Avatars.

Discussion in 'General TLE Discussion' started by Adoninilol, Mar 17, 2020.

  1. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Gninja,

    First of all, thank you for including these mobs in Echoes of Faydwer. It's good to have some content aimed towards high end raiders, much like Chel'drak/Matron; and the Avatars on Fallen Gate were.

    However,

    I don't think these mobs are expansion three appropriate.
    [IMG]

    To kill Growth in its current state it requires around thirty minutes of tank's cycling temps and snaps. It is not possible to stack enough healers to keep a tank up. It is simply not possible. This was not the case in original EOF/ROK/TSO or Fallen Gate. Or even the Avatars you designed in Chains of Eternity/Skyshrine Gninja. So why now?

    This means that essentially the entire raiding player base now has to bring in alts, or sit their extra tanks for everything outside of pulling/killing Avatars. The perception at the moment, and for all of Kaladim; so far you have been fine with two tanks, excluding Three Princes. Now? Keep bringing them in and sitting your entire mage group to have a shot at killing these.

    There is not a single raid force on Kaladim who raids with more than three tanks typically, the final tank is more of an option, and so is the second. I personally run a shadowknight on some occasions; not because it's efficient, but because it's a friend of the guild. If I truly wanted to efficiently run content, I could actually clear this entire expansion with one tank. One. Then you expect Avatars to take four to six? It feels like half my raid is now not experiencing these mobs, or they are on Alts.

    The reason content is so ridiculously easy, is due to the high avoidance reports possible due to low mob strike-through, and the fact they are level 75. When mobs are lower level it lets contested avoidance actually make a difference, when i'm seeing a nearly 95% avoidance report on Contested Mayong; then a 50% on Avatar of Mischief, and a 600% auto attack damage increase, how do I prepare for that.

    I already have the Mitigation Increase earring off Mayong, Soulfire for Mitigation increase; and Hunker Down is giving 11k Mitigation. I don't understand what gear I can possibly make/strive for to prepare for this shift in mob outgoing damage. It just doesn't seem like the mobs were compared at all. Everything else is just a giant training dummy, Mayong has 50 million HP, and hits for nothing. How can I bring anything to a scenario like this but two mage groups? I could run six tanks and kill mayong, but why? None of them take any damage.

    If you don't want to shift the outgoing damage they do at least change how fast they swing. If you compare the average auto attack delay between these mobs and Mayong you would be in awe, three seconds to 0.5. How can you expect a difference this big.

    I have tried bringing in a defiler, speccing every haste debuff possible. It just does nothing, this goes back to me asking Gninja/Caith what the caps are on these mobs, or if there is a formula. If there isn't why isn't it just on a buff on the mob so we know everything about it. You shifted from this position in Altar of Malice with Expose Weakness, why not on TLE's. I really don't like the secrecy in mob formulas. I know we can debuff down to -200haste/dps mod from a post from Xeglad in 2013, it's actually been that long since any information has come out.

    Growth:
    So far upon killing growth i'm pretty disappointed that the move or spawn an add script is entirely removed, it basically took the defining part of the script and nuked it away. My suggestion would be to put this move script back in, beef up the adds HP, and make it less about cycling tanks forever. Adds don't exist because fusion one shots them, and curing random dets doesn't really make it feel any different than mischief at the moment.

    Flame:
    Flame doesn't really feel fun. The pillar's you can heal through so we haven't really cared about them, we just stand in them and slowly die due to the named wearing down the tank rotation with its random six swings absorbing Tower of Stone. The adds, which were the true dps check on Fallen Gate; are now just a push over, they are also much like Growth. They don't really exist. The only thing missing now is the curse, which would be fine to put in but give it a much less severe power/hp drain. To Recap: Lower auto damage, buff the adds, buff the pillars.

    Mischief:
    I think this fight is decently tuned but the named once again just hits too hard, you still have rampant CC, the adds are currently trucking people so I now need to bring in not only my plethora of tanks for swaps, but also yet another tank to pick up the vision adds. To recap: I now have six tanks, and eight healers. four bards, four enchanters. I also need a rogue, that leaves three slots for the remaining existing classes, and your class design doesn't give much choice there.

    I question what raid force these were designed around. I have not been spoken to regarding the balance of these mobs yet other players were. To recap: I have been a guild leader/officer of the best guild on TLE since EoF of Fallen Gate, and have gotten the first clear on DOF/KOS/EOF/FD/Avatar. Yet I have not once been consulted ever on class balance/mob balance, with the exception of my thread during SF where raid content was abysmally tuned with once again no actual numbers/parses being asked to be provided. We had a great thing going with the Raid Council situation of having Atan/Davito in it. Now there is zero communication to get these mobs actually working.

