I originally posted this in general discussion, but was advised to copy it over here. There should be no reason why a shaman's primary healing function shouldn't work in these zones. Our overall output compared to other healers (and crusaders) is weak in comparison. Both were able to put out more HPS that I was with similar stats. This is with 9386 resolve and 1.04 mil+ potency in group. For reference, the fury healed for 1.14 bil, the pally healed for 970 mil, and I, as a mystic healed for 466 mil. Please make our wards worth casting again. I can't take a second expac of struggling to heal the tough content. It's beyond frustrating.
I have seen the same things as Aeras has presented data on. This would make the second expansion in a row, two years running, where Shaman operate completely differently in the zones that really matter. This causes some of us who play shaman to have to operate two toons: one to raid/do everything else, and one to be able to do these zones for the stuff that comes out of it which is needed elsewhere. It is simply not appropriate for one class to behave one way in most of the content, and behave a completely different way in some of the most important content. If nothing else, that's more work for the dev team to set up the "Shaman can heal" combat engine alongside the "Shaman can't heal" engine. Save yourself some work and fix this two-year old recurring problem.
Fun story about wards. Theyre on a first come, first serve basis. Meaning a Crusader's Aura of Leadership being a maintained buff and refreshing trumps your specifically cast group or ST ward. Stop grouping with crusaders if youre literally only concerned with what your HPS says instead of whether youre keeping the group alive. Now, I bet if you actually broke into that Pallies heal parse, you'd see a huge portion of the incoming heals being Blessing of the Paladin and Marr's Favor. Blessing is a ward very similar to Aura except its for the pally only AND it only works on physical damage. Marr's Favor is a heal that heals for a portion of the damage the pally takes. Now, if your pally is mostly taking autoattack damage as I assume they are, theyre going to self ward an astronomical amount of damage for themselves and heal a ton of what comes through it. Shaman wards may be broken, but not in the way you're saying they are.
Its always nice when one person posts data, and another person posts a remedial education from 2004, assumptions, and conclusions leapt to from them.
And it's always nice when folks dont understand group synergies. A crusader and a shaman are doing exactly the same thing. The screenshot is also healed outgoing. I about guarantee they didnt look at the INCHPS on each player establish what was healing who. Or understand why A solo healing shaman in a group without a crusader could point at it and say "yea, chaotic leach is probably too high". Simply posting your outgoing HPS in that group is silly. Of course theyre going to seem lower. I even pulled the Pallies eq2u to corroborate my "assumptions".
Just going to put this out there, as a mystic doing h3's without any significant source of wards in my group outside of my own. The bleedthrough in h3's is completely screwed. Personally checked through many a log file in the h3's for heals, and I can tell you the core issue happening in those zones, and btw it has to do with bleedthrough. Basically every different attack gets a separate bleedthrough number, so it isn't by mob or zone, etc but by each attack type. What is happening in the h3's for the most part the normal auto attacks and special abilities the mobs use are fairly reasonable, and typically add auto attack has very little bleedthrough. The issue comes into play that the majority of damage done in the game at this point is mostly "surge" style damage, and most encounters in the h3's have 100% or close to 100% bleedthrough on surge type damage. The thing is, when surge tics two shot groups, mystics are not designed to be able to handle that level of sustained direct heals, where as most other healer types have a somewhat reasonable way to handle the damage. Due to their buffs, even with that terrible handicap against mystics, they still make a reasonable second healer for h3's as long as you have some other way to deal with the direct damage the surge does.
Even on a first come, first serve basis, my wards should do SOMETHING. My logs show the ward casting and nothing is being absorbed. It runs out of time and disappears. Ancestral Ward, Umbral Warding, Umbral Barrier, Oberon, Ancestral Palisade, Spirit Aegis, Torpor, Prophetic Ward; none of the wards on these abilities hit and it's ridiculous for a class to have this many useless abilities. Even the wards that are added to cures through AA's don't work.
You're groupped with a crusader. Don't worry too much though, they're nerfing it again tomorrow so you can have your precious heal parse back. You can't ward a warded hit, for what it's worth. It occurs to me that the folks complaining about crusader wards don't actually take time to look further than their almighty heal parse, regardless of all the good things that come from not having to rely on having a shaman for every group in difficult content.
