Berserker class needs a lot of work - Plea for help.

Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote:

Easy....the ability is only 'on' when your position is as the top of the mob's hate list as a zerk. If you're the MT, that should be the case the majority of the time anyway. Exactly how would this be any more difficult to code than other conditional effects that already exist in the game? There's several different classes including our own that have effects that kick in 'if under X% of health' for example. I think you vastly underestimate what's possible here.....this would be no problem to implement if they so chose.

- Offensivie MT response ==>It easy to determine if you are taking Melee damage (thus tanking). This is how our Provoking Defense works. It does damage and a taunt when you get hit.
Do not go asking for nerfs on other classes. The reason for the Guardian's DPS is generally due to MTing. The MT has many extra buffs due to the other members of the raid casting on him. I know this, because when I MT my DPS drastically increases. Also realize, when you are MTing, you generally do not have to joust the MOB's AEs. You are consistently hitting the mob vs the rest of the raid. There is nothing wrong with a Guardian coming close to a Zerkers DPS, on single Mobs. We still have better DPS on multiples, and they get better defense. They have better snap aggro too. They need those abilities to tank successfully within ROK (tier 2+). Here is where I draw the line though. We need much of the same abilities to tank them too.
The Zerker needs better survivability (defensive spells), or possibly spells to last full duration /hint adrenaline.
The Zerker needs better Snap aggro. Once we loose agro, its harder for us to snap it back.
The mythical needs to be revamped to drop the AE or hate regen, and give us a reposte percentage to make up for defense (same percent difference between the buckler and tower). Reposte also gives some dps and defense for those who wish to Duel Wield and tank in group instances. It also gives us some defense and some dps for those of us who wish to Tank in Raid Instances.

Fiercemind wrote:

Believe me I hated to do it. Quite literally every class I play in every MMORPG from CoH to this has been the victim of nerfing. However in the end I tend to be practical and logical. I looked at the issue like this, please tell me if the logic is false. But even when the Zerk is in the MT role they aren't doing much more damage than a Guardian and that was supposed to be the point. The same goes for classes whose purpose is suppose to be dps. Yes Provoking defense and other things do dps BUT that is a means to an end, maintaining aggro. The dps classes should still be outclassing Guardians and they are not. Your missing my point I think in that I am NOT only talking about fixing Zerkers, but the over all game balance, as noted above. I used the following logic, and it basically works for any of the class families that have an over powered class or two with in them.
A) Class A was developed for "this" specific purpose (MT in this example)
B) Class A manner of accomplishing this task was "this" (high survivability and holding agrro not doing damage in this example)
C) The "dps" heavy classes in the group are there to kill the mob
D) The dps classes in order to have equal viability need to clearly do more dps than the MT
E) most dps classes are now not clearly doing more dps that the MT, in fact in some cases the dps class even when played well is being out parsed by the main tank (even if its only by a couple hundred).
Now clearly point E was never the way it was supposed to be, heck it was never that way before so we have two options. Fix the zerker, and put the Monk, Bruiser, arguably the Ranger and a caster or two in a deeper hole (because now there are 2 MTs that are parsing where they should be), until they get around to fixing them. The rate of fixing classess and bringing them up to where they should be seems to be 7-12 months at this point. So we would be looking at 28 months to 4 years before balance is regained across the board through that method. Or we can do a small nerf on the Guardian. It wouldn't take much, they already had no problem nerfing one epic, a little nerf on the Guardian epic would help along with a modification on their EoF tree and maybe a CA or two. Its a lot easier to regain game balance that way and it doesn't cause the cascade of making certain classes less and less relevant until they get "fixed"
Your plan would make perfect sense if Zerkers were the only ones effected by the state of the Guardian class, but Zerkers are far from the only ones effected by this issue and if we want to make certain (as much as we can) that Zerkers don't find themselves in what the devs see as a nerfable position again, then we have to be VERY cautious about asking for more, when perhaps the real answer is to ask for someone to have less.
Believe me I would love for the zerk to get more. And the epic does need a change or two, especially to the AoE stuff, due to how Kunark is set up (unless they fix Kunark which is the actual problem, not the Epic so much, the Epic would be fine if Kunark was an EoF style Land). But it just doesn't seem logical looking at all of the classes with issues. BTW I only play a Zerker and a Ranger at this point, so I am NOT by any stretch pulling for another class I play, I was just trying to be logical here.

