I think it's great that you consider it normal for someone to do 15 times more damage than you. I, who remember when things weren't like that, expect something else from the game.
There we have it. You remember the days when things were so broken that a T3 support class could parse with a T1 that brings hardly nothing lol. You remember the times RO/VC was broke and allowed you to top parses. You remember reforging during the broken era of auto-attack where you probably crushed souls as a bard. Bards are a support class who realistically are T3 DPS. Do some people defy and parse super well, sure. Gone are the days you smash RO/VC and top5 parses. Gone are the days auto-attack is broken and specced right you could be top of the parse. It doesn’t matter if DPS does 15-20 times your DPS. Your a support class lol. It sounds like you really want to play a DPS toon but haven’t figured it out. I think it’s great you think a support class should be competing with T1 DPS, those two tiers above you lol.
You put things in my mouth that I didn't say or you have reading comprehension problems. I don't want to parse like a t1. I already have a t1 class. I don't want a broken spell like melody of affliction, I already said above that they will remove them and balance the rest of ca/spells. I'm not going to repeat myself, look above and reread the posts.
You are correct. Raids still want bards 100%. We're wanted for 1.) Powerfeed 2.) Buffs 3.) Rezzes (Dirges) 4.) Confront Fear (Dirge) 5.) Upbeat Tempo (Troub) Aside from that, our DPS is minimal unless you're in a stacked group and you're in Mayong/Den Challenge gear. So as one individual said before, it makes us much less desirable in a group setting as we're easily replaced by another class of just about anything. Bards are typically a "last resort" in groups. In raids bards are quite desirable for the added push of stats for everyone else, but heck... we are the absolute bottom of the dps totem-pole. We aren't asking to be "Godmode" as a few have stated... but it would be nice not be viewed as a "last one picked on the team" class and to not have to depend on pity-placement in groups because we aren't necessary at all. I've cleared Mayong regularly, am at about 7775 Resolve and over 800k Potency 500 ADC, but bards still have to beg, plead, or borrow our way into groups, because we're just not viable anymore. Folks that don't play bards of course will say, "stop your whining and quit wanting to be "Godmode", but for those of us who do, it would be nice to get the same enjoyment out of our subscription money as the folks that get to enjoy our buffs. I think all we're really asking is to make us viable again. Don't have to give us 1 massive AE nuke from AA's... maybe spend a smidge more time to balance out the CA's/Spells, maybe give a little love to the AA trees, maybe give a little love to the dps mitigations that were fixed on mages but ignored on non-dps classes? There's all kinds of ways to make bards better without going "Godmode". I mean wouldn't the rest of the EQ community appreciate getting bards that make significant contributions to groups/raids? Or is everyone just going to keep pounding their chest and demanding that the best abilities always be catered to the elite/preferred classes? Everyone likes to focus on "dps should be higher for our dps classes" because dps wants to get that ego-boost from ACT parses... but is that the real answer to balancing classes? Not asking for miracles... just a little TLC for very neglected classes. We want to enjoy the game just as much as the rest of the community. This post also is not a dig on anyone's viewpoints, but lots of folks step out of the woodworks to tell bards to shut-up and be glad we are even allowed to be warming the benches. I'm here to defend the view from the bard side of the isle.
I had to actually start a Troub and a Dirge and run them through the Agnostic Dungeons solos just so I could have a "real world", first hand look for myself. I know things sometimes change at higher levels, but my experience has been that out of 20 active characters on my roster (yeah major Altitus, lol), My two bards are the fastest at clearing the dungeon. Not because of their earth shattering DPS, but because they buff and debuff the hell out of everything. Lord Valkiss Ssi'sh was already a terror as a Merc Companion. He's a chainsaw when accompanied by a bard. Bodies dropping everywhere like flies. Again, I'm NOT saying I have a complete picture here. My toons are nowhere near high enough to take on Mayong. It does seem to me like every time I see one of these threads though, DPS is the sole determinant of the class's worth. What a class may bring to a group in terms of healing, warding, power feed (in the case of Illy & Coercers), and Buffs & Debuffs has to be taken into account as well. In the case of that list in post 21 for example, how much of that damage the others put out would have dried up completely without the bajillion buffs a bard can have going at once?
The benefit of a bard's buffs and debuffs is no greater than replacing the bard with a dps that does 15 times more damage than the bard. To get raids to carry bards, developers use mechanics like mana drain that force raids to carry classes they wouldn't otherwise need. You are at low levels and you find that playing a bard is a lot of fun because of its versatility. That's what we thought too.
