Berserker/Guardian CA Comparison

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Dimglow, Nov 1, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-Obadiah Guest

    Kemt@Venekor wrote:
    But an upgrade to Berserk as it stands now won't really get us anything. What good is more haste/DPS? Who is NOT well beyond the diminishing returns curve? I had never really paid attention when soloing before but I did some solo writs last night, and in every fight I was over 100 haste and DPS. In a raid/group depending on setup I'm spiking over 200 in both. That's a big part of the problem. Guardians who maybe DIDN'T have that degree of haste, will certainly have it now by tossing a few points into INT. Samies with DPS/WIS. But those new KoS points don't really benefit us. There's no meaningful place left to put them.

    I think your suggestion of making the Berserk add crit % or double-attack, or increased CAs . . . pure genius. Since Juggernaught adds the CA damage and crits, I'd vote for double-attack.

    I suppose on the flip-side . . . getting rid of some of the haste/DPS gear is an option as well.
  2. ARCHIVED-Necodemus Guest

    Igixnasii wrote:
  3. ARCHIVED-Necodemus Guest

    Nice post btw Kemt.
    And I do agree to add a + crit/double attack on our self berzerk proc ( perhaps change the End Line AA of Berserk to this )
    Kemt@Venekor wrote:
    You're near the reality.
  4. ARCHIVED-Obadiah Guest

    Darkhain@Venekor wrote:
    No we have the 2nd deathsave too . . . the same Unyielding Will that Guards have. But yeah, the HoT one can occasionally be helpful in a group or soloing, but never ever ever ever has it done anything helped me on a raid.

    The AEs are worth using IMO on multiple target encounters. Worthless on single target though.
  5. ARCHIVED-Igixnasii Guest

    Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:
    I have found the HoT deathsave useful during raids on its own, but only if berzerk and not while tanking, but combined with unyielding will (which won't kill the zerker if the 5 aa points are spent but will still kill the guard) it's a potent 75% health refresher which is extremely effective. Guards get no real deathsaves... just an extended death avoidance. It's a huge advantage to the zerkers survivability in my opinion.

    I find the frontal AE useful against single target raid mobs during a the pull as it can be launched 2 seconds before a mob gets within range of all the other attacks and contributes a reasonable amount of instant damage.
  6. ARCHIVED-InsaneChaosMarine Guest

    Igixnasii wrote:
    Im sorry, but you can nolonger stack the skills, and Unyeilding will stopped working if your hit 2 seconds before your supposibly dead (The Delay kills you) Unyeilding will is now worthless, Plus it nolonger stacks with VoM, if you have VoM on and it on, it says it works, but you nolonger get the 35% extra health you used to, so your points Very Mute, sorry [This is a GU39 Bug that never got fixed]
  7. ARCHIVED-Igixnasii Guest

    InsaneChaosMarine wrote:
    I dunno where you got that from but I just tested it in the game both skills worked exactly the same as they did in the past. VoM triggers and stacks with Unyielding Will and Unyielding will kicks out an instant 35% health bonus on death.
  8. ARCHIVED-LygerT Guest

    InsaneChaosMarine wrote:
    maybe it's a bug for you, but it isn't for most people who use it properly. they both stack and work perfectly fine, however you can't hit it 1 second before death and expect it to work, there is a small issue of server lag to consider.
    VoM has always been the weaker of the 2, if you wait too long before casting UW then you can die from VoM outright if you are not berserk or are hit hard enough with a single hit to counter the first heal it procs. i never rely on VoM so i always stack them unless fighting weaker mobs that rarely can blast through that 7% per second heal.
    problem i am having with all of this is there is still quite a distinguishable difference in DPS between the 2 classes at lower levels, once dimishing returns curve is taken into effect this difference becomes less and less where all tank classes are almost equals in the DPS department. the easiest way to counter this would be to bring the curve up for the zerk class, a much simpler fix than going through all of the BS and calculations that we have been trying to figure out. in short, raise the dimishing returns caps for zerk class would be the easiest fix, they can keep their defensive stance since we are an offensive tank.
  9. ARCHIVED-BoneSmasher Guest

