Beta Tank Changes

Discussion in 'Test Server Forum' started by Silzin, Apr 5, 2015.

  1. Silzin Active Member

    There seems to be a lot of talk about the tank changes, but there is nowhere for the conversation to take place, so here we go.

    I will not miss Recklessness Stance, but if the New Offensive Stance is going to be a non-tanking stance, all tank (Not just Brawlers) should not be able to tank it this new stance. Brawlers get way to much avoidance and Mit from our Defensive Stance to be able to survive against anything with this new Offensive Stance, but most plate tanks with a shield would be fine tanking most “easy” content, this looks like it is going to be way unbalanced.

    DPS – the Added Pot on Mit gear with the added 20% Pot on this Offensive Stance looks like it may help with dps, but I do not foresee any fighter using all of it being able to gain more then 10-20% dps over Defensive Stance. The Penalty for using this Offensive Stance is to steep and the dps added is not enough. I would love to see a “Balanced” thing added for DPS to this that is at least different for each Subclass. A nether idea for dps would be when in Offensive all Taunts will to Damage at ½ or 1/3 of its taunt numbers (1-1 would be nice, but may be OP).

    Next Agro management – Agro Management for tanks needs to be addressed in both Hate Generation and when DPSing Hate Dumping. As for Hate Generation, I think the Pot is a good start, but I think that added 1 more reforgable Stat to the armor would go a long way. Some may say that it would be OP but I also think it needs to be done to all armor and reduce the number of sets of armor. If you just add 1 more Stat to the Mit/Block gear then some other classes may want to start using it, but that’s ok, tanks are having such a hard time with stats and agro (outside of a perfect group) that I do not see it making tanks OP in reference to anyone. After all, I am getting good DPS numbers and still normally getting out parsed by some healers… When I am trying to DPS.

    Dehate when DPSing – the Neg 150% Hate was decent at letting us control our hate when Reckless, but the Neg Hate dropped when we were attacked at the same time Recklessness dropped. I would LOVE to see a separate buff, 0 Cast/Recovery, 30 sec reuse, that is -150% Hate and all Taunts are changed into Detaunts. (If they are not changed into damage) this buff would let us help us as tanks be able to manage your own hate in a way that only a monk with Evasion can reach. In order for tank to be able to work at DPS for a 3rd tank that can stay Offensive and be ready to pick something up when needed, the tanks need to be able to stay up on the hate list but not at the top.
    Tharrakor likes this.
  2. Ansom Active Member

    well, the pot change and the offensive stance change.. will be very nice for dps tank sk.

    On my monk, the CA have a very little dps.. the pot added is pretty much irrelevant for the dps but.. is nice for the taunt.

    I clic on the CA only for the proc and buff.. very sad.

    Dev have any plan for change the weapon melee dps?

    If not, will be lovely to see a secondary melee stat in the tank armor (like the cb/pot/stats/stats version, but with caster and melee stats (dps, haste, aoe, maybe some strikethrough for help some tank..), not caster / caster (reuse, casting speed, AM) only).
  3. Vunder Well-Known Member

    IF you are in offensive and want to dps then you should have an increase in mortality. I have always thought it was a dumb idea to be able to tank in dps stance when your job is to keep agro so REAL dps can do their job. However, it is rather hard to build and maintain hate without dps.

    It is also not the tanks fault for losing threat. When tanking lately I've come across alot of DPS that just want to go balls to the wall and ignore their threat meter altogether.

    This game has been in Zerg mode so long that strats and thinking has been out of the window. I say leave threat the way it is and make the dps do their job and manage their hate correctly. I actually FD'd a brigand the other day repeatedly (he left group finally) because the simply would not manage his own threat.
  4. Tharrakor Well-Known Member

