Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Pretext, Dec 5, 2004.
I agree 110%
ive grouped with quite a few guardians,they hold aggro fine now,and yes the can take a bit more dmg,and we can do a bit more dmg then them,we are talking about a 1-5% difrence here,nothing big,the classes are quite identical,and why use shield and a sword ?erm excuse me but why be a mana sink?when im MA i usually use a shield and a sword unless we got 2 healers that are swiming in mana,i didnt choose berserker to be the dmg dealer of the grp,i chose him cause i liked thier skills compared 2 the guardian.
I don't understand the problem. A standard group should consist of: a fighter, a mage, a healer and a scout.
Has the Guardian or the Berserker any problems filling his role in a group like this? I don't think so ...
When grouping 2 tanks a Berserker and a Guardian the role of Maintank needs to go to one of both, both of them
can fill the role. When using the Berserker as MT the Guardian can guard the MT to help the healing speed ...
When using the Guardian as MT the Berserker can take the role of Offtank should something go wrong with his aggro ability,
bur he needs to cut back on using his specials ... One scenario is speed effective grouping with higher risk when encountering adds,
the other scenario is a safer one regardign adds, but with a bit lesser dps ... It just comes down to stratics ...
I think the spell line are balanced mostly. But ppl have to understand to tank in some place berserker have to raise their AC if they want to be able to tank, that s mean use shield, Use Def skill over off skill(soldier stance etc).
In that point Guardian start with the advantage to start with a Class item far way better than many other class and can keep it during a long time. Bsk get a Crappy 2h that s just good to be sold to buy a better one or get DW combo.
I see BSk as a Taunt Tank and Guardian as Guarding Class who take care of the grp and protect them, and in that way that do very well.
I agree fully with Arden. This is a delicate matter you cannot simply bestow upon guardians some major boost to tanking skills. To do so rolls us back to EQL, where there is ONE MT and no other. And doing this does not just effect zerkers, it hits the crusaders hard as well.
I truly dont see the problems at level 30 and as was said many of you seem to be in your younger 20s and frankly you know nothing yet, heck at 30 i know near nothing. All this stuff should be put on ice till 45+ and end game content. As it stands now a guardian DOES tank better but not so much more then a zerker that people shun us lol.
Really if there should be ANY concerns...its that guardians end game may become so far superior that zerks and crusaders sit around LFG all day unless you have a good guild or static party.
So lets wait till end game before seeing what is what..higher I get the more an more I see guardians pulling ahead and honestly my DPS doesnt make up much for superior tanking, a monk blows me out the water.
I see Berserkers, Guardains, Paladins and Shadow Knights all doing the â€œTankâ€ role. I donâ€™t think we all mean the same thing by Tanking though.
For some its managing the aggro, for others being able to take damage and what gets through you act as a HP sponge, for some its doing damage.
If you picked your class for reasons which donâ€™t fit SOEâ€™s class definition you are going to be unhappy.
It is a complex issue, my own view is we should wait a month, let SOE look into it more before any adjustments are made.
How do wGuardians mitigate damage much better than Zerkers when we can Both use Heavy armor/shields/similar AC if not the same. The only difference I see is Guards get 4 Hps per stam point, zerkers get 3Hps per stam point, hardly an even trade for the big DPS difference between the two classes. So from a defensive perspective there reasly isnt much a of a difference, other than our buffs. Put us in the same group now we are near equal defensive tanks?
Again no nerfs are needed. Just tune the guards perhaps?
Ya the problem is bloodlust. Last night I was in a group with some friends and the main tank, a level 27 guardian would pull giants in Thundering Steps. So I watch him taunt a few times then I move in and all I do is autoattack, nothing else just autoattack. My bloodlust starts procing like made and within a few seconds I have agro. I never taunts or mauled or managled or anything. It seems to be much worse with dual wielding, when I use my two handed sword the guardian can hold agro a bit better but I always end up with agro before the fight is over.
You get better defensive skills that lower the amount of damage you and your group takes.
Which Skills are you refering too?
I can speak on the berserkers' side and say that we mitigate less simply due to the fact that we berserk. Our defensive abilities go way down when we are in berserk mode, thus lowering about ability to absorb damage. I'm very sure, though I ahve not personally experienced playing a guardian, that guardians get more defensive orrientated abilities and can protect their groups on the whole alot better. That is cut and dry as both class names suggest. Stop being so bitter.