Fix adrenaline.
Sorry had to bump it and I'm frustrated because I used adrenaline last night and sure as **** my berserk dropped and I ate the floor.

I just don't like the idea of any class getting nerfed. Those skills are needed to finish the end game.
As for the Guardian's DPS being high, I'm sure they are because they are MTing. When I (Beserker) MT for my guild, my dps is increased almost 40 percent. I often have a dirge and an assassin in my group (mostly for hate transfer), but their buffs really help crank out the dps for me. The DPS boost = aggro, which is needed for any tank.
The other night I wasn't feeling well, so asked to be placed in our DPS Melee Group (bypassing our 2ndary tank group). My DPS dropped quite a bit. I'm sure it was due to having to Joust the AEs, and not having the Assassin's and Dirges DPS Buffs. I can't remember if I had an illusionist or a coercer that night, but my dps was signifcally lower.
Have a Guardian tank a mob (solo - non heroic), and you will see how low their dps really is.

Epic Idea number 2 is absolutely what needs to be done. I'm sorry but a GUARDian has no right to pull the same numbers as a berserker. That's horseshit. That was the whole appeal of the class from day 1. Guardians > Tanks. Berserkers > DPS. Right now that really isn't the case. Thanks for giving them all the utility and us next to none. Don't nerf them. Fix us. And start by going through our worthless EoF AAs and adding + damage modifiers, changing our buffs to not completely suck, and fixing our joke of an epic to be worthwhile in ALL situations, not the one or two fights that aoe mobs happen this encounter. 95% of the guilds out there or more aren't taking shots at avatars right now, and frankly out of those that do, even fewer are using berserker off tanks anymore because you all killed the class.

Offense Scale should go like this
Guardian - 3-4
Berserker - 8

a good zerker can still be one of if not the best offtank and we have the buffs for the role, all you have to do is prove your worth for that position even how crappy that may sound...

BTW guys... I changed my forum handle... This is Nembutal... I don't play the toon named nebutal since the first week I signed up... so people calling me Nembutal never really "clicked" I'm Skoshi in game and on here now as well.

Anyway.. I posted a thread about the VP armor and updated the initial post on here also to reference it... I think these 2 issues need to go hand in hand... you CAN NOT balance a class using gear... you just can't...

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...62&#4604323

New set is cool... I like some of it a lot and would suit the role I think I could be pegged into in scout group... except for one glaring flaw... it's short term... and because of the bonuses on the gear these are thing that are no longer options to do to our class as a whole. They need to pull some of this stuff off the gear... slap it into our "base-naked-zerker" class and then pick some new effects that help us hold aggro to more closely math what guardians got.

The effort they put forth was nice... they used some dev brain power... but it's just not permanent enough to be a "fix" and it still doesn't make us awesome tanks... it just makes us better for DPS and utility... I'll gladly take that at this point... but as part of our class... not as my gear.

our defensive ability was the 20% reduction in power to adrenaline, but no zerk is going to wear the full set EVER when there is still much better pieces of armor in T1 and instances, not to mention that still isn't even close to a [I cannot control my vocabulary] fix for adrenaline- these little tiny pokes at tweaks aren't even in the ballpark for the tweaks some of our abilities need...
they are so out of it that they probably think the bonus to slashing on that set is our fix for melee hit rate in VP.... lol!

I wish you guys the best. I finally betrayed.
I loved the zerk class, and would have remained so, if I were not the MT for my Guild.
If SOE, improves snap agro, and fixes adrenenline to last the full duration I may return, but for now I must do what's best for my guild.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, and even post in support for the zerk.
Take care,
Ruffntuff (ex Zerker)

p.s. For all those zerkers not raiding in the end raid content, stay a beserker is my advice. It rules for soloing and normal grouping.

Sorry to hear that dude and I hope the switch works out for you.
Oh woohoo they changed the VP set that'll fix us!!! Ok now that I got that outta my system... Did they really think those changes would help all of us? How does that help those of us who aren't raiding VP yet? Even then while the VP set is nice there is other gear out there that's just as good or better.