    I do not care if you don't want to have the conversation with me, but there are plenty here who can better articulate feedback than me and are easier to talk to, in my guild; that you had relationships with regarding feedback prior.

    If you need any other information, or would like to nerf/fix these once we give another guild an effort/keep attempting the others I understand, but I will NOT be killing these again. It's just a pointless to expect my entire raid to kill a mob for 30 minutes on alts just to get gear in a lot of cases worse than Castle Mistmoore gear.

    To Recap:

    To successfully kill this mob now you need:
    Four Tanks, Guardian or Monk. No other will work, if you run a Paladin or a Bruiser, or a Zerker. Tell them to reroll or bring in an alt.
    Two Troubs, who stack reuse to jcap two players at once, or once again stack yet another two tanks. If you run three dirges now, good luck.
    Multiple Repair Bots, because no matter how good your tanks are at rotating temps/agro one of them will inevitably die to a stun right before a temp.
    Full Resist Adorns, which are incredibly overpowered compared to any other adorn.
    A group of your raid sitting for alts/other players.

    Thanks.
    -Adoninilol
    Leader of Volatile
  2. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    I just wanted to add in Brell during my Fatality days, where it would nuke a tank into being useless for fourty seconds so our solution was to just bring in another tank, which you said was exploiting. Now the situation is bring in more and more tanks.

    I can't stress enough how silly it is to require four tanks, assuming you have the right support, or six if you don't. Four was honestly incredibly hairy, we got kinda lucky with a few random players eating deaths while we got tanks back up. I watched one pull where three of my tanks died within a one second window. One second, for four deaths to go off. How is this in any way realistic. This is including wards/reactives. One shot, debuffed mob.
    [IMG]If you want to keep these mobs within the design of every other encounter, add Battle Weary. That way you are required to absolutely have the BEST dps, and upgrades from gear actually mean something. Getting Dark Orbs, Woushi Charms, etc. etc. I would suggest a timer of 12 minutes for the first round of Battle Weary and put this mobs HP at around 65 Million. 15 for the next. 18 for the Final you are doomed.
    [IMG]
  3. Chrexx Member

    Sometimes it feels like they created the TLE section of the forums so that they have a place to put all of the forum posts they don't care about. Better chance of someone seeing this in the BUG section.

    Because it is a bug, frankly.

    TLDR from Adon's post - The Avatars used to have a script that made it difficult. Now, the devs seem to have gotten rid of the scripts almost completely and instead just replaced it with crazy auto attack damage from the mobs. Growth should have a movement component to the script like it used to (even on FG), and the pillars on Flame should do more damage so that the raid actually has to move away from them. On top of that, the adds that spawn for Growth and Flame should have more HP.
  4. Somedude Active Member

    Adon's feedback is lengthy and accurate.

    I think the core issues come down to:
    1) Mob hitting slightly too hard for the gear and abilities available to us in this expansion
    2) The mobs are hitting way too fast. .5 - .7 second delay on autos

    You simply can't have a mob hitting for 90% of tank's health faster than every second. If you do, then the only way to kill it is bringing 4-6 tanks and using rotations of temps that block all auto attack.

    With the level of the avatars and their buff package, about the best avoidance rate a tank can achieve against them is ~65%.

    It feels these were tuned assuming we would be avoiding 90-95%
  5. Gninja Developer

    I will do a once over on them but I am nervous making any big changes off the cuff. Having said that though, balancing damage output isn't outside the realm of possibility. Once I look it over I'll make a determination and let you guys know.

    Brell is not a good example to use. bringing in more than the normal number of tanks was not what was considered an exploit in that encounter. I will leave it at that as to not get folks riled up about it.

    Thank you for the mostly constructive feedback, it is appreciated.
    Obano and Breanna like this.
  6. Somedude Active Member

    Thanks Sir.

    I do think the damage output needs addressing, but unfortunately if you do just this, it may make them too easy.

    You probably need to up the AoE damage and probably quadruple the health of the adds. Currently the adds literally evaporate. They do hit decent, but typically they die immediately right now.
  7. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Obviously the flag exploit was the main issue, but I will digress. We both know the conversations had at the time.

    Regardless, please keep communication in this thread, i'd prefer to not go to Discord where it is quickly lost in a live time casual chat situation.
  8. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Okay. One Month of killing these; just for all the garbage loot we've been getting to not get updated.

    Imagine if this happened on live? Would you guys do something like this? Or just me/my guild. This is the only time EVER i've seen you guys tell someone that the month of Farming gear is now useless.

    You redid Itemization in SF to include red adorns on easy mode gear/fix the myriad of mistakes. Did you make new ID's or fix the new stuff?

    What about the Initial DoV updates?

    The Drunder gear revamp you let people trade the old gear for the new gear from a merchant, why not now?

    See ToV gear revamps after the Avatar gear debacle then. The Avatar gear between CoE/Skyshrine.