"though I ahve not personally experienced playing a guardian"
If you sence bitterness in my post then you are not reading my statements, I am far from bitter.) But thanks for ASSuming as much
Glad to see you know how to copy and paste. Did you manage to read any of what I wrote or are you just being a wiseass? If you managed to read the rest of what i wrote you would have realized that i mentioned berserk mode. And if you read further you would realize that it lowers defensive abilities, and considering berserkers are in berserk mode alot they have lowered defensive capabilities, thus lowering their ability to mitigate damage. There is no berserk mode for guardians. What wise **mods 4 teh win!!1!** blurb can you extract from this paragraph?
Lets not forget that berserkers dont usually use soldiers stance as it has such a large hit to our attack abilities. A zerker with a sword/shield in soldiers stance is a guardian with none of the skills a guardina gets.
But seems the guardians who like to complain that they are such poor tanks with no defensive abilities over a zerker ignore the anything that doesnt fit their whine.
I am still laughing that at lvl 20-30 we are whining about OTHER classes
Document it, post it...get opinions on it and SOE WILL see it.
Log it....come with substanciated facts...drop the opinions and SOE will recognize it.
Guardians get many defensive abilities:
30.6 - Dig In : Decreases offense and slows movement but increases defense and mitigation
32 - Entrench : Slows enemy attack speed and movement but increases its defence
32.6 - Never Surrender : Shield part member from attacks + parry buff
35 - Topple : AE attack + AE attack debuff
37 - Call to Battle : Group offense buff + Self defense buff
38 - Vengeful Strike : Reduces damage but increases STA and hate generation
And that's just the 30s. Being a defensive tank dosen't just mean having a higher AC, or more HPs. You also get better debuffs to reduce enemy damage potential as well as increasing your own mitigation. Berserkers get none of this, and I'm certain it'll show more as we get farther from 20.
This is a decent post. There are other decent posts in this thread too, but I don't want to quote them all, as I 'need' to play
Ok, the point is this. Reading thru, there are a few opinions being made - not only from Berserkers - and the one thing they have in common, is that there is 'not' that much in common. This means, imo, that it is fairly well balanced and working as intended. I group regularly with a Guardian, and if he gets aggro, it is very difficult to get it off him - and vice-versa. Both of us have ways of mitigating each others' damage - Guard and Stand Firm/Intervene.
I concede that one or two of our skills generate massive aggro, but isn't that the point? Three weeks ago we had a problem keeping aggro, and then dragging mobs of healers. They fixed this. If you are off-tanking, then be careful how you use the aggro building skills - they can be turned on/off and used under different circumstances. Learn when and where to use them. This isn't a game where you hit the 'keep aggro under all circumstances' button, it has a lot more depth. People have cried out for depth and diversity for years, now you have got it. Learn how to play your characters. There are so many ways to do it.
In this game, there are no 'best' tanks, just 'tanks' that go about their business in different ways. Some of us are just 'better' than others, and make it appear that certain chars are 'gimped'.
My final point is this. When you have two tanks in a grp, it is 'not' a competition to see who can taunt off who. It is about keeping the grp allive in the best way, using the tools available. This game requires thought and cooperation, so 'think' and 'cooperate'
All i have to say is wow.....guardians who think they dont get defense skills or mitigate better then serkers obviously havent been playing thier class correctly or are lvl 20.....For the guy who said we use the same armor shield yada yada you also notice that it was posted 50 times that berserk lowers our defensive capabilities? The fact that we go berserk 2x doubles that increase......if your a lvl 22 guardian dont whine that the lvl 28 serker in your group is doing a better job tanking because if hes not .... then we need to nerf you, plain and simple, unless youre lvl 30+ or have talked with a 30+ guardian please dont comment on this issue, sure at 30 i can take agro off a 35 guardian easily with BL, but a guardian at 35 makes me look like a monk when it comes to tanking, no offense little guys, guardians get better over time as do serkers its been said 500000 times i think we just need to drill it into your heads, at 24 you get what? 4 or 5 new skills? you think theyre gonna be all that different to seperate the two classes? wait til u got 38 or so new skills and if at 50 serkers tank better then come complain to me and ill listen until then get back in the game and lvl ur char.....
Hisoka Zodyleck, 3x Berserker
Lol! Written language could do with a spruce up, but a nice summation
Separate names with a comma.