    Did not notice this thread until now. Thank you for making a thread for it.
    I can already see how this is going to benefit crusaders more then any other tank by a lot.
    While it clearly says that deathsaves and block temps will not work during this new stance it says nothing about disabling the crusaders ability to heal/lifetap while they are in this stance. Also crusader Base spell dmg is higher then other tanks, especially Sk, this, combined with the ability to doublecast AEs is going to make SKs godly. I dont mind really tbh tho, i am happy balancing my dps in defensive stance. The addition of pot on tank gear made me very happy. Thank you for hearing our pleas!
    Even with this ill be running with one piece WDB for reforging but i dont mind that. Autoattacks is my bruisers main source for dps, and will still be with the pot armour, please do not nerf our autoattack!
    Also with all the lack of offensive stats we will not be able to afford getting abiltymod to match pot. As a bruiser i need a ton of strikethrough to up hitrates in order to hold aggro. This is a lot of reforging. But still, getting pot is waay better then nothing.
  5. Ansom Active Member

    On my monk the heal spell work like usual (in offensive).
  6. Azian Well-Known Member

    I'm not complaining about the potency addition, at all! It just seems that this change missed the point a bit as the concerns I saw being expressed in the feedback thread related to offensive ability while tanking were A) the lack of reforgeable stats on tank gear and B) lack of weapon skills causing poor hit rates (if I recall correctly on that last one...I didn't go back and dig through the thread.) Potency is fine but doesn't help me get my base stats up.
  7. Silzin Active Member

    Out of an average zone wide from me on my last raid I did about 3 mill ZW, I am not trying to brag, just set a benchmark. Counting up all of my CA’s (ST and AoE) also adding in all AA Attacks all together I have – 13 CA’s and 4 from AA, O also the Proc Combination AA. For this Matter I am not counting the damage from Taunts and Boneshattering Combination, since these 3 attacks together are the only ones that to decent damage.

    The top 2 attacks from this list in 1st Dragonfire since I was in Double Conversion, and the 2nd was Combination proc since I get a lot of procs. These 2 attacks are 261k all of the other 16 attacks combined add up to just over 200k. This means that all 18 attacks add up to 15% of this example parse.

    At that line on thinking, the 2 taunts and Boneshattering Combination all add up to 456k, so these 3 attacks make up the same % of dps as all of my other attacks together including Dragonfire. I just think that even if all of these attacks where multiplied by 3 or 4 times on Base #’s it would not make any of the tanks OP on DPS vs other dps classes.

    As for the Self Healing that SK’s, Pally’s, and Zerkers get I do not care, I just want to make sure that the Devs take a Good look at each Class when making the end Offensive Stance and balancing it.
    Liou_Unrest and Tharrakor like this.
  8. xkrisx Well-Known Member

    I'll throw my numbers out here for the purpose of Examples being needed.

    I MT'd last night and will use Molten Pools as a baseline as its probably the one zone, everyone can kill that has anything to do with raiding.

    So... Group was Warden / Defiler / Dirge / Coercer / Ranger / ( Bruiser ) Me

    My Zonewide was 4,420,490.42 so, 4.4 Million ZW DPS

    Auto Attack = 32% = 1.4 Million ZW DPS

    These are all other people's procs and damage.
    VC = 17% = 748k ZW DPS
    Ward's Bane = 12% = 528k ZW DPS
    Peace of Mind = 5% = 220k ZW DPS
    Primal Instinct = 3% = 132k ZW DPS
    Chilling Vengeance = 3% = 132k ZW DPS
    Crypt's Revenge = 2% = 88k ZW DPS
    Nihilistics = 2% = 88k ZW DPS
    TOTAL : 1.9 Million Total DPS

    I have 2 combat arts that reported higher then 1% ZW DPS
    Boneshattering = 4% = 176k ZW DPS
    Slurred Insult = 2% = 88k ZW DPS
    TOTAL : 264k Total DPS

    I have 3 other things that I personally use that was more then 1%. Proc Effects :(
    Ancient Stamina V = 2% = 88k ZW DPS
    Crane Twirl = 2% = 88k ZW DPS
    Fortitude Stand = 2% = 88k ZW DPS
    Mantis Bolt = 2% = 88k ZW DPS
    TOTAL : 352k Total DPS

    That brings me to a grand total of 3.9 Million DPS of my Zonewide being from Procs / Auto / 2 CA's and Other People.