Why would a raid need to carry a bard for power feed. Any chanter can solo feed it, especially with mana bubble runes lol. Furthermore, why would any raid carry enchanters when bards can solo feed any encounter. So that’s a wrong logic. Ideal for buffs is one in each group though…still…
I'm getting closer to mid levels at this point, but I know most raiders consider anything under 100 or 110 low level. AS I pointed out in my earlier post though, it's not the diversity. She may not do massive DPS herself, but her Mercenary sees a huge boost in his. I don't need to do the damage myself as long as I know I'm contributing to the team's DPS. 15x more damage than the bard seems like a bit of an exaggeration also. Either way, what you're overlooking is all those DPS characters won't be hitting as hard without the buffs of a support character or characters. Most people only set up ACT to only show DPS parses and never look at healing, buffs, or even hits and misses. People rage on the bard but overlook the DPS character who was power leveled, never got his skill ratings up and misses every other attack in a fight. "...force raids to carry classes they wouldn't otherwise need" You seem to be overlooking that MMOs are built around the idea of multi-player and multi-role teamwork. EQ2 isn't supposed to be a run and gun like Halo. Personally I wish there were alot more mechanics like that to force people away from this DPS is everything mentality.
It is not, I am speaking from my own raid experience. It may not be in a top raid, but it is in a good enough one. These are real numbers.
Yeah, the classes those mechanics were invented for are called "enchanters." You might try a few in your raid force if you think bards' only function is power supply. That shows me a lack of understanding of what a bard can contribute or maybe, more accurately, a reflection of the bards you're using.
You can do it with me, really. Let's see, did I say that the only function of a bard is mana? No. I said that the developers have invented absurd mechanics like mana drain. Isn't it true? What is mana bubble? Explain to me and tell me if that has been in eq2 raids since the beginning. When a pf is asked and a troub answers you tell him that he is not a pf? I'll tell you some more. Who is more than 50 meters away from Mayong the first 10%? The bard. Who stays further away than everyone else to just click on a stupid well? The bard Who goes like a madman looking for trash to hit with a sinister strike? The bard. And there are many more examples. These are just a few examples of many, they are not the only ones (I emphasize this because I don't want someone to think that the only function of the bard is only this). Before there was always a more complex raid, now they are all full of mechanics that may seem fun to the developers but, surprise, they are not when they are repeated so much. I've been playing a bard for 15 years. I am a raider and the only thing I see here is a lack of reading comprehension.
There's an old saying you might give some thought to. Better to be thought a fool than open your mouth (or your pen) and remove all doubt. When you say this: To get raids to carry bards, developers use mechanics like mana drain that force raids to carry classes they wouldn't otherwise need. Perhaps English is a second language for you, but when you make that statement you are in fact saying that bards only function in raid is power supply, because if the mana drain didn't exist, bards wouldn't show up in raids. As far as the other examples you cited as "bards only," they're in fact ludicrous. I'm a healer and I stand the 51 m in the Mayong fight. Any other the classes can do it. Mana bubble is an adorn; it's used in current raids by a number of classes. I carry one on my healer as do other healers. Dirges can actually heal noxious through AA spec and be in the top 5 of the heal parse, but when a healer is called for, will a dirge be accepted? Hail no. But we will agree with your statement, "all I see here is a lack of reading comprehension." Unfortunately you're the one with the issue.
Hello everyone, i used to play bard since level 100 formaly Trouba, the major issuse atm is the only view in black and white of the Coders in the Development Team. In beta 6 weeks before launch all Scouts are so highly OP as they never have been in the past, When Expansion has gone live in December every Scout was able to do 5 up tp 7 Times more DPS than every other class especialy MAGE DPS was able to do. We had this issues about 6 Weeks until DB did a patch which nefed the AOE Attack and most of the CAs, but in the same way they cut off all DPS on melee based Damage on Tanks // Healers and Bards too instat of only nerf the Scout DPS which was deffinetly OP and only the Scout DPS not all the others. Thats why Bards // Channeler // Melee Based Tanks ( Zerk // Guard // Bruiser ) // Inqui and in a way Mystic lost a lot of DPS wich is quiet need for a good Group and Raid DPS and espcialy on Tanks to build up an keep Aggro with DPS wich Zerk and Bruiser formaly need too. Monk is still a OP tank because of the still broken Dragonfire and Cursaders massive profit from being Hybrid Tanks based on Spells and CAs. As long as every classes goodness is based on the wirred thinking you need to be TOP DPS to be good things went wrong because of the major fact thier are Base Jobs to be done on every Class like Tanks having Aggro and Healer Keep Group alive , DD do DPS and Supporters increase Effictiveness of the Group or Raid. A Bard or Chanter being top DPS isnt worth more than one which can support the Group // Raid well with all its abilitys especialy the Trouba in Mage Groups is the most wanted because of its DPS Boost for the DDs Troub increase Groups DPS