    Hi fellow warriors!
    It is entirely possible that I am misunderstanding tthis thread, but at the risk of that, I am going to say this:
    It sounds to me that this thread is really focused on end game play at the raid level. With that in mind, there are some valid points.
    However, I am pretty sure that SONY balances the classes based on treasured gear and adept I's.
    So if you take a guard and a berserker, put them in identical treasured gear with all adept's, I think you would see there is a significant variance in DPS and Defense between the two.
    However, as gear changes to the optimal for the class at the raid level, add in Master abilities, toss in 100 AA point and I think the gap narrows significantly. Which is exactly what every one wanted a while ago when there was all the hue and cry about class balancing. People wanted less variance between tanks, (including crusaders and brawlers.)
    The idea at the time was that any tank should be able to tank equally. That was probably achieved for the most part for group content. I don't think you can balance that very well for raid content. At least, SONY has not had much luck at it.
    So for the sake of this discussion, if you parse out a zerker and a guardian, self buffed at the "balancing" level of gear and CAs, I think you will find them to be exactly what you guys are talking about here.
    Beyond that, gear and spell quality and AAs narrow the gap and reduce the flavor of the tanks at the upper end.
    I am not sure if that is what was intended by SONY, but it does seem to be the result.
    As far as perceptions go, Guardians may be the first to pop into mind for raid tanking, but at the end of the day, anyone who has half a brain for raiding is going to consider player skill _ gear + CA quality into the mix. Great gear can offset a poorly skilled tank to some extent, but a highly skilled player can and does overcome his gear. (within reason of course.)
    But, let's face it. When it comes to holding agro at the raid level, the tank does not and cannot do it with the skills and abilities given by SONY anyway. You still have to have agro management support to have a prayer of holding agro unless your raid force truly sucks on the parse.
    The other thing to bear in mind is that the specific skill Guardians get, such as goading assault, are fine except that the taunt does not proc unless the dmg portion hits. So it has a lot of variability in effectiveness.
    A big issue, as has been discussed here some, is that taunts at the raid level are pretty useless. They work great for group content, but imho are pitifully weak for hold raid agro compared to pure DPS.
    If anything, and I think this was mentioned, DPS plus Taunts should be about equal between guards and zerkers, with zerkers having an edge on the DPS side. That makes perfect sense to me.
    So, for me if SONY would please increase taunts for guardians and bump DPS for zerkers, that would probably resolve the issue. If they nerf guardian DPS, truest me, the betrayal line will probably form in the other direction.
  10. ARCHIVED-LygerT Guest

    that is basically what i was trying to say, if they upped the dimishing returns curve for zerks i think it would cure some of the woes that our class is and will continue to be crying about. not necessarily all of the DR curves but the main ones that determine our DPS such as STR which most have deep into the curve with top quality armor/jewelry or simply add in a few pieces that are more worthwhile such as our set bonuses or proccing items that are class specific.
  11. ARCHIVED-Wargurine Guest

    Igixnasii wrote:
    Why in the world would you say that guards can and should have a dps advantage (since this whole thread has been about dps not holding aggro) over Zerks on single targets(or at all for that matter)? Second, Guards get more than one AE, one blue one, and one green one.

    We have one blue 360 AE, one blue frontal only AE, and one green AE. So we have one frontal AE that a guard doesn't, plus Destruction and OW, but oh wait, guards are gonna have the AA to go down AGI line now without giving anything up, so they get to have almost half of our class defining skill (which they also get to keep 100% of the time unlike our short duration with a reuse) while we get....jack crap. Yep, that sounds fair, sure.


    Brand wrote:
    Pretty sure it could not possible be balanced by treasured and adept 1's, that would be stupid because no one uses that crap (for the most part/for long) once they hit t7 and won't be replacing it.

