Berserker class needs a lot of work - Plea for help.

Since KoS Zerkers have been dying.... most of us that are left are either unable to attend raids on their zerker... or relegated to just being in the scout group. Which I wouldn't mind too much except that I'm not even really appreciated there either.

First off... We get our Hate from DPS... more so than Guardians do. Yet consistently SOE gives them better single target DPS over zerkers... which can be seen quite clearly in our EOF AA's which gave them 9% more double attack than us. I am not saying remove their double attack... I'm saying we should have had a crit AA to match that.

When it came time to give a raid wide buff... we got HP regen... the WORST of all the fighter raid-wides. They got Defense.. which although not great is arguably better. We should have been given a raidwide beserk... or something... anything DPS related since we are supposed to be the more DPS focused warrior. No one is happy with the regen.

Our Class armor... lol... regen boost... fantastic... take our WORST ability... and make it better... not good or acceptable... just better than it was... still a joke.

Guardians have more "Panic defense modes" like say "tower of stone"

Guardians have more snap aggro like "recapture"

The final nail in the coffin being the latest blow... the epics.



As you can see... ours solidifies us as doing AE damage... where as thiers makes them a better tank (tower shield with 60% double attack from STA line)

When you count the number of raids... (which if you have a mythical... that's where you spend all your time at... ) that require you to grab aggro or dish out damage to muliple targets at once and compare it to single target encounters... you will quickly see going AE is a big problem... a BIG ENOUGH PROBLEM THAT WARLOCKS WERE GIVEN AN ABILITY TO TURN AE's INTO SINGLE TARGETS ON THEIR EPICS.

There are 2 effects on the zerker epic people would want to turn off...
1.) AE attack is not always what you want... mezzing is good... doing damage to 2-4 orange ^^^ mobs is usually a very bad idea... the goal is to pull and kill 1 at a time... or mez them if you get 2.
2.) HP regen = aggro - OK... now correct me if I am wrong but most guild decided zerkers can't even be off-tanks at this point... so most of us are in the scout group wearing some chain even... just to max DPS and give them our zerk buff. We have 1 healer in there not 3... and that healer is frequently an inquisitor that is not buffing our MIT but rather buffing our DPS... and often trying to DPS themselves. The last thing I need to be doing is gaining aggro without an evade tool.

I also want to point out the diminishing returns issue on Haste and DPS at this point.
I can proc zerk for 32% DPS and 32% haste... alot of classes can now buff like 50% or more DPS or haste... and we have gear, adorns, and AAs that can get us to 40% DPS and Haste pretty easy ungrouped and unbuffed.

100 HASTE and 100 DPS = 100%
200 HASTE and 200 DPS = 125%

Most of the time our zerk proc is being ripped to shreds by the diminishing returns zone... 32% on M1 at lvl 80 is quickly boiled down to say um... 8%.. what I am saying is that for a short term buff the constant roll out of expansions with bigger better haste items and buffs has made our short term buff... near useless.

Our Open Wounds buff.... cool... an Ancient teaching that if you have the epic is now useless... grats us a free hotbar slot I guess...

I am not screaming "Nerf Guardians" Because frankly... many of them were zerkers until EoF or RoK... SOE... you MADE THEM DO THAT. It would be completely unfair to nerf them after all the work of betrayal and re-gearing... BUT... We need to have a purpose for our beloved Berserker class.

What I would like to see?

---Epic Ideas---
---Keep in Mind there are random suggestions each one separate not "add all of these"---

1.) 10% crits added to our raid-wide regen buff. It would make that spell less of a joke... it would give the guild a reason on why you would want to have a 3rd tank and why that 3rd tank should be a zerker. It would also give groups 1 more reason to want to have a zerker as a tank... they help group DPS.

2.) Epic that adds equivalent to a fabled buckler's Avoidence and status of using a buckler... IF a 2nd weapon is equipped in the offhand... Basically what I am getting at is allowing us to dual wield like a monk where they have like an innate shield "defelection" yet allowing us to keep double attack.
--- Guardians STA line 60% double attack... now allowed with tower shield in offhand granting increased avoidence.
--- Berserkers STA line 60% double attack... now allowed while dual wielding... without sacrificing buckler avoidence.

3.) Right Click Activate - Juggernaught to the Group.

