Berserk, and how it relates to defense.

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Hunadi, Feb 23, 2005.

  1. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Erick i fight lvl 45+ mob's, ^^ mob's that usally come with a small group of 1 or 2 ^ mob's, lvl 45+ group encounter that consist of 5-6 mob's each encounter, what im trying to say is, with this amount of mob's at that level, im bound to almost alway's having 2 berserk icon flashing, just like i said above in a few post's up replying to one of your's, but my HP doesnt drop like you are stating. One reason it could be is because you are lvl 32 stuck 8 level's behind me ( almost 9 ) and im not using certain Berserk proc probability combat art's that you would be using at your current level, meaning that maybe one or two of the Berserk proc probability combat art's in your level range could be bugged. I have no problem tanking multiple lvl 45+ mob's, solo, single ^^, group encounter's, group encounter's with numerous ^, I tank Devout Thule in Feerrott and have had 2 Berserk Icon's flashing at time's during that fight, now since your level 32, you will have no idea what i am talking about, so ill just leave it at that. Let me come down to your level a bit, ill throw this in there for something to think about, you know in Zek, all the small group x2 encounter's that consist of 4 mob's, 3 normal and one ^^ mini boss mob in there? Well i could solo the group x2 encounter's at lvl 39, fully buffed, and procing 2 berserk's during the encounter, i had no problem tanking these when they were green, i have no problem duoing green, blue, and certain white con mob's reguardless of if there ethier solo, single ^^, group encounter's, once they become yellow and higher, they need to be group's to take them down.
    One last thing, let me ask this again since you speak of testing, have you tested each and every Berserk proc probability combat art we have in the book individually to see which one might be reducing your mitigation that you seem to be the only one proclaiming ? Only thing you have seemed to extensively test is multiple buff's at one time, how many nail's can you hit on the head at once when you have 10 in front of you?
    Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker
    16th Outfitter
    Blood and Ice
    Everfrost Server

    Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
    70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
    Five Rings on Luclin Server
  2. ARCHIVED-Xasis Guest

    I just want to throw my two cents in here. Could it be something else entirely? IE you are taking more damage with 2 icons flashing than not, but not for the reason that you think? Could the causality be different?

    IE, you think

    cause: two zerk icons flashing
    effect: more damage comes in


    but instead, could it be?
    casue: more damage comes in
    effect, more zerk effects fire off making more of them flash


    just a thought.
  3. ARCHIVED-CherobylJoe Guest

    See I told ya he would have the parses :smileyvery-happy:
    I have never seen the "double berserk damage casacade" that Erik mentions, however I dont disbelieve him. Is it possible that its a *particular* set of double berserk in a particular order? I'm 39 and have tanked solo/group quite a few mobs using both focus rage berserk and other berserk skills and never seen that dramatic mitigation loss. Maybe I just dont hit the same combo in the same order. Also if it does happen hitting the Rage skill usually will cancel one of the berserk icons (maybe alleviating the casacade?).
    Also, my understanding of mitigation is that the calc value (what you see based on skills) is applied against a table based on class type (all plates having the same table). This was the model used in EQ1 (with the DB/DI model)....not sure if it translates or not as there are some really different factors
    I dont parse, way too lazy, but I have learned (mostly from the old steelwarrior.org) that objective parse > 1000 subjective evaluations.
    Message Edited by CherobylJoe on 02-24-2005 12:51 PM
  4. ARCHIVED-FamilyManFirst Guest


    This may have been true before Big Patch #2 (2/1/05) but it isn't anymore. The AC value you see in your Persona screen is now a calculated estimate based on the AC of your gear (which is all Mitigation except Shields, which are Avoidance [blocks]) and a composite of your "Avoidance," including Defense skill, Agility, Shield, Parry, etc. It's supposed to reflect the overall "Damage Taken over Time" (DToT) that any given character will take. It's only supposed to be used for comparison between characters.

    A person's total Mitigation score (the sum of the AC of your gear, excepting Shields) may well be applied against different tables based on Archetype, though. That wouldn't surprise me, particularly since I've seen posts on other classes' boards stating that, even though they have similar gear on, they take much more damage when mobs start pounding on them than Fighters do.
  5. ARCHIVED-Toxaur Guest

    lol Xasis...

    "Could the causality be different?"

    _____________



    someone has had way too much Matrix: Revolutions.... lol



    .
  6. ARCHIVED-Erick_Stormfury Guest

    I think its funny how people will listen to one guy blab on based on theory....
    just because the new spell description doesn't say everything that it does, you assume it doesnt do anything else.

    for example, we all know if you buff in combat, it generates aggro.. mobs dont like whne you buff.. well guess what, go check those same buff description... nope nothing in the description about generating aggro.

    before talking about how beserk doesnt reduce mitigation, all i ask is try my test.

    take off all your rage type buffs, and go fight a double arrow up, green mob. watch what kind of damage your taking.. (you can do this solo too, so it really doesnt take that long)

    then do the fight, and try to keep one rage icon blinking....

    then do it one more time trying to keep two rage icons blinking.....


    warning, if you keep two rage icons blinking, the green mob may kill you, so word of warning, but i think you'll find my point made immediatly...


    dont just believe some shmuck on the boards here saying I'M USING A PARSER, you might be suprised, based on half his answers i'd say he's reading descriptions off the skills, and speculating, and NOT parsing.. because anyone who parses (not just logs combat, but parses based on.. this fight i did this, this fight i did this this fight i did this...) will be able to tell you, YOU DO TAKE MORE DAMAGE.

    i'm done here, i'm not going to respond anymore, because were accomplishing nothing. I encourage everyone to try this themselves, my 5 minute test will confirm what i say, but dont just take somebodies word for it, try it yourself.