    I'm sure there might be a larger difference between the two classes then, but other than newly made lvl 70 people (pre 70 doesn't count because you do'nt have all your goodies and tools yet) don't have a LEAST some legendary, and some ad3's/m1's ? As you get these, the gap is pretty small. Once you go up to all m1's and fabled (even kos fabled, not even talking end game fabled) then the gap is really tiny.

    The gap is no where even close to being where it should be. Guards do 200-300 dps less than zerkers with equivelent gear, weapons, and grp set up. 200-300 dps is almost not enough to even count, yet they get a rather large defensive edge over us. Pallies can do almost as much dps as us (with a 2-hdr), plus have heals, wards, and amends, and even a short duration grp amends. Yep thats ballanced. SK's can also do as much dps as any of the plate tanks, and have dmg shields, life taps, even a dmg shield/life tap ward they can put on someone else ot heal that other person! While we have....nothing but dps. So every plate tank out there (not including brawlers because as a leather tank they are a whole diff deal) can do as much or close to as much dps as a zerker can, and yet they have loads more utility and bonuses that we lack. Whats gonna be the point of having zerkers along on raids anymore?

    The idea behind all tanks being equal wasn't every tank being able to dps equally, but being able to tank equally. What should of been done is given other classes pure hate building/minor dps boosts, instead of making them all just hold hate by pure dps, cause now what is unique about a zerker?



    Brand wrote:
    Hi, we have almost the exact same skill, except yours fires off 50% more than ours, and for more hate too. If ours misses, no hate either. So ty for helping to prove my point more, guards should have more skills like this that are better than ours so they hold hate by pure threat, not dps.


    Brand wrote:
    Taunts are far from being useless. Other than straight dps, its the only tool you have to get back aggro from a dps person. How in the world is that useless??

    Zerks should have more than a "slight" dps edge over guards. Guards have a HUGE defensive bonus over Zerks, we should have an appropriately bonus in the dps dept over guards.

    Not really. Guards hold aggro just fine right now, so beyond the standard increases to lvl 80, their taunts shouldn't increase that much unless their dps gets cut back some. The problem is, if they bump Zerks up much more, they will be able to consistently do equal dps as scouts, wich isn't fair at all. So without being able to bump zerk dps much, they need to drop guards back some to make the dps gap noticable and bump the guards taunts.


    ***Edited for typo's and losing half of my post =p ***
  12. ARCHIVED-Jvaloth Guest

    Igixnasii wrote:
    Why in the world would you say that guards can and should have a dps advantage (since this whole thread has been about dps not holding aggro) over Zerks on single targets(or at all for that matter)? Second, Guards get more than one AE, one blue one, and one green one.

    We have one blue 360 AE, one blue frontal only AE, and one green AE. So we have one frontal AE that a guard doesn't, plus Destruction and OW, but oh wait, guards are gonna have the AA to go down AGI line now without giving anything up, so they get to have almost half of our class defining skill (which they also get to keep 100% of the time unlike our short duration with a reuse) while we get....jack crap. Yep, that sounds fair, sure.

    Heh, Bohow... There are TONS of guardians that already are going down the AGI line. YOU will have the extra AA to also take the Agi line and have 40% chance to hit for 2min 35 seconds more than you currently do! WOW! What a concept. Tired of hearing that this ability just cannot be taken because your "class defining " open wounds won't stack...

    Brand wrote:

    The gap is no where even close to being where it should be. Guards do 200-300 dps less than zerkers with equivelent gear, weapons, and grp set up. 200-300 dps is almost not enough to even count, yet they get a rather large defensive edge over us. Pallies can do almost as much dps as us (with a 2-hdr), plus have heals, wards, and amends, and even a short duration grp amends. Yep thats ballanced. SK's can also do as much dps as any of the plate tanks, and have dmg shields, life taps, even a dmg shield/life tap ward they can put on someone else ot heal that other person! While we have....nothing but dps. So every plate tank out there (not including brawlers because as a leather tank they are a whole diff deal) can do as much or close to as much dps as a zerker can, and yet they have loads more utility and bonuses that we lack. Whats gonna be the point of having zerkers along on raids anymore?