    I'm being told that it's because these items need a new unique ID because it's a TLE. But you've already given all of these items new ID's to begin with as they're all new discos compared to live???

    Boggling.

    Since we're here can I also get the full immunities put back onto the gear that you ripped out due to live? Can we get anything on this server? Thanks.

    So here's what I would like to happen to help alleviate this issue: Make THREE pieces drop per chest instead of two. Otherwise it's as if these Avatars didn't come in until today.

    Thanks.

    Unbelievable.

    Guild Leader of Momentum, the only guild killing your hard end game content; who has a guild full of ******* pissed off players.
  9. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Oh i'd also like to add we haven't seen one robe of Al'Kabor but have seen every other item. Can I get a confirmation it's in game?
  10. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Continuing my feedback from earlier just based on my initial thoughts on the new three:

    Avatar of Valor has Faith Strike. This only really allows me to do roughly 30k actual incoming damage on the avatar. The raid wide is higher but I gotta kill adds, etc. I'm just looking at incoming on the Avatar in ACT. I'm clocking this fight at around 45 minutes since it just heals for a bonkers amount every minute.

    [IMG]

    We had one Fail Effect at the top of the fight (Salve of Truth) so subtract that.

    [IMG]
    You also only get like 3-4 of these per Mistmoore Inner Sanctum Clear. I used 30 in that 6 minute pull. It's just not feasible to get enough of these.

    If I cleared MMIS on cooldown, with my guild alone. I'd only have roughly 30-40 of these orbs. Luckily I had a bunch from alt raids/bot raids. I could also of course train to these in a new zone on a brawler, but is that realistic to expect me to do that for hours on end just to pull this mob 2-3 times? I don't think so.

    What I think would be a great solution is to leave in the script as it is now, fix faith strike. But make these Crystal's unlimited uses. Therefore I can use it on the red text, and on the add. This allows me to keep the script in its current difficulty and still require a certain amount of MMIS clears.

    My only concern is what do you add to this script in RoK/TSO. All of the Avatars so far except Flame are basically the full TSO script. That's just a heroic add instead of a x2 add. So i'm fine with these just being slightly buffed each expansion.

    Otherwise the fight feels fine, add HP, named HP, named outgoing, etc. It's just not feasible to use get enough orbs, and the mob is healing for 7% of its HP every minute. Either way, we would've killed it tonight if the aforementioned fixes were in.

    Fear:
    Despawned, couldn't pull. Tragic. Will update when it pops at some point?

    War:
    Was too easy, it was depopped after we got it to 40% and battleweary phase three kicked in. Pretty sure we could've killed it before battleweary if we really tried. We were kinda going in Turtle, we could've five healered it and just meme burned it in six minutes.

    The aoes were doing nothing, the add dog did nothing. Was pretty easy to get it to 40% first pull having zero timers/script knowledge; would've been a first pull for sure if we had no battle weary. I do like the idea of having a Avatar you need to just straight burn in a certain timer. I could say you could leave it as is if you leave in battle weary.

    /shrug.

    Overall:
    A bit bummed that once again you guys didn't just chat with me about these mobs coming into game. We're the only people killing these mobs. Not to mention you're doing things like putting in TSO mechanics based on items we just can't really get right now. I know if this mob had the EoF script I could just orb him at the start and turn/burn and kill lions. I know if it was the RoK scripts I orb the adds. I know if it had the TSO script I would need 200+ orbs a kill. How do you not realize it's EoF and you just simply can't add the RoK/TSO script.

    War being depopped was pretty rude to me, if a mob is erroneously popped. Remove it when it pops at server launch, don't leave it up and let me pull it just to depop it. Not to mention Fear was up, got de-popped after some live fix that has nothing to do with us then War was depopped and Fear wasn't repopped.

    This is coupled with the aforementioned reason's Valor is just unkillable. This entire update was un-tested, and feels like a general afterthought.

    Loot:
    [IMG]
    Still just..... tragic.

    The power proc is still worse than in combat power regen. The casting speed isn't enough to rely on it, and the negative hate gain just sucks.

    The Bonus Potency/Crit is cool but the other two blue stats are still just garbage. Did anyone actually look at this gear or did you guys just run the script again and bump it all up to base RoK stats?

    Like why put all this effort into putting these mobs into game, just to not spend even 10-15 minutes hand changing the loot. It's just bonkers in my opinion.

    Regardless, thanks for adding three more. I know i'm incredibly negative, but I just want things to be the best they can; and functioning upon going into game.
  11. Chrexx Member

    Just a thought on the Crystal of Dark Energy. Would be cool if you made it so that you get a certain # of these from completing the new hunter's quests that come out in 2 weeks. Major issue with it right now is that it's not really feasible to get enough of these, but this could be a way to fix it, while also encouraging more people to get out and do groups.