    -Erick
  7. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    All group buff's generate agro, not raise Hate / Threat, get agro on a mob, run out of range of a healer class, then back into buff range and see what happen's.

    And im saying this one last time Erick cause your starting to beat a dead horse, read my post's again, you will see i have performed your test's, and ive performed my own, on each individual berserk probability skill's, anyway, read my last post before this one on what i tested it all on.

    Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker
    16th Outfitter
    Blood and Ice
    Everfrost Server

    Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
    70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
    Five Rings on Luclin Server
  8. ARCHIVED-LauraG Guest

    Lol, i like how thid kid trying to convince everyone about his stupid ideas.

    Go play a guardian or something you bring shame on the zerker class.

    Going berserk has no negative effect what so ever.

    Im a lv 50 zerker, been lv 50 for the past 2 months now, killed more mobs than i could remember.


    GOING INTO BERSERK MODE DOES NOT AFFECT YOUR TANKING ABILLITIES !!!!


    Also, if you are a berserker that doesnt wanna go into zerk mode, you should quit this game RIGHT NOW !!!!!
  9. ARCHIVED-Toxaur Guest

    i have no proof, but i have done tests and noticed the same exact thing erick has.

    1 berzerk doesn't change my tanking abilities.

    2 berzerk makes me take WAY more damage.


    i can solo certain green con double arrow up GROUP mobs... with reckless stance. however, if i let 2 berzerks stack and dont cancel one, i die. no matter what, i can no longer solo that mob. green con double arrow up group mobs can only hit me about 1 in 10 attacks. When 2 berzerks stack, as long as they are stacked, i seem to take nearly full damage, and get hit nearly every attack.

    I seriously doubt this is intended, but i am sure it is a bug.
  10. ARCHIVED-LauraG Guest

    Ok, let me try to explain this better, seems some of the ppl dont get it.

    Lets start with the " Berserk " description.

    - Cast Berserk on caster. When target is STRUCK , this spell has a 33% chance to:
    . increase damage per second of the attacker by 5%

    . increase attack speed of caster by 43%


    Now lets look at it this way. If you couldnt figure it out, you go into berserk mode WHEN YOU GET HIT.

    You dont get hit, you NEVER go into berserk mode.

    Now , why sometimes you get 2 berserk windows?

    BECAUSE YOU GET HIT SO MANY FRIGGIN TIMES, YOU HAVE A VERY VERY VEEEERY HIGH CHANCE TO CAST BERSERK FROM EACH HIT, AND SOMETIMES YOU ACTIVATE IT FROM MORE THAN 1 SKILL.

    What do we learn from here? Thats right, this mob is not the same as the one that only puts you in 1 single berserk, this one is more powerful. hence thats why you getting your [FAAR-NERFED!] kicked and not couse you see 2 berserk icons.

    And for the love of God, pls stop talking about mobs like " green ^^ ". There are mobs and mobs, there are caster and melee, there are names and simple mobs, there are levels and levels. there are buffs and debuffs.

    No mob looks the same as other mob just couse you see it " green ^^ ".
  11. ARCHIVED-Toxaur Guest

    let me explain this very clearly in return.


    we are noticing the amount of damage done to us GO UP when berzerked x2

    we could be getting hit everytime, but for only 40 dmg a pop, and for some reaosn when berzerked x2, the damage goes up to 100-200 dmg a pop.


    get it now?




    i was trying to be nice, but rude begets rude.
  12. ARCHIVED-LauraG Guest

    I dont notice any increase in damage, i only notice increase in the number of hits.

    I already explined to you why, harder mob, more hits, you get more than 1 berserk state. You die.

    And for the record, i watched the character info window, the zerk mode doesnt even stack, you dont get any bonus from having 2 zerk icons.

    Now, just coming here and saying you saw the damage going up, just so you can prove your theory, i call you a LIAR.

    If you really want to prove it, go parser the EXACT same mob like 20 times and post a picture where we can all see that the EXACT same attack from the EXACT same mob is double in some cases.

    Til then, pls stop from sharing your "knowledge" .

    EDIT: And another thing, just to prove the first poster how "well" he knows about mechanics, MITIGATION IS AC.