    The idea behind all tanks being equal wasn't every tank being able to dps equally, but being able to tank equally. What should of been done is given other classes pure hate building/minor dps boosts, instead of making them all just hold hate by pure dps, cause now what is unique about a zerker?

    Are you serious dude? This set of sentences lost you all credibility. Guardians DO NOT have a rather large defensive edge over Zerkers. We have the same hunker down ability, we have the same group mitigation buff. We have tower of stone and that is it. Our defense buff is raid wide so guardians and zerkers share the same defense.

    Talking about Paladins fighting with a 2hander and you fighting with a buckler (providing defense) isn't a fair analogy. They have heals/wards/amends yadda yadda, you have X y Z abilities. Lets not blur the issue. What is all this class envy going on all of a sudden. Are Zerkers that insecure in their class?? You guys only do 200-300 DPS more than Gaurdians, Paladins, SKs, can tank just as good if not better than the other tanks and you are complaining? I guess its kind of hard going from over powered, uberest tank in the game to MAYBE being on equal footing with some of the other tanks.... All the plate tanks now absorb damage simular, its now about how each class maintains agro and DPS's.
    Zerkers are still kings of the plate DPS and fully capable of MTing any situation + bring better group buffs to a raid... Zerkers are way more versatile than any of the other 3 tanks.


    Brand wrote:
    Hi, we have almost the exact same skill, except yours fires off 50% more than ours, and for more hate too. If ours misses, no hate either. So ty for helping to prove my point more, guards should have more skills like this that are better than ours so they hold hate by pure threat, not dps.

    You have Stunning Howl we have Goading Assault. Stunning Howl does 800 Crush Dmg + stun. We have Goading Assault that is a super slow casting ability that adds 800ish hate! WOW. What are you talking about that fires off 50% more?!?


    Brand wrote:
    Taunts are far from being useless. Other than straight dps, its the only tool you have to get back aggro from a dps person. How in the world is that useless??

    Look what you just typed. So Guardians have 1 single taunt, 1 AE taunt, 1 dmg CA w/ threat and 1 green slow casting AE taunt that does 300 dmg and 800 threat. You have 1 single taunt, 1 AE taunt, 1 dmg CA w/ threat and 1 AE stun that does 500-800 dmg . We have reinforcement, you have insolent gibe. And you do more damage. So we have all the same threat and you do more damage. And we share the same mitigation, same defense, same avoidance. Got it.

    You want it all... and then some.



    Zerks should have more than a "slight" dps edge over guards. Guards have a HUGE defensive bonus over Zerks, we should have an appropriately bonus in the dps dept over guards.

    Guardians do not have a HUGE defense bonus over Zerks. This is your own misguided view of the situation and perception of guardians. The one "defensive" buff we have is cross raid so we guardians are SHARING own HUGE defense WITH YOU!

    Not really. Guards hold aggro just fine right now, so beyond the standard increases to lvl 80, their taunts shouldn't increase that much unless their dps gets cut back some. The problem is, if they bump Zerks up much more, they will be able to consistently do equal dps as scouts, wich isn't fair at all. So without being able to bump zerk dps much, they need to drop guards back some to make the dps gap noticable and bump the guards taunts.


    Ah so you want to tank as good as a guardian but you want your DPS to go up so you can hold agro.. and Guardian DPS to go down so you can feel good about yourself... and instead just increase Guardian taunt abilities?

