Berserker/Guardian CA Comparison

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Dimglow, Nov 1, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    you do understand that if zerkers get the agi line, it is useless to them? Or do you not understand open wounds?
  2. ARCHIVED-Raahl Guest

    Skel@Butcherblock wrote:
    Please enlighten me. I know nothing about Open Wounds. :D
    Does this supercede any other chance to proc a AE attack?
  3. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    Yes, it doesnt stack and it is THE class defining skill for a zerker.


    We litterally have one other good spell over a guandian besides this and lack so much utility. With your ability to pick up something close to what we have but us only able to go deeper into trees that do very very little for us its no wonder why people like me betrayed. Guard DPS is already so close to zerkers, this draws the gap even closer.
  4. ARCHIVED-Oldlore Guest

    "No % spells (including our beserk proc buffs) will receive upgrades and Open Wounds, Juggernaut and VoM are as good with 70 as they are with 80."

    Does this mean that our self and grp berserk procs really aren't being upgraded? Usually every 14 lvls the +dps/haste component increases, although the proc % may stay the same. That'd be a huge disappointment as well as unexpected.
  5. ARCHIVED-Raahl Guest

    So Open Wounds makes your auto attack into an AE attack. But this wouldn't stop your auto attack, AE or not, from proc'ing another AE from the AGI line, would it? Unless there is some mechanic I am missing you should still get he proc from the AGI line.
    Maybe I'm just missing something.
  6. ARCHIVED-InsaneChaosMarine Guest

    Enless they changed something, cap for AE Autoattack is 100%.
  7. ARCHIVED-Hardain Guest

    When OW is on, AE autoattck from AGI line servers absolutely no purprose, since they don't stack, and there is really no way they even could stack. And with OW enchantment from EoF tree, OW is up in allmost every encouter fight.
  8. ARCHIVED-Raahl Guest

    Ah! I misread it. I thought it just converted all your auto attack to AE attacks not 100% proc AE with each auto attack.
    Nice ability! Is there anything in the zerker AA lines to reduce the timer on it?
  9. ARCHIVED-Hardain Guest

    If you read my post you would know it. To be precise, the recats is reduced by 5 sec each rank, making it 2m 35 sec recast, and less if you have other reuse timer fasteners.
  10. ARCHIVED-ZhouyuTheGreat Guest

    I still think zerkers are freaking out a little too early. All over a extra 40% AE chance a guardian's auto attack damage is gonna have once they get the extra 20 points. Who cares about the 40% chance for a frontal cone only AE ? Thats not where our aggro management comes from, a guardian has a CHANCE for their weapon to AE, while a zerker with OW has a 100% chance. Holding aggro comes with the snap aggro you can hold, so that your bully defence and your hate proc items can start to proc while keeping every mob by yourself so you can AE them much better.
    Now guarduan still wont be able to hold aggro with only 40% chance, itsa slight boost to their dps ..a little ...but nothing to assure them that snap AE aggro. On paper it looks like guardians are god, in reality its not like that. You people keep saying guardian CAs are better, you forgetting how awsome zerker CAs are. I think people need to stop freaking out now and just wait for t8, if you don't like zerkers in the new expansion pack you can always betray and go guardian.
    However this whole agility line topic is getting a little out of hand. If a guardian wanted to catch up with zerkers, they have ways to go yet and 40% extra AE chance aint gonna help them that much.
  11. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    ZhouyuTheGreat wrote:
    You Guardians still don't realise it, ethier you do, or are just playing this off as it won't be so bad.
    The reason people use the comparison between Open Wounds and AGI line is because OW is a 2 min 35 second timer with a 100% chance to proc primary weapon dmg on 4 targets, now the AGI line is a consistant 40%, there is no timer, so technically, when you count in the timer, Zerkers already have a 40% chance also, just burst, not consistant.
    Personally I think that the CA damage increase modifier in Guardian EoF tree should of been a Zerker skill and the AoE damage increase modifier should of went to Guardians, hell even if they gave them 25% increase to taunts to make up for the lose in damage would of been enough.
    At the end of all this, you do realize that the AGI line 40% proc chance is making a massive difference, especially on group mobs, take a look at Chirat, Greatblade of Truth, or the 2 Hander of Wuoshi, our guilds Pallies are parsing well over 2500 on group fights with these weapons and there 40% chance to proc primary weapon damage line.
    This isn't just about Guardians, they are not the only ones to have access to this 40% auto attack AoE line, Pallies and SK's both share the Warrior tree. Zerkers are now being matched by pure tank classes who were never designed to be the DPS of the tank line up and if they can parse the same as us now, what makes you think that it is going to change in RoK.
  12. ARCHIVED-khrunk Guest

    to make things more even i propose a trade, guards will trade moderate; the sweet one person dehate buff, call of armament; our raidwide uber defensive buff, and tower of stone; the ulmighty use me and i kill your tower shield buff that i rarely if ever use for the zerker abilities destruction, juggernaut, and open wounds. since those skills seem to equal each other in the posts i have read, nobody should have an issue with that eh? that way both our classes blow chunks.
    not trying to make light of what you guys believe is a major imbalance, but seriously the only thing you got screwed on is reinforcement and the stonesphere thing and the auto taunt buff we guards get. and i really wouldnt call the auto taunt buff a real great advantage cause you have to get hit for it work and it can get resisted. the mob cant resist the damage done by your auto taunt/damage ability.

    my one question i have is the dps that is said that guards and zerkers are equal or very close to almost undistinguisable. is this comparing a zerker mt and guard mt with same gear, same level spells, same group setup, and same weapons, and same aa builds?
  13. ARCHIVED-Dimglow Guest

    Whoa whoa whoa. BERSERK is NOT upgrading in RoK? Are you KIDDING me? The -SINGLE- largest class defining ability that we are NAMED after is NOT upgrading in RoK?