4.) Right Click Activate - Crits add double the normal aggro.

---Alternate Ability Fixes---
Drop one of our current EoF AA's and replace it with a % Crit AA or something similar to mirror the Guardian DPS increase from Double Attack AA... maybe the short term Mayhem one... or Unyielding Will.

---Combat Ability Fixes---

1. Add 1 Snap aggro ability
2. Find a way where we can hold aggro better on orange mobs... low hit rates and smaller taunt values than Guards = we can't hold aggro.

• If we are in offensive we are not really "tanking" so take too much damage.

• If we are in defensive we don't have their +slashing buff AND our taunt values are lower.. so the + aggression links back to smaller taunts than Guards so even just without DPS they have better aggro due to similar resist rate on taunt but larger taunts... but then on top of that the +slashing group buff repairs some of the -slashing damage being done by being in defensive.

I am unsure on how to go about fixing this... it just needs done.

*** Side note to SOE... you should make a 4 value scale for all fighters - value 1-10

• Defense
• Offense
• Aggro
• Utility

All tanks should have value 1-10... monks, bruisers, paladins, shadowknights, guardians... and yes berserkers. Come up with a set number of points you want all tanks to have... and try and balance them according to your "ideals" or as your old guru said "the vision" then go back to the class and see if for instance a Berserker really has more DPS than a Guardian.... and if an SK really has more utility than a Berserker... etc. This will help you keep things balanced better.. because you will always have a chart to look at... right now I think it's just a guessing game and listing to current whining. In KoS yes we were overpowered... I will admit that... but swinging the pendulum in the opposite direction due to complaints is not a fix... it's just a re-direction of the problem. You need a guiding light... the 4 bars of balance written on paper.. laminated and hung on a wall.. to guide you to real balance.

*** I do not want Guardians nerfed... Brigands and Swashbucklers are already starting to tank instances... we need them to be hardcore tanks... we just want to join them in that role. ***

The other thread of note is on the Veeshan's Peak set armor bonuses.. which I think is a reaction to this post... so I posted on that here.
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...62&#4604323
Fixing via gear is not viable... balance of class and gear MUST be done independently... if we are a high DPS plate wearing AE'ing "mini-dirge" when on raids... I can kinda live with that but it must be done with our class.. not with our gear.

Oh.. and fellow warriors... PLEASE reply to this and express your opinion... we can't get fixed by you merely lurking and silently nodding your head... even a

"/agree" - Skoshi - Guk Berserker

Will do.... just let SOE know how you feel.

Our epic does suck, and it looks even worse when comparing to that insane guardian epic. I allready retired couple months ago, not just because our class tho, but the whole game is going downhill more and more.

/100% agree

and to let SOE know how I feel... i feel like canceling my account!...

I was doing a cross comparison between the two weapons before i saw your post here, and it's very discouraging to know that the class you choose to make your own is the red headed step child and will always be.

Betray or quit...

...who wants my stuff?

To the OP - I agree with you 100%.
You ideas for a fix are well thought out and presented well. I have nothing to add right now because I am very upset. I have played my zerker since Nov. 2005, he is my one and only toon (have a couple family created but nothing over lvl 20). I have spent all my time building him up for myself and my guild.
I usually laugh at the " I am leaving posts" and chuckle when I see the " can I have ur stuff" post quickly follow. But I am strongly considering it. Betraying is another possibility but feel like I am losing too much invested and giving up on the class I have loved since day one.
The mythical is meant to be a goal for everyone that raids to shoot for. I just dont feel that right now. My casual guild is still working on T1 as it has taken time for people to level up but I do read the posts and have friends in other guilds that are working on VP so I do know whats going on. These weapons are for raiding but all the zerker mythical does is push us out of highend raids.
I just cant express my frustration that I feel completely Bone'd.

Signed, sealed, and dated!
I completely agree, I just saw our Mythical version today (I had seen the Guard one the other night).
I was holding out and hoping that the Mythical Epic was going to be something super special based on what I saw on the Guard one, but after seeing it, its as if SOE reached into my soul to steal what little hope I had left, and set it ablaze, stomped it out and pissed on the ashes. (lol, dont mean to be so dramatic, but I am about >< this close to betraying.. or just finding another game to play)
Epics aside, we do need work, and I feel that any of the suggestions made by Nembutal would bring something back to the class.
Golbone - 80 Zerker of AB

Well the thing is... it won't always be.... for a little while in Kingdom of Sky Zerkers were the DPS gods of the tank world... AND could tank 95% as good as a guardian.