    And after you've reduced the disparity between the two classes to your liking, what next? You going to complain that we have Reinforcement and beg for that too? Classic.
  13. ARCHIVED-Wargurine Guest

    Jvaloth wrote:

    Yes there are, notice I said without trading off for another line, so now you get your cake and eat it too. You should also READ my posts and see where it has been explained that Hi, this is only usefull maybe 5% of the time (in current content, maybe RoK will have more 3+ mob raid pulls) and the other 95% of the time OW is up anyways. So deal with hearing it, I aint spending a ton of AA to only use them 5% of the time, and I don't know ANYONE else that would either.


    Jvaloth wrote:

    Oh wait, we are comparing how we tank while raid buffed now? This is about what each class has on its own, not what each class has raid buffed. So yes, you have a very nice defensive buff we don't, in addition to a hp/sta buff, that again, we don't have. You also have stone sphere, and wow, you have your own short duration stoneskin proc buff. then there is tower of stone, and if you want it block. gee golly, that sure looks like more than one.


    Jvaloth wrote:

    Hmm, ok, where to start. How is comparing the two best dps set ups for two diff classes (since two diff classes obviously dps diff) isn't fair? Ok, so now they have to compare their dps to ours when using a buckler instead of their optimal AA/gear set up? thats ********.

    I don't have class envy, I was mearly pointing out that every plate tank has comparable dps to a zerker, and more utility. Heck, even all the raid wide buffs each of those classes gives is better than some crappy hp regen. And our grp buffs? haste and dps are so easy to cap, that they are very minimal gains, and even the buff we give is small, less than 30. So I guess you mean our str buff? Yeah, thats nice, I will give you that one, but oh wait, a guard could give you melee skills buff (arguably better than str depending on gear, adorns, etc), and more hp's to live through the AE's or accidental rips. Ok, not saying one is better or worse, just saying that zerkers don't have the "best"

    My whole point there was that everyone does the same dps, but has imo, more utility to bring to the table.


    Jvaloth wrote:

    I thought he was talking about the reactive hate proc. Guards fires 50%, ours fires 25%, and like I said, imo thats how it should be. And for the record, stunning howl casts just as slow as your green ae.



    Jvaloth wrote:

    So uh, I said that taunts aren't useless, ok, so I am wrong, but you talk about all the taunts....riiight. And you can't compare insolent gibe and reinforcement. At all. Gibe gives me a whopping 1k hate, ooh, guess what, if the wizzie fusions, IG won't get it off of him, reinforcement though, will, and give you a nice gain over his current hate too. IG's only usefull if the mob is currently and keeps hitting me to have a chance (note a chance not a guarentee) to proc the reactive hate. I love IG, and I wouldn't trade it for reinforcement, but its use isn't even remotely the same. Oh, and btw, with your full EoF set (not that there isn't better gear to use, or that the 9 piece effect is worth using but its there) you can gain more mit that us.


    Jvaloth wrote:

    covered this already, but just wanted to state that I don't have a misguided view. I betrayed to a guard for a few good solid months because the guild I was in at the time was blind and didn't believe that a zerk could MT. So I have seen, and used, each and every ability a guard has (still confused as to how more hp isn't a defensive buff).


    Jvaloth wrote:

    I never said I wanted to tank as good as a guardian. Way to not read all the way through my posts and comprehend what I have said. Everything I have stated, has been aimed towards the same point. That guards where supposed to be the dps tank, specially in AE situations, and that isn't really true anymore, and when RoK comes out will be even more messed up without some serious tweaking.

