Aeralik (Chris Kozak): "You have a defined role which is tanking. I am well aware though that guardians are far beyond everyone else in tanking especially raids. I have said a few times recently though that we will not be making any changes in the short term. In the longer term there are some changes to enhance survivability of the non guardian fighters but nothing concrete that I can commit to or comment on. I would expect to see some of that in the fall though and perhaps some discussion at fan faire if the question is brought up." Layman terms: Bezerkers are really tanks, not plate assassins (though I play an assassin). We are well aware of the fact that we have gimped your class and we are not going to do anything about it in the near future. You might see some improvements toward becoming tanks again if you buy the new expansion in the fall, but I cannot guarantee nor comment on this. We suggest you bring this topic up at fan fair so that we can offer a few kind words to comfort your fears.
I don't just want #%&#ing survivability... I'm semi OK with the status on that pre-mythical epic. I want positional #%&#ing aggro I also want a #%&#ing tanking epic. Aerilik... READ THE FORUMS... We are telling you what we feel we really really need and you are really really not paying attention.
jaguarjp wrote: Yup... but they think that new role is tanking multiple encounters at once... but then they don't put multiple encounter pulls you can typically live through in high end zones. If you are lvl 80 and you pull 3 encounters that are lvl 83+ then you are probably going to die unless you have a mezzer or multiple healers... if you have multiple healers you don't have the DPS to really be pulling mulpiple encounters at once and consider it efficient... if you have a mezzer you are not AEing. So that's the issue... they have decided we are the tanks for tanking multiple encounters... BUT... they failed to figure out a way for us to live through it and still be considered efficient. We do well on multiple mob single encounter pulls too... but not so much better on aggro to make the guardians look bad... which since they make us look so bad on everything else we need to make them look bad on this.. and we don't. Reactive taunts on defensive stance combined with encounter based attacks and taunts usually do "OK" when combined with telling people to assist target and watch AE damage. So the problem isn't that they need to figure out a new role for us... the problem is they picked it... didn't think it out very well and it ended up sucking 95% of the time.
i don't know why you continue to beat the dead horse, you were just told for the second time that there will be no changes made to this class for at least 4 months.
*Whak**Whak**Whak**Whak**Whak**Whak**Whak**Whak**Whak* But Dead Horses are fun to beat and make squishy sounds and stuff. They also don't require to gain aggro.
jaguarjp wrote: I did not roll a Zerker to be a CHAIN TANK!!! I rolled a Zerker to be a freakin MT.. why are you people missing this???? Yes, developers painted themselves into a corner on this.. Guardians should NEVER match the DPS of a Zerker (compared equally), period! The Zerker class needs minor tweaking, however Aerilik and the other developers seem to think that Zerkers, SK's, Brawlers are just going to sit around for another year waiting for them to do something.. guess what, we wont. Its that simple.
