Attn non-depressive Warlocks

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Anaogi, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. DoomDrake Well-Known Member

    AoE is possible to get via war runes - wild swings (35% AoE) and other one with 22% AoE and 17MA or something... Also I just got as a rare drop from BB AS - charm clicky with +300 PoT on the click (blue book looking thing). I have notice that AMOD and DPS white adorns started drops of AS in TOT as well.
    With all above said in this tread - I am kind of did not see notice that warlock should be pushing for 2k Crit Bonus at any cost or this changed?
  2. Koko Well-Known Member

    Yup, I was off by an order of magnitude. Calculation re-performed with realistic values (correct green gems + no vitality through strength prestige).

    243.3 - Weapon Rating
    7 - DPS multiplier
    2.25 - MA multiplier
    2.25 - Haste multiplier
    2 - AA multiplier
    2.71 - Primary stat multiplier
    1.55 - S.WDB multiplier (Fabled gear + 3x cyans)
    = 243.3 * 7 * 2.25^2 * 2 * 2.71 * 1.55
    = 72,432
    +1 flurry ~ 724 pre-critical EncDPS (assuming 100% hit rate)

    AFK spamming Acid approaches an ability/time rate of 1.11~1.33 depending on ping (lower is better). Actual ability rate will be a bit higher, but will fluctuate depending on how effective the player is at pushing buttons & the encounter. Some skills have higher than 1:1 scaling (e.g. AE skills with more than 3 targets, Toxic Assault, Caustic Detonation), some cast faster (e.g. instant cast Apocalypse/Rift), etc.

    The returns on ability modifier are expected to be the ability casting rate * ability modifier gained, or 588 * 1.1~1.3 = 652 ~ 782. There are a few assumptions;
    *assumes AFK spam of Acid (does not include Toxic Assault, AE, etc.)
    *assumes that elements don't matter (e.g. physical damage is 'just as good' as noxious)
    *assumes that CB is constant throughout the encounter (i.e. returns ability mod on burst isn't boosted)

    Someone will insist that ability modifier is better for "mimicry" or some other nonsense, and while true, I don't consider this a dealbreaker. Similarly, while FC+burst does help ability modifier, I don't consider it to be overwhelming. The EncDPS returns of haste and ability modifier are similar, and I expect values of 651~724 (90-100% hit rate) and 652 ~782 (1.1~1.3 returns/second) to be realistic.

    tl;dr haste is a lot better than I thought it was, they're actually fairly close. The largest reason to not to go the haste route is the rewards for dealing non-physical damage e.g. ignore a few scripts, higher mit debuffs, more +% damage, etc. Haste is viable (it is 'close'), but I don't think it is better.
  3. Vasco Active Member

    What's a P. Adorn?

  4. Koko Well-Known Member

  5. Anaogi Well-Known Member


    Can somebody break that down in english please? I'm more confused now then when I originally posted this thread.
  6. DoomDrake Well-Known Member

    If you asking about double cast
    Breaks down as following
    a) Neck 16.8% double cast (uplifting fury, reward for achievement - 11 maldura quests/27 on-land quests)
    b) cloak 19.6% double cast (on any fable cloak with double cast)
    c) belt 19.6% double cast (on any fabled belts with double cast)
    - this comes at mark 56%
    d) purple rune of double casting - 6% double cast (shoulders)
    e) rune of superiority - 5% double cast (cloak)
    f) 3x green adorns - x2% for total 6% double cast (neck/fingers)
    - this totals at mark - 73%
    g) skills AA (dragon tree) - 5% double cast
    h) spell casting speed 200 - add about 10% (?) double cast
    - you end up with about 88% double cast
    Also there are plenty of wrist pieces with Soulthrist clicky - this will chop off 20% of your HP and give you +24% double cast and on each hostile spell you will have 5% chance to loose another 15% of health
  7. Anaogi Well-Known Member

    I wasn't. I'm trying to figure out how the rest comes together. The autoattack stuff may as well be a foreign language (and I'm still not clear how that's going to get me past the 10-15 mil level to 20-30) and I'm still struggling with casting order. Plus I'm really wondering about gear choices for priorities other than doublecast.
  8. DoomDrake Well-Known Member