    I seriously hope that one day you learn to read and comprehend what it is you just read one day.
  14. ARCHIVED-ZhouyuTheGreat Guest

    Just to clear up soemthing quick, someone here said I'm a guardian, I am not. In fact I am a berserk I just tend to disagree with the majority on the topic. Berserker is not being nerfed, and it is not not falling behind guardians in any shape or form. Guardians are slightly ..and I mean very slightly getting a boost with the extra AA points but NOTHING to turn the advantage upside down.
    Simply maybe I play different than other zerkers, but there is no way in hell a guardian can out dps a zerker on a single target mob, unless A) the zerker is horribly played or B) the zerker is afking tanking (which we really can do, at times i can hold aggro with just auto attack )
    People here mentioning how useless OW/destruction is because it has a reuse timer on it, and how great guardian sphere and tower of stones are. All this talk is due to the fact we have berserkers that have never played a guardian class before making assumptions based on what they read in spell description. I have played both classes and been raid tank as both so I have a better understanding of how both classes fair on raids as MTs.
    Guardian sphere, sure it sounds really nice, but lets take MMIS and FTH for example.Those 2 zones are so easy until you reach certain points, FTH tryeloth and MMIS mayong. I mean when I tank mmis i juggernaut on names and still hardly take much damage. So this proves guardian sphere is not needed really, because the extra defence is not required, in fact the extra dps/aggro is more of importance in these fights so your raid can go all out without the fear of MT losing aggro. Now once yo ureach mayong or Tryeloth and the kind is where guardian sphere could be helpful ....but what kind of a guardian would ever think about intercepting damage for groupmates in those fights that AEs are so common ? the MT could get one shotted. So guardian sphere isn'ty nearly as great as some of the zerkers here are making it sound like, its useful in one v one duels or one v one pvp fights but thats about it. Hardly any use on raids.
    Now on to tower of stones, nice ability, it can save a tank from wipe, however the ability has a cool down timer of 3min (defult) and it has about 1second casting time. Usually in fights if your tank is taking so much damage, that you require tower of stoens to stay alive, trust me, you clock 3 then the MT floors, means healers arent doign their job. Usually by the time you realzie healers are slacking and you areat 5% by the time you hit your tower of stones macro to switch shields and cast it, you are either dead or healed back up. Tower of stoens can only come in handy in fights that a boss has a timed special ability, that you need to block ..well say you block it the first time ..what are you gonna next time it hits ? tower of stones will be out of commission. So you still have to figure out a way to deal with it without tower of stones. Tower of stones is also sometiems used on pulls, but it is not required, I as a zerker I have never had a problem on spike damage on pulls, if I need to i can boost my avidance to 11.9k and i hardly take any damage. So although tower of stones looks and soudns so cool on paper in reality is not as effective as some make it sound like. Lets not forget zerker get gut roar which is basiclly one block ability so if there is a AE yo uwould liek to time once, you can do it ,and recast is only 60 seconds default.
    So as you see, its not as effective as some people here like to make it look like. I suggest berserks play a guardian class before making assumptions. Someone here mentioned "well what does a zerker do when OW/destruction is out? who wants to wait out with their thumb in their *** for the CAs to refresh ?" Well you use gibe+juggernaunt for next pull and by the 3rd encounter OW/destruction is back up if you have spent your AA properly.
    I'm not gonna sit here and share all the little tricks and tactics I use, people have to quit whinning all the time and try to learn their class better and stop thinking that the grass is greener on the other side.
    Note that this point is just my opinion and based on my personal experiance with both classes.
  15. ARCHIVED-Wargurine Guest

    I've tanked raids as both a guard and a zerk (have mentioned that already). Stone Sphere is very usefull on raids, but like every other short duration ability, its situational. If your guild is timing AE (duh) then you obviously don't use it right before an AE. And I never said even once that any of these abilities are the omg your a god now type of things, but they ARE there and ARE available to be used.