    Just spitballin here
  12. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Considering these mobs pop daily, I'm not comfortable with going out and farming these stupid crystal's every single day.

    None of the other guilds can even live through his auto attacks. I don't mind leaving this mob indefinitely until TSO when I can farm crystal's.
  13. Sixgauge Active Member

    The devs have spent enough time releasing and tweaking mobs that are only killed by a single guild. They should be focused on making sure the mid-expansion content is released in a polished and challenging state with good gear, especially for scouts.
  14. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Gninja, I don't know what else to say here.

    [IMG]
    This is yet another mob that has a profession ability % healing the mob that makes it virtually un-killable. This is a second mob you have released on the TLE server this update that is healing a incomprehensible amount from profession abilities. To recap, two mobs have been released broken, the other was accidentally released. You guys were better off just once overing this with me in a quick casual discord PM on the 14th and then releasing this on the 28th.

    It's been since 2017, Fallen Gate; that i've reported that things like Faith Strike are healing mobs a % based hit due to your live changes. This is still persisting, we even talked about this on Fallen Gate on Munzok regarding Tap Veins. I'm unsure of what more I can do here to provide consistent usable feedback to make these mobs go in at a usable state.

    The mob itself's Auto damage seemed fine. The adds could use an easy 30% Max Health reduction, unless your plan is for us to only kill this mob, then fine. I'll wear chokers in two weeks when midcontent drops this and call it a day, and kill it on my raid days because I know guilds with 60k less raidwide on Mayong have no chance.

    I found my brigand and guardian soloing this named to be super exciting for the raid force as a whole. It's fun to see two adds run at my raid and for my mages to cast encounter nukes for twenty minutes to be very exciting.

    Either way: this mob would've died tonight assuming it didn't heal up due to the flippant ignoring of three years of feedback and battleweary.

    As a side note: Growth is about a 10 minute longer encounter than Mischief, and a five minute longer encounter than Flame. I would appreciate if you nuke that mob down about 25-30% HP from what it's at now. That way I don't have to hear the sighs from my raiders as well to go blow up that mob just to not get a staff. Instead just to get the same disappointing loot that's worse than heroic gear (even after the "fixes") Unless once again, these mobs are designed for one raid /shrug.

    As of now I won't pull any of the new avatars you've added, Valor or Fear. It's just a blatant waste of my time and the twenty-three other members I have in my guild.

    I welcome pulling these mobs when these are fixed and the feedback I provide is taken into consideration.

    I hate to be negative, but at this point I don't know what else will work. It appears as if being a nice guy doesn't work, nor does just non nonchalantly providing feedback. How can I better provide feedback? I understand i'm not a exactly "positive" guy to talk to; nor am I "nice". But if you keep planning on putting in this content for one guild to kill, and six guilds to pull and wipe to all day; talk to Atan. He can provide feedback on a less angry level that will ensure it's killed by us and possibly another guild.

    Do I need to message you suggestions? Do I need to offer my guild for testing? Do I need to provide a list of previous TLE Errors?

    Either way, i'll leave these mobs up until RoK if I have to. I'm not bothering to pull mobs that are a waste of my/my guilds time.

    -Adoninilol
    Leader of Momentum, First Clear DOF/KOS/Mara/EOF/Avatars.
  15. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Scout gear is fine.

    Also this entire server sans Avatars has been catered to the lowest denominator. Don't come into my thread and suggest that my content is a waste of time just because I went into yours and told you that Battlegrounds were pointless.
  16. Adoninilol Well-Known Member

    Timers:

    These were adjusted without telling us. The average time between Avatar spawns has randomly increased by twelve hours without notification. Why? Why not tell us once again.

    Communication.
  17. Nuhvohk Active Member

    *cries in 0.8 AE Auto*
  18. Nathaniel New Member

    We currently have no plans to be killing Avatars, but man, it sucks that you guys are having to experience this content in this manner. I sincerely hope things can be fixed to make the fights realistic and more enjoyable.
  19. Grundlestixittoya Member

    I dont really mind the growth fight as is. It is long but I think that will change as we obtain more gear from midcontent and the upgraded avatar loot. The two new avatars though are a different story. Valor cannot be done because the number of those items needed and Fear if battle weary was removed may be possible but only by our guild because of the amount of HP the adds have along with the insane heals
  20. Hydraulics Member

    Not to detract from the point of this thread but there is viable scout gear in every slot that doesn’t have ae auto. More quality scout loot is coming with midcontent. Look beyond the fabled sets.

    Back to avatars - it was a nice surprise that we got additional avatars before midcontent but it was equally disappointing that they were not properly balanced or tested. Thanks for your attention and I hope they are fixed soon so we can continue pulls.
    Zenji likes this.

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