    Well I been in your boat about 1 week ago ... from "warlock guru" I got this picture
    You need hit soft caps and get around following stats
    100k AMOD (or at least 85k+)
    200% spell cast (don't go far above that or you will be cursed condemned etc. :))
    100% reuse
    60+ recovery
    200 attack speed
    100 AoE attack
    120+ Mutli attack
    600 DPS
    70+ Double Cast (this one comes fairly easy - neck, belt, cloak, rune in the shoulders, AA and 1 green adorn with double cast take you easy to 75%)
    On the side it nice to get as much as possible SWDB
    From my humble attempt to meet those goal I think I got pretty close to all marks (save DPS .. .need about 100). You can look on my gear on EQ2U - char name Dreamtwister (I am unique and the only one with such nick :))
  9. Yards Well-Known Member

    Its really easy to gear yourself this expansion. Here is a quick rundown. Keep the belt and cloak from last expansion if you have it as this has both sda and flurry on it. Don't get any of the armor with mit on it, most of the better armor does not have ability mod on it. Reforge into ability mod on all your armor you get better ability mod reforging into it rather then it being on it already (shoulders, hands, feet should have swdb on them). Use the quested sda/flurry neck and get whatever jewelry has the best proc returns on it like cb/pot. reforge into ability mod on every piece possible then work on your melee stats after. Use the ability mod / swdb green adorns and do not use the tank sda greens as this is just dumb. If you are short on ae auto you can get some purple adorns with 15% ae auto on them while only giving up minimal stats. Try to get the 8% accuracy primordial adorn for your forearms. That's really all there is to gearing yourself I'm not going to go into how to play a warlock because I feel like their is already a lot of discussions on that.
  10. Azian Well-Known Member

    Did they add ability mod to the tankish greens sometime after ToT launched? I don't recall them having that stat at the beginning but maybe I'm just not remembering correctly.

    Anyway, after reading Koko's comments above I dug into my shared bank where I have a plethora of AS and heroic greens tucked away. I grabbed several of the "tankish" ones with double cast on them and compared. (I had the SWDB/Amod ones equipped).

    Depending upon the tier of the green, it's pretty much a wash on everything we'd care about other than +6 DC vs. +50ish SWDB for a set of three. I ended up keeping the SWDB ones on but also kept several of the tankish ones in my bags. One thing I did like about the tankish ones is that the +max health helped offset what I was losing by using the soulsiphon wrist. If I find myself dying a lot in a group, I may try to swap a couple of those in as needed first before clicking off the buff.
  11. Koko Well-Known Member

    For anyone that is interested in doing the math themselves to compare the two;

    %AA * [(1 + WDB'/100)/(1 + WDB/100)] + %Spell * [(AmodR + SDA'/100)/(AmodR + SDA/100)] = %Total = 100%
    %AA = normalized %EncDPS from auto attacks
    %Spell = normalized %EncDPS from spells that can doublecast
    WDB = S.WDB from 'state 1'
    WDB' = S.WDB from 'state 2'
    SDA = doublecast from 'state 1'
    SDA = doublecast from 'state 2'
    AmodR = 1 ~ 1.5 depending on % of SDA EncDPS that can SDA, i.e. 1.5 implies everything is capped, 1.0 implies no ability modifier

    Setting the equations equal
    %AA + %Spell * [(AmodR + ([SDA']/100)/(AmodR + SDA/100)] = %AA * [(1 + ([WDB']/100)/(1 + WDB/100)] + %Spell

    Solving for %AA with substitution %AA = 100% - %Spell
    %AA - %AA * [(1 + ([WDB']/100)/(1 + WDB/100)] = %Spell - %Spell * [(AmodR + ([SDA']/100)/(AmodR + SDA/100)]
    %AA * ([(1 + ([WDB']/100)/(1 + WDB/100)] - 1) = %Spell * ([(AmodR + ([SDA']/100)/(AmodR + SDA/100)] - 1)
    %AA * ([(1 + ([WDB']/100)/(1 + WDB/100)] - 1) = (100% - %AA) * ([(AmodR + ([SDA']/100)/(AmodR + SDA/100)] - 1)
    %AA / (100% - %AA) = ([(AmodR + ([SDA']/100)/(AmodR + SDA/100)] - 1) / ([(1 + ([WDB']/100)/(1 + WDB/100)] - 1)

    Plug in your values for SDA, WDB, and solve for %AA. If your %AA EncDPS is higher than the solved value, the WDB adornments are superior. If it is less, the SDA adornments are superior. For those who are simply curious (or lazy!) the value will be around 8~10% AA EncDPS, depending on your other stats. Keep in mind this calculation ignores the benefits of free strikethrough, %hp, and %mit - which while have less applications on a mage, aren't exactly useless either.

    For me, SDA 'wins'. I could see WDB being superior if you're failing to hit buttons (raid lag, feel you bro).