I also did not roll a zerker to be a chain tank... nor to be a DPS class. Back in the day we had archetypes and they were truthful... FIGHTERS = TANKS WARRIORS = ALL MITIGATION TANKS GUARDIAN = SLIGHTLY MORE AGGRO FROM TAUNTS ZERKERS = SLIGHTLY MORE AGGRO VIA DPS BRAWLERS = AVOIDENCE TANKS BRUISERS = MORE DPS MONKS = MORE OF SOMETHING... MAYBE TAUNTS CRUSADERS = MITIGATION AND UTILITY PALADIN = MORE DEFENSIVE VIA HEALS AND WARDS SHADOWKNIGHT = MORE OFFENSIVE VIA NUKES The intention I think all along was that all tanked equally in groups because the debuffs or heals or dps etc balanced out group content nicely. On Raids though I am pretty sure it was always intended for the Warriors to be the clear winner... I mean a Crusader's utility is nice but utility doesn't need to be added by the tank on a RAID... you have 23 other people to add utility. Like wise DPS from brawlers is great in a group but on a raid what is really needed is mitigation for spike damage. I think this was the plan from day #1. At lvl 50 thinks started changing... zerkers I think did more DPS than they planned... and they were worried... they started focusing the zerker on AE modeling it after Destruction.... In DoF they added open wounds and Insolent Gibe... and ever since then we have been "the AoE plate tank" But our DPS was still high through DoF... and all the way through KoS we were the DPS tanks with a focus on AoE. In EoF the started hitting us with DPS nerfs by boosting Guardians due to incessant whining... they moved them to the same auto attack dps tables as us... and they have them 10% more double attack. Not sure what other factors were put in but te end result is on single target mobs in EoF our DPS was near identicle... but they had better taunts, positional aggro tools, tower of stone, etc. In RoK they just put in the last nail on our coffin via the new abilities and the mythical epics.... They boosted our role as AoE Tanks BIG TIME with the mythical... we can do AoE damage that makes me happy in my pants... problem is we can rarely do it because most mobs are single target encounters and unlike guardians we can't use a tower shield and get our STA line to work... so while a guardian can live through 3 mobs beating on them using thier safety tools etc... we really can't... and a dead tank = dead group... so we don't pull a whole room at once.. which means our epic gets put to little use.... this is even more true on raids. While I love the AoE because it allows my DPS to shine on occasion... the fact of the matter is on most raids Well equipped and buffed Guardians keep pretty good pace with me due to the nature of the pulls... and the fact they have been boosted to pretty much match us single target but tank way better. I do not want the tables turned... I don't want to see Guardians suffer... however if we are not to have the positional aggro tools... or single target taunt values of the Guardian.. or teh ability to wear a tower shield without sacrifcing dbl attack... well I want my single target DPS edge back... I want enough of it back that I can hold aggro from an assassin who plays CORRECTLY (not opening with a backstab and ignoreing the evade button) without the use of a Dirge or Warden to get my +slashing high... while staying in defensive. Truth of the matter is that I don't like going anywhere without a dirge or warden anymore... I'd rather log out and go mow my yard or do the dishes... maybe change my son's poopy diaper. If that is the level of fun SOE wants me to have in my average group then I am not sure why I continue paying my bills.
Skoshi@Guk wrote: Well from what I see bruisers aren't the dps they once was with this expansion, but I do agree with your post here. Well stated.
Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: If you quit, can I have your stuff? Especially your DPS. And your Aggro . Oh, and your Hit points. Umm, ok, mabey your Avoidance too. Umm, can I just have your toon? lol, sorry for the shameless hijak, I'll be on my way now... gl zerks, you know we are cheering for ya!
Skoshi@Guk wrote: given your statement is right when everything went askew was around 50ish, but way i seen it your origanals were way off im going off beta boards of course but this was what i got out of it Guardians defensive tanks tanked sheerly through mitigation and taunts very very low dps (like teir 8 would be 1kish basically dps useless low avoidance) problem: not only are they king of defensive tanking they also or beat every other tank class in dps my Fix: lower guard dps to 1/2 or mor of what it is now and make taunts super effective (say 7k hate a taunt at master 1) zerkers: offensive tanks tanks through sheer mit and dps for agro(only diffrence being a much larger descrepency and lack of personal mit buffs of dps say were they are now agro maniac low avoidance) problem: agro is a major problem oh and their epic adds to points that dont exsist end game (see aoe) my fix: give zerkers a huge taunt increase and a innate defensive ability even if its just a temporary buff, im also gonna go out on a limb and say increase single target dps. shadowknights: tanks through mit and avoidence held agro through dps(though not as much mit as a warrior and not as much avoidance as a brawler. once again major agro magnet high dps minus some of the defensive capabilitys. made up for semi low avo/mit