SOE goes in cycles on a lot of classes... some will always be the step child... Troubadour and Monk are the 2 I don't think will EVER change.... but Zerker I don't think has to be the step-child... and it wasn't always that way.

SOE reacts to things in a swinging motion... in like 3 expansions Guardians will probably be screaming that Zerks are overpowered and there is a chance at that point in time they will be. There is no stability to what they do... it's "OMG LETS FIX IT!" or "They have been the kings for a while... it's time we stomp them into the dirt for a bit" I don't mean to be insulting to you SOE guys... we all have flaws as people and as organizations... the important thing is that we can recognize them and try and avoid those pitfalls in the future.

The way I see it...

Beserkers are supposed to be better at DPS... with an affinity to AE or Encounter AE DPS (which apparently SOE sees it somewhat this way also) and our Aggro is supposed to be from DPS and less on Taunts.

Guardians are supposed to do slightly less DPS with a slight boost to tanking ability.. alot less AE dmg... and more of the aggro is from taunts.

It wasn't until recently when we started seeing the Guardians single target dmg matching or surpassing our own.... and that's MOSTLY due to the EoF 9% double attack AA... and the fact that our zerk proc is being smashed down by the diminishing returns curve after 100 haste and DPS. I don't think all of that was intended... especially the way the diminishing returns impacts us.

It's also a well known fact that people are hitting orange mobs less and less often... and that's a big issue for ALL classes... but with most classes it only impacts their ability to DPS... for us since we were designed to get aggro via DPS... it impacts that as well. Also... since most of our CA's are garbage barely worth pressing... most of our DPS is auto attack DPS unlike say assassins. I mean seriously... how important is our "kick" I press it because I feel guilty if I don't... not because it does anything for me or my raid... 1 auto attack swing does like WAY more damage than kick with my gear, AA's, levels, class.

It's just that I don't think SOE has sat down to look at the overall all impact of the auto attack hit rate and the diminishing returns rate on haste and DPS and how it impacts us as BERSERKERS... nor do I think they ever took our EoF AA line complaints seriously enough.

It's time to stand up and be heard.... or we can sit down and be quiet and plot to all betray and run around in master crafted for a couple mths and re-do all of our epic line again... I prefer to speak up myself. But IMHO there is no longer the option of just sitting around and pretending that I like what they have done to us... nor do I think anyone at SOE can look at the sum total and say "yeah the 2 warriors are balanced" in good conscience anymore when confronted with the facts.

/agree

While I don't necessarily agree with all the fixes outlined in the OP's post above (I for one am not fixated on dual wielding), I totally agree with the general principles outlined and why so many berserkers have been upset....even before the mythical version of the epic was discovered I might add, all that's done is pour 100 gallons of fuel on an already open blaze.

For any of the developers who choose to read this, the bottom line here is, berserkers are supposed to be offensive warrior tanks to be sure, but still tanks nonetheless. When you revamped some of the Achievement lines recently, you added a good chunk of DPS to guardians, and by comparison did precious little to help us in terms of survivability by comparison (and almost literally nothing at all when it comes to the Beserker-specific tree line, which has been stated over, and over, and over again how much it needs addressing). The epic/mythical situation gives Guardians another boost on both dps and survivability, where ours maybe helps some DPS wise but beyond a not-permanent-when-equipped 5% damage reduction does absolutely nothing for survivability. The gap has only widened further and further the last year or so.

What I expect as a berserker: I expect to be roughly 15% or so less effective defensively speaking than a guardian, and on the flip side be roughly 15% more effective offensively than a guardian, so that while I take more damage over the same period of time, I also do more damage over the same period of time, so that in effect, the end result tanking ability is fairly well balanced between the two. In real world practice, it feels more and more like you're going way over that threshold on both sides of the spectrum and thus making us more and more of a DPS machine that starts to rival the straightforward DPS classes, and less viable in a tanking role. While the DPS is nice....we still are first and foremost above all else tanks. That's what we signed up for, and that's what we still expect to be. And while for most non-raid content we can still do just fine regardless, every change you've made regarding both sides of the Warrior fence has made the berserker less and less viable/attractive in raid scenarios. It shouldn't come as any surprise then as the coming tide of outcry grows louder and louder.