    So, this meens that the remaining 500k DPS attributed to my DPS was from a combination of my other Combat Arts or random effects in raid from other people. Do you realize we have about 20 combat arts remaining and they arent even totaling 500k DPS for a zone wide parse.
    Going by the numbers I rand on Live vs Beta with the Potency being added to fighter gear, it was about 20% increase to combat art damage. So given this number, we can theoretically take the 500k DPS and times it by the increase and get a rough estimate to what the 200ish extra potency would provide me in a raid. 500,000 x .2 = 100,000. So 100k DPS = 500k DPS = 600k DPS .. This is NOT going to be enough of increase to accomplish the increase to fighter DPS you are looking for.
    Disclaimer: Yes, the numbers are going to be off for total increases and yes I realize that in combat and different raid forces / fights will have varying results. However, this is still a great estimate as what to expect.
  9. Koko Well-Known Member

    I get to be "that guy"... ='(
    Its difficult to compare standing values to group or raid values, as these are often drastically different. For example, a fighter may have 600 potency self-buffed but in a group (+5x winds/spirits) this becomes 785 potency...which is a very different number. Other group wide effects (e.g. practiced tactics) which are common in raid may further change this value. Without knowing what your effective potency is in raid, it is impossible to translate the planned potency increase into meaningful numbers.

    Mantis Bolt & Crane Twirl are modified by potency and should be included in your calculations.

    The devs haven't provided a benchmark for what they want/expect, so I can't comment in that regard. I can comment that the proposed changes will allow my playgroup's monk to out-damage the warden assuming they aren't B.B.-Cheesing names/scripts for 3~4m free EncDPS. It will also likely cause them to go below 600 dps mod for additional ability modifier, because the EncDPS returns will be higher, but that is pending simulation (no sense in doing detailed build planning for test values). So there is that.
  10. Mahgnus Member

    Firstly I would like to address this misconception, SK's are the only tank currently with ca/spells large enough to warrant serious consideration of potency stacking in a dps setup. Paladins ca's/spells are just as inferior as all other fighters are. This can be proven though empirical data, please do not continue to lump Paladins into generalizations. This is about the 4th time I've seen this over the course of the test changes and its simply flat out incorrect.

    Already addressed

    Wait .. what.. Are SK's "godly" dps currently?. Of course they aren't. Current Reck stance double your potency, So how is a lesser amount of overall gained potency going to increase SK dps?

    Ah, now it all makes sense.

    Look man, I'm not trying to be abrasive with you but Crusaders are in a awful spot atm in this expansion. There is not a single thing a Crusader can do this expansion that a Brawler or a Warrior cannot do better. So please stop posting incorrect information about Crusaders.
  11. Denaso New Member

    The nitty gritty of game mechanics isn't my strength but I do know from running ACT that something like 90% of my dps as a bruiser comes from auto attack and some added potency isn't going to change that more than a few % points.

    I would *love* for my CAs to be my primary source of damage but at this point that would change the way the game has worked for years so I don't expect that to be changed. Also, doesn't basically every melee class get nearly all of their dps from auto attack? Changing that would be a fundamental rework of the core mechanics of the game.
  12. Silzin Active Member

    Xkrisx – it looks like your conclusions where the same as mine, I took the approach on just looking at the Attacks and you broke down the parse and looked at the remainder as our Attacks. Also your numbers are right about the same as I was getting. It would be nice to see the buttons that we push make more of the difference then just 500k out of a 4+ mill dps parse.

    Koko – If I am understanding what you are saying then we can utilize the changes as is to get over the Healers…. Ok good, In Defensive that is nice, but in Offensive we need to be able to compete with the T1 DPS Classes that are Slacking, and I just do not see these changes letting me compete with classes that on a bad day can triple my parse.