They didn't think... that's the issue.... they were doing a revamp of all of the gear bonuses... and thought "ok we will fix them using this" but it's just simply not a logical conclusion to fix gear most of us will never have and that will eventually be in the trash.

I appreciate the effort though... it could be that they didn't have time to do it right and didn't think it was important enough to do it right... but I think they DID listen to us to some very minor extent or someone who has a dev bud may have personally talked to them... but those fixes were pretty damn good... just placed into the game in the wrong manner.

The end result of the guardian set being so much better for aggro though because they had to focus on fixing so many of our other flaws really ended up making it look "eh... well it's nice but guardians are still light years ahead for MT"

It's all just about moving some of those changes into us as a class... and putting some aggro tools onto the armor in their place.

Unfortunatly the zerk class for end game raid is useless and its utility is close to none. There is no real advantage and therfore no reason to have a zerk in a raid when guards can do same DPS and have much better tanking abilities. The zerk role is completly lost. Zerks need a long overdue boost and they need it now!

GuardianCall to Arms line now includes ranged skill.

wow, make me feel even more useless. Are we completely hated or what? Or did we become so "uber" somewhere back that the only fix they have put in for us in over a year is the kill adrenaline. Made me feel really great when I looted the M1 version the day before that update.
The revamp on the gear would be great if they changed the corresponding bonuese on the individual pieces to make them viable over wearing comparable/better gear from lower Tiers.
Want to really make me feel better? Increase the mitiagation over the Guardian pieces, like you did for them over us with our relic gear. That would make me feel about 1.3% better.Responding anywhere to this, or the other posts on here and eq2flames, might push that closer to 20%.

Kannabis wrote:

i still have to disagree with this, don't get me wrong i still feel we are a hugely neglected class but we still offer more to the raid as an OT than another guardian in severeal aspects but our survivability still does need some work.
it gives me pleasure when i can do a job as well or better than a guardian in an OT role and still offer up some extra DPS for the melee in my group, our mythical helps with this role. what i don't like is how much we have been crapped on and dumbed down as candidates for a main tanking position though, guardians obviously have that spot on lockdown now.

After reading this thread, I fail to see a huge disparity between guardians/zerks. It is true that the guardian epic is a littly over powered, but zerkers are essentially 'encounter' tanks and still excel at tanking multiple mobs at once. Also, I think MT parses are deceptive. There are so many buffs from others that make the MT look good. Put a guard with the same gear with a zerk in the dps group and I assure you the zerk will parse higher.
What is really at issue is the lack of encounter epic mobs in Rok. A lot of Avatar fights still have waves of mobs... exp. it would be hard to do Flame without a zerk... Most encounters are single target, thus the guardians will shine. I don't think they should retool the warriors, but rather introduce more group encounters where you need a zerker. A modest boost to dps of 5-10% would be reasonable.
Anyhow I think the zerker problems pale in comparison to Coercers, SKs, Bruisers etc as it relates to raiding. You need a little tuning but you are far from broken.
Vixn
80 Coercer Befallen 140AA
(80 Fury, 72 Guardian Alt)

cxp1 wrote:

i guess you gotta play one to understand the differences, most raiding guilds do not even allow zerks on as offtanks anymore because paladins have the same if not superior add control since if they are stunned/stifled/rooted they can still hold aggro without lifting a finger. what do we have? we have mobs running in every freaking direction while we pull our hair out in disgust...

/agree with the statement above.............especially for the Over King

cxp1 wrote:

Why am I not surprised that this person plays a guardian and not a zerk. Not only that but their guard isn't 80 and not a main so they aren't hitting raids with it every week like most of us. You would actually have to raid with a berserker to see the issues we are talking about. Hell, there are others who have posted saying they see the issues and don't play either class.
Get that guardian alt to 80, betray him to a berserker and go try to tank any raids past T2 and come back and let us know how you feel.

it's all a matter of perspective, being a guardian i still find it hard to believe someone who read all the differences still finds us not that much out of whack. if you raid with a zerker where their role is controlling adds you will understand when you hear the healers screaming for cures and to get the mobs away from them. then on other fights where it can take several pulls just to get our aggro and survivability distributed where if you try too hard to hold aggro you wind up eating dirt or if you set yourself even a tiny bit overboard to absorb a hit the person next to you winds up eating dirt next to the other 3.

experience the issues and you experience our pain.