    Anywho, gotta apologize to this guy:
    Ranged Foci can be infused for elemental damage, I was under the impression they couldn't be.

    Therefore, haste is very comparable to ability modifier, and which is superior likely boils down cast order which is dependent on encounter duration. The gains are otherwise interchangeable at low values of haste. Cheers.
    Eles and Zeee like this.
  12. Anaogi Well-Known Member

    OK, Koko, love your work, but if I need a damn spreadsheet to play this class, either I need to just switch to EVE or give up and play my assassin. I'm tired of warlocks being overly complicated and having "goalposts" whose achievement feels like an exercise in anti-submarine warfare.

    So, yeah, thanks, but I think I have my real answer now. :(
  13. Eles Well-Known Member

    There is a spreadsheet and was made by Nune on EQ2 flames for warlocks. Very interesting job if you wanna learn a bit more.
  14. MrWashek Member

    EQ flames still running? Thought it was dead.
  15. Anaogi Well-Known Member

    I have, and that's the point. If I need a damned spreadsheet to play the class I'm done with it.
  16. Rubick Well-Known Member

    Any class could use a spreadsheet if you want to maximize efficiency. However, sorcerers are definitely the wrong subclass if you have such an extreme hatred for spreadsheets.
  17. DoomDrake Well-Known Member

    All information is awesome (special thank you to Koko!) Here is come sort of Dr. Evil question ... does spell contribute much in overall DPS? - Sure the do for AoE fight but for ST?
    In ToT how should looks damage distribution like?
    PB-Unda-TA-DA-Chains-TCl probably easy comes on the top? (all this AA)
    From the spells perspective - it looks like make sense maintain only 3 Dark Siphoning, Pyre and Acid and if any gap happens drop dumpfire pets (Acid Rain, Infestation, Netherlord) and if 180increments up fire Rift/Apoc ... Okey I am guilty of spaming Cata when even it's up (for faster increments built)
    Occasionally use of Devastation blast, Bewildment (sp) and occasional refresh Gift and E. Damnation
    How expect of contribution of ranged weapons and procs (Early Adv, Essence Lich, Anguish etc.)?
    Other thing I am curious ...
    On the single target - what is more efficient - built 180 and then drop Apoc/Ridt/TA or keep spamming TA as soon as it up? or somewhere in between?
  18. Koko Well-Known Member

    Spreadsheets aren't required, but they certainly help in comparing X to Y on a numeric basis. If it helps, I consider assassins (and most non-spell foci classes for that matter) more computationally intensive than warlocks.

    Then again, I've used spreadsheets for Legends of Norrath, Magic the Gathering, & Pokemon...
  19. Lare Active Member

    100% agree with this said it a 100 times now. What Kono is saying is kinda right and kinda wrong not the numbers nothing is constant.

    Don't put the green SDA adornments on your going to reduce your dps ESP if you raid. His numbers are based in being in a vacuum if you play your toon right. Its about learning what to reforge and how to dps.

    Don't spam acid its no longer the be and end all! I use acid as a filler spell, fights don't last long enough for it to count.

    its not that you don't cast acid or

    LMAO Koto you have no idea what your talking about! Locs are spike dps not constant dps you need to show us your parses like the one yards been showing in another thread on the mage forums to acutally grasp what we are saying!
  20. DoomDrake Well-Known Member

    Lare what your suggested attack order? (I have noticed that Morgrim speced out of Unda I speced out of CB into POT) Is Unda still worth while keep it? (which right distance it still hit hard from what I see and can't be blocked by stifle)
    For AoE I normally run this
    On pull - precast Gift/E. Damnation/Darkness (just for heck of it) - hit pack with Dark Siphoning from max distance (and turn wand auto attack on) once pack closer hit it with Cata/Unda/Rift/Blast by now I am pretty high on increments to fire Apoc with some time reduction in casting... Absolution/Nebula kind of fillers Cata spam as soon as it up and so is RIft - once I am at 180 and RIft down - hit pack with Caustic Detonation (basically use as much and as fast as I can my PBAoE - green AoE (except for Apoc) just fillers and of course fire DA as soon as it up
    For ST
    Same precast but instead of darkness - aura of pain - Dark Siph, PB-Chains-TClap-Acid-Pyre-Dumbfire pets (priority). Once I am at 180 fire FC chain with PB-Apoc-Rift-TA-Chains-Tclap ... Also keep hitting on background while it refreshed with Eci skulls, DA and Unda. I have time on 1 extra lose of increments in between 2 FC (normally just fire SB-Apoc-Rift-FHS-TA
    Anything I am missing?