    I've also never said that OW/Des was useless because of the reuse. All I stated was that in a small amount of pulls, it might not be up and thats where guards will creep in. Its not about the grass is greener on the other side (notice I've betrayed to guard, hated it, and betrayed back) but that guards are creeping in on our turf, and are getting a lot of bonuses while zerks aren't getting jack dps wise, taking away the only real advantage a zerker has. That was the whole point of this entire post that Kemt started, and its getting totally de-railed into who's the better tank. I don't care who holds aggro better or how (ok I do but I think it should be done in diff ways to keep some flavor between the classes) instead of just all dps.
  16. ARCHIVED-Jvaloth Guest

    Bohow@Antonia Bayle wrote:
  17. ARCHIVED-Epyx Guest

    RE-Read Stone Sphere, you then see why it's one spell that separates regular tanks from Guardians

    Re-Read the entire description of ToS You'll see why the limitations are really bonus'

    Remember Dragoon's is on a 3min timer, 2x as long as ToS, Longer than SS, And is Melee based, and penalized, Your just autoattacking, taunting and auto parrying but to parry a tail lash...

    Block is great, a block is still a block, the limitations really do not inhibit anyone. You can still taunt, your still attacking And it's a fast refresh.

    I've tanked and killed every Avatar in game, b/c i ahknowledge these Guardian only spells/abilities(dragoon's is shared) thier weakness' and thier inherent strengths from their weakness'

    You are severly underestimating the abilities these spells/ca's have. i am not in the zerker v guard debate, but in a word these listed spells, are pretty awesome.
  18. ARCHIVED-Aurtorius Guest

    Jvaloth wrote:
    - Stone Sphere AND Tower of Stone are both self stoneskin buffs. Stone Sphere is more situational so you don't kill yourself, but ANY guard with an ounce of skill can use it to its fullest.

    - Berserkers do have the best offense I'll give you that.. by MAYBE 300-400, if you're being generous. How much do we sacrifice to get those numbers though? I for one don't have the two single heals, group heal, ward of a Paladin, not to mention amends for the maintained aggro control. Also my Paladin can do his high dps while wielding sword and board, so where's the major defensive reduction for him?

    As for comparing us to guards.. their offense is close, will be even closer with RoK.. and you say its fair even though we don't have TWO stoneskins, a moderate, a 2nd ability to help absorb the hit of another, a 2nd intercede/death prevention single target type spell(sentinel watch i believe, will read over description again later), a health buff, a sta buff, a defensive buff that stacks with our stance, a +skills buff to help with aggro while in defensive, better debuffs, AND Reinforcements to lock aggro on yourself without the worry of HAVING to put out top dps to keep it, like us.

    - Utility/Buffage .. um yeah... like everyone has posted already, that which is insanely obvious to most of us... our haste/dps mod buffs have slowly been and will finally be rendered useless with the expansion. Everyone can cap one if not both of those with the curve.. so our class defining skills will be just another waste of concentration. Group health regen? excuse me while I leave the room laughing. Group str buff? [I cannot control my vocabulary] its great, love my STR... oh wait once you hit 600 in a stat self buffed you're pretty much done. Let me think, oh yeah i was at 600 self back when i was in treasured gear... another buff rendered useless to the curve.

    Nobody is asking that we get your defense or tanking skills along with top dps.. all we want is the berserker class to be what it was supposed to be. Our offense as good in comparison to your defense, you hold aggro and tank your way, we do it ours.
  19. ARCHIVED-Wargurine Guest

    Jvaloth wrote:

    I couldn't care less about heroic content either, and have been talking about raid performance all along. You claim to read what I write but fall through the "holes" but none of your replies really deal with the over lying issue, you just pick parts of what I say to disagree with and don't really think it through. This whole dang thread has been about comparing what each class has ON ITS OWN not what other classes can give to it. So I don't care if I can "share" your defensive buff, its not relevant to the matter at hand, because you have to be in the raid, and ALIVE for it to even matter, and since most of us are OT's not MT's (notice I aint trying to make zerks better tanks and take over as MT's for the whole game) we aren't tanking till after your dead, so we in fact DON'T get to share your defensive buff, thanks though, try again.

    I have read stone sphere, but you obviously haven't. Go read it again, it says that when YOU take dmg, you have a chance to proc stone skin, not when your grp member takes dmg. HELLOOOOO, thats a self stoneskin buff, way to know your class.