So thus, I know alot of folks are upset and/or going to be upset right now, and many aren't going to use the most calm and constructive manner to communicate where we see you heading the wrong direction and/or not seeing/understanding where we're coming from and need changes made. But I implore you to try and see past the flames in this and other threads and actually attempt to listen to what's being said at the core of it all. The outcry over the epic/mythical weapon are not just born simply out of that discovery alone; that is simply a catalyst, or worse in many cases, the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back for many berserkers.

I agree 100%. Especially when I'm on a raid and I see our guard (who's in pretty much the same gear as me including weapon) match my dps in DEFENSIVE stance. Granted with him as MT and me as OT he's got the pick of buffs from the raid but still...He's the defensive warrior, I'm supposed to be the one dishing out the dps.
And the new hit rates are horrible. If I'm tanking oranges it's tough as hell because I'm forced to go defensive because of how hard the mobs hit and I can't hold any aggro becaue I can't hit anything.
As far as the diminishing returns it impacts us way too much. I can easily hit 100% haste and about 75% dps solo. As soon as I'm in a group or raid I'm way past the cap and changing gear and tactics to maximize myself without sacrificing or wasting anything. Sad thing is I'm not in any RoK fabled, all my gear is from instances.
I've been avoiding the trend of betrayal because I really love my class and I would feel guilty about doing that to my guild. We've already had 1 80 zerker betray to a guardian and now I'm the only 1 left. Lately though I'm not sure how much more I can take. SoE has ignored us far too long. We had several threads discussing how unhappy we were with our EoF AA's and our complaints fell on deaf ears. We've asked that our regen line be changed to something usefull since I don't know any zerkers who even use it and that got ignored. Already many of the top zerks WW have betrayed or are quiting, the epic was just the last straw. It used to be that guards and zerks could be the MT of many raid guilds. Now most are using 2 guards because their dps has gone up while ours has stayed the same and our defensive skills have stayed the same. And don't talk to me about adrenaline, every once in a while it will save you but anyone that's ever used it can tell you how much it sucks.
I don't want a nerf on guardians. Honestly I have no issues with our brother warriors getting hooked up. All I want is the attention that is due our class. I almost wish I could say that we've been nerfed but that's not the case, we've just been forgotten about. All the changes to gameplay and combat mechanics have affected us and we haven't been adjusted with them. This needs to be addressed and I really hope a dev sees this. Hopefully we can keep the responses and critizism here positive so our post doesn't get deleted like so many similar posts before.

Tynd@Everfrost wrote:

I am not focused on dual wielding actually.... I would prefer to have a tower shield and keep my double attack just like Guardians... but that doesn't add flavor and make the 2 classes unique.... which is why I suggested letting us dual wield and keep the STA line. I places us more apart from them by giving them better avoidance and us better DPS but without changing much else.

Also also agree we are Tanks first.... The only part I disagree with is that we are rivaling DPS classes and that we beat Guardians... because both of those are actually not true when you run a parser anymore. With me being in offensive stance in offensive gear using my standard "hybrid" AA set-up I think it's STR 4/4/8/1 STA 4/4/8/8/2 WIS 4/4/8/8/2 while using juggernaught and all the trimmings to turn me into full DPS... I BARELY beat the guardians.... I DO beat both of them... but just by a little considering we all have Dirges with us and they are in defensive and wearing tanking gear with tanking specs... I would say that's not very good. I will also say that on fights that I do about 2,500 DPS on the same mobs my assassin brother is doing 5,000 DPS on... I don't consider doing HALF being close. My Warlock brother puts me to shame also... my Fury can get close and it's a healer. We are not being made a DPS class by any means... we have only been granted the status of BAD TANK. If I had been simultaneously granted DPS CLASS THAT IS ALSO A DECENT TANK I would be just thinking "SOE's image of what they want us to be has changed.. I don't like it but oh well..." But what I have been presented with is not a DPS class... not a healer class... and becoming less and less of a tank class... we need focus.