It's because bleedthrough is high still. Regardless of what other classes wards are doing in the group, comparing parses makes it easy to see how high bleedthrough is. [also high bleedthrough increases the chance that someone else's ward can do allllll the warding, preventing your wards from ever doing something, which in and of itself one person's spell not doing something because someone elses applied first isn't a problem, but one classes main source of healing being low altogether is a problem]. I run h2's with a shaman and they match me on heal parse, where wards are most of my heals on the templar. In h3's my wards are a much smaller percentage of my parse, everything else does more and on non trash stuff I can heal at least 4x the shaman. Looking at the last named in terrene, the shamans top heal was soul shackle and it absorbed on average 400 million. Umbral barrier from the shaman was absorbing on average 400 million as well. My tops heal was divine prayer(reactive) which on average healed for 1.2 billion. Divine guidance on average was 900 million. Impart faith, my group ward, also had an average absorption of 400 million. Bagpipes from the troub healed on average for 650 million. My total heals were at 3.2 billion, shaman was at 430 million, troub was at 190 million. Keep in mind this shaman matches me in h2s on the heal parse because wards. Incoming heals were 42% divine prayer, 14% field medic, 8% divine guidance, 5% divine waters, 5% glory, 5%impart faith(finally a ward). If you add up all the wards on me, it made a total of 13% of my incoming heals, including reprieve in that. In low bleed through content, wards are easily 50+% of the incoming heals. At least since it was reduced once, on trash the mystic can do like half my heals....so getting somewhere.
I don't think its really about the heal parse. It is more the fact that wards are up and unused while the group is dying. The constant spamming of the direct group heal ever since bleedthrough was introduced is getting old.. I would rather spent the time casting useless debuffs It is a problem that crusaders have a ward which conflict with a healer class primary heal method. Wards from different classes SHOULD stack and not conflict. In fact, they should stop giving every single class a warding ability. Why is it alaways wards and not heal over time, reactive or intercept? All those abilities such as Aura of Leadership should be changed to be a passive damage reduction.
Given that I don't run with a crusader in my group, and I can go into H3 with the exact same group makeup as I do T1 raids, and the amount I heal in both is vastly different, I wouldn't attribute the lack of wards hitting to having a crusader in the group. I've been seeing the exact same results in H3 zones with a zerker as the tank. Raids? Healing 2 billion+. H3? Healing 450 mil. Same group.
I don't want to have to group with a shaman whenever I want to push difficult content. Our guild has like 4 total across 2 raid forces. This gave that option. Again, I don't expect people to actually pay attention to good things when they offer diversity in group make up for successful content clears because most people can only see what's right in front of their noses. As far as Bleedthrough, it's a dumb mechanic. Nerfing crusaders does absolutely nothing to change that other than making content more difficult for you because the devs cant get itemization/mechanics correct
There's a large difference between chaotic leach in raids and H3, that right there reduces your ward amount. Add in the differing bleedthrough amounts and theres still no reason that nerfing crusaders will make you heal any more.
You all already should know that most of the healing (indirectly) comes from the warrior's group damage reductions and stone skins. Unfortunately, this is not displayed as value numbers in the ACT directly as healing otherwise you would fall over backwards. And them would not be influenced by chaotic leech, resolve and alot more other things. Nerfing the crusaders, again, to the ground just because ACT shows some heal parse values is absolutely idiotic. >>>At least to the developers, this doesn't seem to be really clear.<<< Too bad. As if numbers were in some way important in an unfair parsething tool, since it doesn't display many things in the same way as ACT.
Wasn't planning on replying to this, but no one is bringing up the real reason why the crusader nerf is happening, at as far as I understand from here say, from people familiar with the matter etc etc. Also btw, I personally almost never group with crusaders, and a nerf, buff anything has pretty much zero effect on me. From what I had heard, is that the ward, or bleedthrough had nothing to do with the crusader nerf, but h3's did have everything to do with the nerf, but not for the any of the reasons currently brought up. From what I understand, aura of leadership used to refresh every 6 seconds, now being changed to 20, but when it refreshed, it also reset everyones hp to 100 percent. With the massive surge in the h3's this made them significantly easier to survive with some healer types, and supposedly some dev was watching groups go through the zones and noticed this, and supposedly this was an unintended mechanic from aura of leadership in the first place, the full group topping off of HP. So the nerf was supposedly to lower the direct healing, which btw doesn't show up in ACT as a heal from what I have been told, not to mess with the amount warded. Everything else hurt by this nerf is supposedly just collateral damage. Sorry for the long winded explanation, but prose isn't a strong point of mine, and of course this is only what I had heard in rumors.
They fixed that with their first nerf 2 weeks ago. This is a straight nerf because folks are upset their numbers are smaller.
Good to know, like I said, don't personally ever group with crusaders so I didn't know, just figured that this nerf was related to that.
OP never mentioned nerfing crusaders. This is a feedback thread on whether or not the bleedthrough in H3 zones is too high and how bleedthrough as a mechanic unfairly punishes Mystics primarily but to lesser degree Defilers as well.
3rd sentence of the OP. Directly comparing themselves to a crusader. May not said directly, but it's clearly implied.
There's no call for a nerf to anything here but the amount of bleedthrough on wards in H3 zones which would actually help crusaders. The nerf to the crusader ward is unrelated to this thread.