    What's next? Healers not getting heal upgrades?

    Now, don't get me wrong, I understand that it gives a "percent" bonus. But what the heck? It should at the very least improve so that we can make up for all the combat skills and defense skills we're missing from our class by using less dps/haste gear. Unbelievable. DPS/Haste gear/adornments will likely continue to grow so berserk will be worth less and less as characters mature into RoK.

    Realistically it should begin offering other offensive bonuses if it isn't going to give more haste/dps, such as double attack critical hits, or increase combat art/spell damage or something.

    I've heard some mixed things about RoK but I have to say that being told Berserk isn't being upgraded is the single largest disappointment to me so far. Berserk's offensive bonus to the group was the primary reason I rolled this class over playing a Paladin, I wanted to provide nice group buffs. Now Paladins have an -awesome- group skills buff, a near open-wounds skill, and fantastic AoE capability rivaling our own. Sure they don't touch us single-target, but they can heal. Oh well, excuse that, bit of a personal rant. (Also goes to show you not everyone has Guardian envy I guess.) I'm almost going to wish I could betray to Paladin if Berserkers are really getting shafted as hard as it sounds.
  14. ARCHIVED-Wargurine Guest

    ZhouyuTheGreat wrote:
    A little? Try a lot. Take the 5 pull in FTH for instance. Our guards spec'd down agi right now, and is NOT (emphasis on the not for the people with reading disabilities) buckler spec'd, but can still pull 2.5k on that fight. I (with a grp of inq, dirge, assassin, and fury for buffs) do 3.6k. Ok, so I beat him by 1.1k, with all my burns running, but oh, I got more dps buffs, my dirge is playing dps songs instead of MT songs, and I am using a better dps weapon. Now we go to the next 5 pull fight while my stuff is down, and he still does 2.5k (since his AE auto attack is permenant) while I managed to pull out 2.8 because all my good stuff is down (who wants to sit around with thier thumb up thier kiester for almost 3 mins waiting for spells to refresh). Oh crap, he almost did the same as me, and this is before RoK comes out. Once it does, he could go buckler spec'd on top of what he has now, and will parse just as high on the first one (OW runs out before all the mobs die) then totally beats me on the next one since mine won't be up. Yeah, that sounds great. Sure, I could spec down it, then I got 20 AA that are only usefull when there are back to back big AE pulls. Great, the other 90% of the time they will be a complete waste. But hey, it won't help them much... And during those big pulls btw, our casters pull 5k+ and don't rip aggro from him, but again, it doesn't help him hold aggro much... I am SO glad you aren't our Dev, or maybe you are and thats where our problem lies.

    Raahl wrote:
    Yes, OW does increase haste, however, I run at 180-195 haste every fight, because haste and dps mod are so easy to get, doesn't help.

    Avoidance isn't useless at all against epic mobs. Avoidance is way more important than mitigation. Monks/Bruisers have a hard time not because avoidance doesn't work, its because they don't have as much of an avoidance boost over us, that we do them with mitigation. And with thier lower mit, once they get hit, it hurts bad while we can soak it up better. Read more threads in this forum than just the ones with Guard in the title (specially Skel's, he's beat this topic to death) and you would already know this.

    Parses have been shown between similarly equipped zerkers and guards, in both MT and dps roles and the dps difference right now is very low 300-500 maybe in the higher end guilds/gear. Once RoK comes out, and guards can start encroaching on our class defining abilities, that gap will narrow even more, if not tilt into the guards favor.
  15. ARCHIVED-Hardain Guest

    Kemt@Venekor wrote:
    No need to worry, Kemt
  16. ARCHIVED-Raahl Guest

    BTW the 2-2.5 minutes that Open Wounds is not up, the AGI line will benefit a zerker. Yea it benefit's you a little less than a guardian, but none the less a benefit.
    Either way I wish the zerkers luck at getting some love from Sony. I just pray that your efforts don't cause Guardians to get nerfed.
  17. ARCHIVED-Dimglow Guest

    Hardain@Runnyeye wrote:
    Thank goodness. Would've been really disappointed if our offensive bonus went entirely to being Roar and a slowly weakening berserk.
  18. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    Kemt@Venekor wrote:
    My mistake, I matched the spell list someone (accidently) posted a while ago wrong.
  19. ARCHIVED-Wargurine Guest

    Raahl wrote:
    Your right they will, HOWEVER, as I stated before, they are only a benefit to us if there happens to be a large encounter pull back to back, and those are few and far between. So the entire rest of the time, they are a total waste. Sorry, I don't spend my AA to that they are usefull 5% of the time.
  20. ARCHIVED-Igixnasii Guest

    While I agree that single target zerkers lose out to guards, the advantage against multiple targets still applies. The straight up comparison to the guards abilities only take into account the advantage they have vs single point targets as only one AE is listed (since that's all the guards get).

    Zerkers have 2 AE's and an encounter attack, plus a frontal attack and an encounter damage proc, combined with the AE damage proc on the offensive stance (all the guards get is a str bonus which is fairly useless vs the cap).

    Most raid bosses are single point targets or carry little advantage to having the heavier encounter or AE hate bonuses the zerker generates. This point of contention would definately be valid and we will hopefully see more encounter type raid bosses where the zerker would get an advantage over the guardian in hate generation.

    Zerkers also have two deathsaves which when combined are extremely effective.

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