We need to make sure that you are correct... that it doesn't exceed 15% of Guardians DPS... nor do we fall 15% below Guardians ability to tank... and part of tanking is maintaining aggro... REGARDLESS OF CON COLOR. I am OK if we hold better aggro on multiples and they hold slightly better on single target oranges....

Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:

I underscore the above as well....I for one don't want this to become an us vs. everyone else deal and have guards, or brawlers (who have legitimate issues of their own) or even crusaders over here pleading their case too or have ping-pong flaming going on. We're closest kin to guardians though, so there's going to be alot of comparison/contrast there by default, you can't get away from that. One thing that shocked me was, when I saw the guardian mythical, I thought what would have been fair would have been somewhat lesser versions of the defensive buffs...i.e. to lift the shield restrictions for us also except with the exception of tower shields in our case, and to give us the riposte immunity with the condition of 'whenever target is berserk'. You do those two and leave the mythical proc and all the stat modifiers that's on it now the same (ours is offensive, theirs is defensive) and it starts to look alot better than it does now.

But again, our issues go way beyond just the issues with the epic weapon....that to me is more the end of the conversation here than the starting point. The Beserker-specific achievement tree needs serious attention, and the health regen either needs to be actually made worthwhile and meaningful somehow or else changed into something else completely different.

I really hope Dimglow gets in on this thread because he's always been the most knowledgable, fair/balance-minded and effective communicator/advocate for our cause.

Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:

Definitely... keep it positive... don't attack the devs or Guardians. last thing we need is to have either of the upset with us or get the thread locked... that won't help us at all.

Also don't go over the top... that just makes us look like fools... saying we need 100% crits on all the time sounds cool when you say it.. but not to the devs that have to read it. We want realistic requests or simple agreement... and we have to expect we will not get all of them or even most of them. We also want to keep in mind we don't want to push too hard on the pendulum and swing it really far our way.. because when The guardians push back we will end up right back where we are today 3 expansions from now. Also we don't want to step on the toes of the Monks, Bruisers, Brigands or Swash that are also melee that are more DPS and less tank. We want to be Berserkers.. Plate Tanks that have some DPS.

Tynd@Everfrost wrote:

Dimglow is gone - he betrayed and is on a PVP server now. Thank you for posting my thoughts better than me - I am too upset to think straight about this anymore.
I have never done this in 3 years:
DEVS - I will gladly test a guard and zerker with identical gear on Test. I will spend the time and give u all the data u want. We NEED help.

Nembutal wrote:

Nembutal wrote:

This is what I've always wanted. I knew when I rolled my zerk that I would get hit harder than guardians, the tradeoff for me was being able to out DPS them. Sadly when you run a parser now that's not the case. They can take the hits and give them right back.
And I do hope Dimglow can put his side on this as well, but I just saw his post on flames (along with many others on this subject) and it's not very encouraging.

Trynnus1 wrote:

Both Dimglow and Skel for that matter as well whom I should have included in the above statement have betrayed, yes, but to my knowledge they still have access and the ability to read/post here, and their knowledge and insight still applies just the same IMO.

You want Dimglow's Opinion? Ok.. You got it.

http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers...ly-shows-3.html

Dimglow

"This is a travesty.

I've loved the berserker class enough to write FAQs on it, and try to help answering questions on forums and such. Odds are I will never even see my mythical weapon due to being on a PVP server in a faction side. But if I had even a 5% chance of getting those weapons I'd betray almost instantly.

I may even betray just on principle, and that means surrendering all of my class PVP rewards, all of my guild status contributed (almost TWO MILLION) all of my PVP faction and more. That is how unbalanced the two weapons are. They introduce differences in the classes so wide that sacrificing 2+ years of character development is a worthwhile trade.

You guys $%^$^ up. Bad."

Told you it wasn't encouraging. Many others in that thread are saying the same things. And I agree that the epics were just the last straw. I mean seriously I parse close to the same with the Nathsar Shortsword as I do with the group aquired epic. I'm still sitting the fence on betrayal though hoping that we can get the devs to do something. You would think that a dramatic drop in the number of zerks/increase of cancelled accounts would be a red flag.

Tynd@Everfrost wrote:

Skel did Betray... and he is talking to those of us who wish to betray.

http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...zerk-guard.html

Skel
"most of the CAs are the same... it really isn't much different."