    They changed that EVERYTHING, ac, defense, parry, everything reflects now in AC. So no, there is no conspiracy, this is how the game mechanics are. If you dont see a change in the AC number, your defense is not lowered.
    Message Edited by LauraG on 02-25-2005 06:33 PM
  13. ARCHIVED-Toxaur Guest

    well i notice a difference. i never said defense was lowered. i said it's probably a bug.
  14. ARCHIVED-Tyfiz Guest

    Ok, im a 26 berserker, just like to throw my thoughts out there. Please dont jump my case if you disagree with me ok, this is just from my personaly exp. I solo alot since i usually have very little time to play but everyonce in awhile i get a grp, ok I i have gotten a upgraded player's page so, just go with this, im in a full suit of orange armor and orange jewlery. crude veluim belt, pristine forged scimitar, black something dagger, etc, etc,.. well i was solo skellys in TS near the tower 2 i think it is not quite sure. There about even too blue sometimes and i pull casters and all the like. While soloing i go berserker all the time and usually i DW so i can kill the mob fast. When berserkering x2 or single, i do notice some more dmg coming in, not that there hitting harder, but there hitting more frequently, and yeah sometimes harder, the caster skellys are a joke, i can just DPS them dead like nothing so theres really not much to talk about there. After reading my skill not saying anythign about losing def, but remember that when EQ2 barely started that focused rage said something about losing def i thought maybe thats with all berserks. So i got myself a giant grp, figuring they hit harder might be a good little exp loot and see if i lose def, well i never saw any of my numbers change, and i was MT the whole time the grp was there. So we worked out way to the big hole where the name spawns and by those lil ruins where a single name spawns, and i tried to DW them while MT but healer was having to heal me like crazy and wanting to take breaks alot. So i put on my shield and i wasnt taking as much dmg but i was still getting hit ALOT!!!! i figured maybe my shiled just sucked. So we killed a named, and it dropped a mithral buckler or something like that, and everyone in grp was like you take it it you seem to need it. SO i put it on, and was using it and noticed the dmg i was taking was again less, but i was still getting hit like crazy, and i had my berserks on at all times, trying to get double berserker for more haste and such. I dunno i just thought id throw that out there, i have no parsers but just my own experince from hunting. Thank You all for your time :)

    KEEP ON ZERK'N
  15. ARCHIVED-VonSteinan Guest

    There ARE hidden defensive numbers in this game....

    AC mitigation is just one..... another set has to do with Slash / Crush/ Pierce defenses.

    Nowhere on my character can I find numbers about MY slash/crush/pierce defenses (attacks yes, defense no) and yet there are racial abils, buffs and debuffs which affect these.

    Its entirly possible that mitigation is being lowered without it being reflected in your Persona window.


    And yes, andecdotaly, I see this happening to my Zerker as well, when double zerked, I do "seem" to take more damage.
  16. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Slashing, Peirce and Crushing Defense is included in your AC number, buff yourself with Toughness or Havoc or Anarchy and watch your AC, read the descriptions of the spell's. Templar's have a few buff's that add to Slashing, Crushing and Peircing mitigation, ask them to buff you and watch your AC number rise, i know this cause my wife is a lvl 40 Templar.

    Moorgard wrote :
    Berserkers can wear the same armor and wield the same shields as guardians. There are no hidden mitigation bonuses for either class, so a berserker and a guardian of the same level, stats, and skills with the same armor/shield combo will have the same base avoidance and mitigation. Guardians have arts that give them increased defensive capabilities, while berserkers have arts that give them increased offense. That's the key difference between the two warrior classes. Keep in mind that if you play a berserker and are not using a shield while tanking, you're missing out on a huge part of the tank's damage avoidance capability. Crusader and warrior classes are intended to use shields while acting as a tank.
    ===========================
    Moorgard
    EverQuest II Community Guy
    http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=5006
    Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker
    16th Outfitter
    Blood and Ice
    Everfrost Server

    Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
    70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
    Five Rings on Luclin Server
  17. ARCHIVED-Styker Guest

    That was a good link to show.... Berserk mode does not decrease your defense or mitigation... its whole purpose it to raise your DPS 5%.... read that description of all yourspells/arts... some are different , some berserk omdes give you 36% and some give up to 46% haste.... it depends on which art

    Strykr Destructicus
    44 Berserker
    AB Server
  18. ARCHIVED-CherobylJoe Guest

    1) Calling people names isnt going to help you.
    2) I experimented all weekend with double berserk states (both using all sorts of mixes of skills to trigger berserk). In no case did I see the damage cascade you mentioned. So objectively I cant repeat what you observed; maybe becuase I am using level 40 tools, maybe because it isnt there, beats the heck out of me.
    Before you started calling people names I might have been inclined to believe you had something. Now I just think you are acting like a hot head.
  19. ARCHIVED-CherobylJoe Guest

    Tox, can you PM the data (mob etc)...I want to play with this myself. I dont disbelieve that in certain circumstances a double berserk might have unintended comsequences...just want to prove it objectively.
  20. ARCHIVED-Styker Guest

    Also did some testing with double berserk status and no i didnt take a mitigation or defense hit also.... Erick pls read our spell/arts descriptions not once does any berserk proc say anything about a lose in defense for the 5% dps gain