    Agi finisher is crap, it stifles you, has a 30 min reuse, and is oh, crap. Not suprised that you didn't know about that part of the ability though, since you don't even know how your own class abilities work.

    ToS is not crap, is extremely handy, and you don't even have to use it because your about to die. You can use it to give your healers time to top off thier own grps/out of group healing for the rest of the raid. Holy crap, thats pretty handy to use to keep your raid alive.

    Or how about sentry watch for the mobs that spawn adds that will usually run right for your healers? you can take some of that negligible dmg (to you) that would normally kill them, and give them a chance to live. Or your grp wide short duration one (forgot the name) that heals them if they are gonna die.

    You shouldn't even be here posting because you don't even know how your own abilities work, its really sad.
    Jvaloth wrote:

    Health regen is a complete and utter joke, and the dev's should be ashamed to have made that our raid wide buff. I mean seriously, its utterly worthless because the hp regen cap is so dang easy to hit anyways, specially with a druid in your grp. Grp/self zerk buffs are also becoming useless as well. With good gear (doesn't even have to be the best gear) your waaaay past the point in the diminishing returns curve for 28ish dps/haste to mean jack.

    I even stated that I liked the str buff, but you had to mention it again like I said I didn't like it?? [I cannot control my vocabulary] are you on when you write this stuff?

    Again you mention that I am asking for the best tanking, best utility, and best dps. I have stated many MANY times that that isn't what I want at all. Way to no freaking read what I (and every other zerker here) have been saying. ALL WE WANT IS TOP DPS THAT IS COMPARABLE TO YOUR TOP TANKING ABILITIES (highlighted so you might be able to read it this time).


    Jvaloth wrote:

    Your right there, no argument. But I am gonna use your own statement against you. Mits worthless, and the gains of going all out for it are minimal and will actually hamper you because you will give up more important things to get it. Its just like what would be happening if zerkers wasted thier AA in the agi tree. We would get even more of a minimal gain than we will be getting anyways, and losing out the slightly better route of going all the way down int line.

    So its ok for you to stop chasing mit because its a waste of time, but you expect us to chase down the agi line even though its a waste of our time? Way to have a double standard.

    Jvaloth wrote:

    I would say I won't bother to argue with you anymore, since you don't even know how your own skills/class work, but I can't just sit by and watch some [I cannot control my vocabulary] post blatantly wrong information (notice I aint the first reply to your post saying your wrong). I don't expect to change your small mind because that isn't possible, but I will at least (hopefully) prevent your warped views from corrupting anyonelse.

    And I aint on some crusage to get guards nerfed. My only goal is to have zerkers brought back up to where we should be, instead of increasingly pushed towards the back burner.
  20. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    For the people who have reading comprehension disabilities, this isn't about raids, this is about the DPS curve that is suppose to exsist vs survivability.
    At the current time, Guards are doing roughly the same DPS as a Zerker while reaping alot more survivability traits, the difference in DPS is minimal at best to the point of being 2-3% difference. Their survivability is what makes them more desired seeing they can do close to the same amount of DPS anyway with the same spec as a Zerker, as they share the same tree.
    One of the issues is not skill sets at all but fall to diminishing returns on Haste / DPS mods which at this point in time we can all (Guards, Zerkers, Pallies, SK's, Monks and Bruisers) get to 150+ which nets a very minimal return at best, if anything that would remotely effect our DPS.
    The curve obviously increases in RoK with the level 80 cap, but we are way over the curve at this point due to items and buffs being so easily obtainable.
    This whole problem results in one thing for Berserkers. Berserk, the defining skill of a *Berserker* is left useless because of this issue and the diminishing returns on Haste / DPS mods and is why we are asking for something extra to be added to Berserk itself, nothing more. 10% chance to double attack while Berserk? I don't think it is unreasonable to be honest and will most likely put us back where we are suppose to be, 20% more damage ahead of a Guardian.

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