like 20% ore more if only thier and hit no button. especialy in raid you can compare DPS with and without good support, some Raidmobs have not been killed in past without support because of to LOW Raid DPS. Evan you dont feel be loved solo playing every DD wil kiss your Feet if your onboard and know how and when push your buttons in Raid things like Jesters // Manawall // Synergisem // Upbeat Tempo and Coercs Aggro Support for tanks for example is worth many more than a Support in DPS Top Place one DPS supporter dont benefit the Raid than a Supporter which can play its class and Increase DPS of 2 or 3 DDs per Groupe. Whis is not ment they way if your able to support well you are not supposed or allowed to do DPS same on Healers, if the y can do the Job keep group alive with left hand why dont do DPS with right hand. Result back to the roots come back to a playstyle and thinking > Good Job dose not depend on your personal DPS if your a Top Supporter Bard or Chanter. But having in mind thier are still a Benchmark in DPS depending on your Stats and Gear to reach. Hellfiren
The reading comprehension has been here from you. You are asking that all CA/Spells be bumped up, as the mages got bumped but it didn't effect blah blah blah.. They said it would only effect mages lol.. it was in the patch notes as mage DPS, cause well all mages (except chanterS) are dps... most of theirs come from mimic and thats only as good as the person they mimic.. we all know this.. Bards...15 year player... Buffs- yep, still wanted for buffs Power-feed- yep we do it well now... Off-tank adds- yep we can do that well Run across the zone if needed to do something and not die.. yep we can do that, meaning we don't need to waste healers doing it (you know, supporting the raid) Rez for us dirges (if our healers are slacking) Troubs helping keep that aggro in check So many more things as a support we can do.. but playing a bard for 15 years.. u know and would like to continue doing them all plus be top 10 in dps lol.. it's okay
So I saw this post and was somewhat disappointed in what I was reading, I mean this post was meant to bring up the fact that Bards have lost their appeal due to how the class is played Now. In a Nut shell, alot of what was said is the truth.But in the same breathe some of it is not even close to being accurate. Troubs have had a Long history of DPS Ups and Downs, I know this as I lived it, in both the Dirge and the Troub. Starting with the release of VC back in the day where we destroyed the Hole (Sentinels Fate) in 1 - 2 RO's thanks to our beloved tanks getting every skelly rounded up in the city area.(just an example, little exaggerated but it felt that way) But as each expansion came, Both Troubs and Dirges alike were given very small AA & Spell Upgrades,where a majority of the other classes found huge increases in Damage. As time passed Troubs became very useless, I believe the words I would use is "God Awful" This period took place During the Plane of Magic. Both Dirges and Troubs were relegated to Buff Bots, nothing more And that was an understatement. That continued up to BOL, but in BOL we gained some small Damage increases which lead us to ROS (better increases ) I mean it was so bad that troubs were not even allowed to goto the Emperor raids as the Scout phase Troubs and Dirges alike were decimated, Even with the wands, but that too changed for us as the more Potency we got the better we became and not long after realizing that, We were back in the raids killing our Scout oppressor with no problem. Now we get into to Current Content, Not only can we parse in the top 10 - 14, We add billions if not close to a trillion in additional damage output for our grp not including our own dps, While we are still DPS Challenged there are alot of ways to play the Bard to make the Bard viable in any given situation, Killing Trak my deeps was in the 500bill range, Mayong same thing, But its not just about my Troubs output, its all about our Buffs, Debuffs and utility which keep our groups alive, so when I hear that we are not desirable I call ********. In DEN 2 We were killing the Spider so quickly that our VC was nerfed, Didn't matter as the Devs Nerfed the Spider for those whom couldn't kill it,but now VC is doing a third of the damage it used to do. WE GET IT THE DEVS HATE BARDS!!!! Yes we dont do much damage with our Combat Arts or Spells, But yes we have our Ascensions to use and if you get into a good casting order (which took alot of time to perfect) you can hang with just about anyone. What irritates me the most is the healers out-parsing the Bards, but that just shows you how broken Bards really are. But that also give me the desire to continue improving my Bard to catch the next person and the next.. We have a lot of tools at our disposal. Now can they fix it, sure, go back to when Agility actually enhanced our damage out put and give us that back, will they do that - Probably not So what else, hmm lets see, Fix the Epic buffs as they are truly dismal, Fix Combat Arts so something other than Cheap Shot is in the top 10 Keep us nerfed like we are today and reduce the cast time of all of the Ascensions by 70% Ok, I ranted enough, Bards are Sill Unbelievable and Needed regardless of the Nerf-Bat
I had to laugh this morning. Was on my dirge (125) with something like 7325 resolve and 688K potency in Sinking Sands doing some L&L on lizards. Using Daggerstorm right next to groups and would either completely miss all of them or maybe hit one. And I was laughing at the picture of L50 mobs being able to dodge what used to be a powerful spell on a L125 bard. Hit autoattack on them and the lizards would die from laughing. At least, it sounded like laughter. But no, our dps is working as intended, it seems.
