brawler as the primary main tank. Doesn't mean that there are some that do, but I just don't see it.
Vinka's post is a direct hit of truth. Brawlers must make a choice. Survival = less dps and dps = less survival. Right now even a brawler in offensive stance is only slightly above or behind a zerker or crusader in dps yet the brawlers survivability is beyond sub-par. If anything brawlers while in offensive stance should bury zerkers and crusaders in dps since brawlers loose so much survival in offensive stance.
My hats off to Vinka. Great info.

Basically every tank is getting fixed or made even more beast except for guardians. Lawl GG Xelgad... well played.

Rahatmattata wrote:

Now I know you didn't miss the test update notes...so what is this nonsense?
I see a lot of Guard abilities changed from useless to very useful. I know my guild that has always used a Guard to MT just saw all the content get even easier...well that and we sport 2 rangers.

Rahatmattata wrote:

You need to read update notes because he changes to guardians after the NEXT hotfix ill make guard the best DEFENSIVE tank by far.
LMS will become tower of stone on crack.

Bruener wrote:

See, Guards complain, but they're still MTs in a lot of guilds. See above.
I have yet to hear of a brawler MT in any high-end raid guilds.

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Brawlers rock. That is all. Sorry for those that don't realize it.

Brawlers rock more because those who've stuck with the class excel as players. Unlike shadowknights or berserkers which excel due to class design. Tell me Bruenor, when was the last time you made the choice to go into defensive stance in order to survive? Have you even left your offensive stance this expansion? Or how about dropping half your potency and a quarter of your crit bonus in order to get avoidance up to brawler levels the way I have to to get my mitigation to be approaching plate levels?

Brawlers have 3 areas in which they currently fall well behind other tanks in. It is nice to see it being addressed.
1 mitigation, we are forced to use +mit gear to an extreme level to just complete with a plate tank in the tanking department.
2 ae agro, we produce the absolute lowest amount of ae agro of any tank class, especially when we are forced to turtle up because of #1.
3 utility, no group buff unlike other tanks who bring great things to the group.

Aule@Guk wrote:

The SKs and Zerkers you see rocking are for exactly the same reason. The ones that are good players. Yep just like every other class.
As for defensive stance, I was in it last night some. Any time we are working on a progression mob that I am tanking some I go into some +mit pieces and throw up defensive stance to get my mit to 75%. So yes I go into defensive stance a lot, and its not nearly as detrimental as people seem to make it out. Yes our Bruiser will sacrifice a little more DPS to go defensive, but the way I see it he is going defensive to get a few % less mitigation than me but he has a ton more uncontested avoidance than me. And he can hold agro no problem while doing it.

BChizzle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

I just don't get how you can be so obtuse.

Bruener wrote:

This is the problem. For you, going defensive involves switching in "some +mit pieces" and "throwing up defensive stance." For me, going defensive involves switching out about 70-80% of my gear and going defensive. For you, its not particularly detrimental. For a brawler, we're talking about losing half of our dps.
As for the brawler utility you're mentioning, there are 10 classes with avoidance buffs. All 6 fighters, both clerics, and both bards have avoidance buffs. And if the brawler is in offensive stance, then the plate tank buff is actually significantly better than the brawler one.