with MEANINGFUL lifetaps) problem: agro is horrible dps is extreamly low avoidance sucks, and lifetaps mean jack **** in the raid game my fix: make siphon hate 6% per group member and stackable with hate transfers, increase dps by atleast 150% and make sks lifetaps all wards that stack on eachother double lifetap amount (note may be a tad overpowered needs testing) make HT a 15k deasease damage unresistable and cannot crit paladins: tanks through mit and avoidance (see sk explenation as how) and major Self healing abilitys to make up for any lack in mit/avoidance very low dps (only slightly higher then guardians if 2 equally played toons guard does 1k paladin does 1.3k) problem: paladins have low dps compared to other fighters (only take into concideration if all other changes are not made) heals are on long casting timers easily interuppted and are so minute they are worthless, agro should also be slightly ajusted as its a tad bit to easy (once again only if all all other changes are made) my fix: lower paladin dps slightly, make heals wards and the group heal a ward and make all paladin heals (minus group heal {now a ward}) self only increase amount by 4 times make it a .5 second cast and uninteruptable. make loh a ward and make it ward for 15k at master 1 (at 80) and cannot crit. make amends from 41% to 30% (at m1) taunts weaker then warriors and wipe the sigil line and make it a defensive temporary buff. monks: avoidance tanks lack major mitigation, but makes up for it with extream dps (just below scouts and mages) have decent agro, also offer decent utility. problem: dps is slightly low and avoidance tanking is pretty useless in endgame without atleast decent mitigation. fix: change game mechanics around avoidance tanking, increase dps bruisers king dps in fighter bracket low utility avoidance tanking my fix: see monk.
Aeralik: "No I said in the short term there are no big changes planned. In the long term anything is possible and its highly probable you will see some nice changes". "...I am well aware though that guardians are far beyond everyone else in tanking especially raids. I have said a few times recently though that we will not be making any changes in the short term. In the longer term there are some changes to enhance survivability of the non guardian fighters but nothing concrete that I can commit to or comment on. I would expect to see some of that in the fall though and perhaps some discussion at fan faire if the question is brought up." Having been a game developer myself, I understand that large changes require time to implement and test before they can be released. But to expect the fighter community to wait four or more months and purchase a new expansion before "probably" seeing any improvement is unacceptable. I have read through some countless articles posted on these forums, by some truly great players who have taken much of their own time to provide a wealth of insight into the game. Many of the posts and articles offer exceptionally wonderful ideas for improvement, some of which could be implemented with simple tweaking. With all the ideas and discussion which has transpired back and forth between developer and players in these forums and others, I am beginning to feel as if our relationship as customers is being overlooked or taken granted for. I also feel that a level of understanding in the amount of investment in personal time and money which each player has invested is also taken for granted. Professionally, I would like to see an apology offered to the entire fighter community as well as some sort of appreciable immediate improvement offered for compensation of the neglect they have endured for the past two years. This compensation will provide patience for the adjustments needed for long term improvements. Anything short of this would be considered infancy and will certainly result in a loss of face.
Yeah, well at least we got past the first barrier which is normally the hardest. The Dev's have openly admited that there is a problem and reconize that is needs to be fixed. I completly agree with VRYsmlANML and just admiting there is a problem isnt enough. It really comes down to laziness there are several fixes that are simple tweaks and could be implimented next GU. Like Fixed description or making abilties actually do what they say they are supose to do, but no they simple push us to the side because for better or worst the raid zones can be tanked using a guardian and there are what 6 fighters classes and how many dps classes....... The math says it all and that is why you are seeing the concentration on the dps class such as coecers, assasins, rangers whether it being nerfing or buffing. It really sucks, but as he said they arnt going to do anything about it in the near future. At least we can thanks him for be honest with us and not just leaving us in the dark and to that i say thanks. It doesnt mean i like the answer or the way I/we are being treated.
well yea, i appreciate the honesty but i really don't know if it really helps or promotes the issues of people quitting/betraying. i just dont foresee things going well with only 1 tank class at this point in time, it's too late to force consolidate. people spent time and money on their classes, effort they would rather toss in the can and walk away from than start over on this late in the game.