    Also I would Love to see a separate Buff would be independent of Stance that would give the -150% Hate and maybe a bit more Dehate options. (Looking at Rescue) something as simple as 0 cast, 20 reuse, 0 recovery, -150% Hate Gain, and turns Rescue (or 1 other Class unique Snap) into a De-Snap.
  13. Mermut Well-Known Member

    Uhm... why should a tank be able to compete with T1 dps when they're not tanking?
    By that 'logic', healers should be able to do the same when they don't need to be healing.. both of those ideas are silly.
    'dps-ing' tanks (and healers) shouldn't EVER be competing with T1 dps
  14. Silzin Active Member

    Healers already can, or at least some of the healers i have seen. Also Yes a Fighter when not in Tanking mode should absolutely be able to compete with Lower end T1 dps. I am not saying a DPS Fighter should be able to out parse all T1 dps all of the time, just if they are slacking then... Yes. I.E. If that Assassin is not paying close attention or does not know how to play there class and I am a very good monk in DPS Mode then yes I should be able to out parse them. As it is on Live when Tanking I out parse some of the DPS that are not geared up as much as I am… but the better DPS in out raid do 3 to 4 or more times my parse. I do not expect to ever match the ones at the top (there are about 4 people that are always at the top) but there are some that just are not and a fighter not tanking should be able to out parse them … yes. (Fighter and DPS classes can be changed for your situation)
  15. Mermut Well-Known Member

    Why should tanks be able to perform two different jobs at top level but not every other class?
  16. Silzin Active Member

    All other class roles there are a need for more than 1 of in a group or raid. However, tanking is normally not this way. When the raid is dealing with Trash between named having 2 or maybe even 3 tanks is not bad, but not needed above just the 1 MT. on most named there is only a need for 1 MT and maybe 1 OT in case the MT goes down. But there are some fights that there is a need for 4 tanks and it is better for the extra 1-2 tanks not to just be Alts brought in for the named as needed, but to be full time raid fighters that are getting geared all the way along.

    This is the same reason they put Recklessness in the first place, So the Devs obviously see the need for fighters to have something to do when not tanking.

    Edit: BTW – I would think a similar argument could be made for healers, but removing 90% of the healers ability to heal and give then near T1 dps would be … interesting.
  17. Mermut Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying they should be able to do some dps.. but it would make more sense for them to be t2 dps not t1.
  18. Tharrakor Well-Known Member

    BS man! Total BS! First of all i said crusaders becuz they have spells, Wich doublecasts. I play a pally too and hes easymode in heroics. Lack of stoneskins being the most annoying setback. I do not sit here and fantasize i play the game and i observe. Ive seen a Sk mass pulling oss contested with 7k mit! Ive seen a Sk pull 10mil dps while tanking massive crowds! This is by sacrificing defensive gear for sum offensive, with these new changes he wont even have to sacrifice that much for it! And since he was tanking he did these numbers without Recklessness!

    Dont give me attitude becuz you believe crusaders are in a bad spot but i happen to disagree!

    SK>pally sure. But pallys aren't bad.
  19. xkrisx Well-Known Member

    I'd be happy with Brigand lvl DPS as a bruiser when not tanking... :)
    Silzin and Mermut like this.
  20. Achirin Active Member

    So short and too the point, I don't see this change helping my bruiser enough to want to tank. I tried to tank BBC and help people level over the double exp weekend and it was painful with the Brig tanking more than I was really.

    As pointed out, all other arch types have a minimum 4 in raid, really 6-8 (healers being the low number here). Tanks get 2 maybe 3. I do agree T1 is a bit overboard. In offensive I think we should be T2 however a good T2 can beat a bad T1 which I think is what he was aiming for. Scouts by the way do get 2 different jobs at top level since multiple raid fights call for scout tanking so why is it fair they be the only ones? =P

    According to the progression by classes Bruisers are actually in the worst spot. Seeing as I have a Bruiser, Pally, and Berserker I can personally state Pally is far easier to tank with than the Bruiser. Additionally my guilds raid uses an SK for the MT and Guardian for OT, with a Pally for backup OT (maybe even 2 of them). I started Pally at launch, but changes to Bruiser in SF, honestly I don't tank with either so far this expansion as it's just terrible.

    This would be fine if Daybreak/SoE would cut the DPS check scripts. If those DPS classes slow down to accommodate the threat meter then some fights become impossible. Example second named in Molten pools if you can't hold agro while DPS burns down those titans then you never get to DPS the named. Stop DPS checks and THEN we could talk about making the DPS classes slow down and manage agro.

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