ATTENTION DEVS: What the HECK did you do to Vyemm!!!

Or dissolutioned?
Sorry I am very bored and ran out of interesting threads to read.

t6 was my fav for broken raid zones... i think we got enough winterblight trash to equip every druid on the server at least 3 times over... godking, yay farm eyes for weeks (before they updated the drop rate and loot) just to zone in and have the zone crash after the gnoll capt... DMP nuff said on that zone...
now in t7 tarinax seems broken, adds don't spawn after first pull and his soul eviceration don't do much of anything...
vyemm could be done in t7 legendary gear easy... gear really isn't the issue with the encounter, its the placement/strat...
labs is really an easy zone minus vyemm/alzid... first time we went in there our average lvl was about 67/68, we killed everything cept the first named trio (the bugged on us randomly fearing ppl 2 rooms away while we were buffing), the gorg thingy, and vyemm (took a couple wacks at him to see what he'd do)... even with having to fight him and alzid at the same time 80% of your success chance comes on the pull, the rest is just keeping the frontal from wipeing the healers (alot easier without the rubbermade walls)...
DT the first 3 named are really **** (goo dragon is rough first pull but that it), the last 2 are harder than anything in any other instanced zones (well since the warder has been nerfed, and not counting a broken venny, and the mino went on vacation i think)... but the difficulty with tarinax at the moment is just that hes orange (and SK immune), there really is no script to work out (we haven't beat him yet but thats just exicution on our part, same as vyemm took us 3 weeks to beat)...

I don't need to play "guess who" as it's clearly the guilds who face it first who discover these problems. So what? It's a null argument. You discover buggy mobs and report them then they get fixed so you can kill them. That has no bearing whatsoever on the context of what I'm talking about. Why? Because your mobs are bugged then you get the bugs fixed. As I said, that's a world of difference from getting a mob's difficulty hiked up after you found it to be a cakewalk and discovered the rewards. One was accidentally broken, the other was working as intended until you guys decided everyone following you needed a nerf. One is unintentional and affects everyone on a fair playing field, the other only affects the people who you're trying to keep behind you. It's like the raid guilds think they're James Bond and are pressing the "oil slick" button on their dashboard.
If you could report a mob being too easy, at risk of losing the reward and having to do it again at its new "appropriate difficulty" then maybe your argument would hold water, but as it stands, it doesn't, and the result of your increasing the difficulty of these mobs AFTER you've done them just makes for deeper problems for SOE and the wider gaming community with increasing gaps in ability (read: equipment gained) between hardcore and non hardcore guilds.
Sorry if this offends but this whole attitude comes across as smug elitism and it doesn't make good business sense for SOE to pander to such a small minority how they do.
That might sound completely negative. It's not meant to. I have great respect for raiding guilds who achieve great things, and of course they should be the first to obtain the great loot and see the uber zones. BUT they shouldn't then try to put obstacles in the way of everyone else who might follow on. I've much more respect for a semi-casual guild who takes on a beefed up mob with semi fabled armour and prevails against all the odds through skill, than for a hardcore guild who sails through it in easy mode then gets its difficulty increased for everyone else.
The real skilled players in this game aren't the hardcore guilds. The real ability is in the guilds who face these mobs when they're a tough challenge. Hardcore guilds might think they have the skills, but a good proportion of the time they just have the gear and an easy ride.
Sour grapes? No. I'm not bitter that other guilds progress, good luck to them. I'd just like to think that a mob might be at the same difficulty when we get to it, instead of someone not playing fair and getting it adjusted to hinder other people's chances.
If my semi raiding guild in their mostly legendary gear beats a hard mode mob you guys waltzed through on easy mode in full fabled then my guild members have ten times the skill of yours. That might sound obnoxious but the only way to prove it wrong is to play on an even playing field, which you guys keep messing up so it'll never be tested.
Message Edited by markdevox on 05-17-2006 05:11 PM

That post is gunna spark some angers!!! Lock it quick!!!

Yeah but ain't it the truth?

Your trying to use a strawman argument here. Your implying that High end guilds are out "to get" people and that were all evil and want to see the casuals suffer while we laugh all the to the Fabled Bank with our bags full of Fabled loot. This is simply not the case.
Your assertion that is it is completely different is false. YOU never have to deal with all the problems that face the 1st raiders that do these zones, the so called "casuals" always get the easy street with bug free and working/itemized raid zones.
Can you honestly stand their and say that the high end guilds are somehow leaps and bounds above the casuals because they killed 1 easy raid mob and got at most 2 pieces of loot. Are you honestly trying to argue that those 2 piece of loot lead to the encounter being made "trivial" next time we fight it? that is laughable to the extreme.
Your accusation and assertion that High End guilds ask for mob difficulty increases SOLEY to "screw" the casuals and prevent them from accessing the same content is ridiculous in the extreme and you have absolutely zero evidence to back this up.
Your the one that sounds like you have sour grapes, because the "evil hardcores' came and ruined your fun.

And the real skill is in the guilds who face it with legendary gear? HELLO MCFLY how do you think all those guilds got geared up with stuff in the 1st place, with all that fabled gear they were farming from super easy mobs? We put just as much blood and sweat into the raiding game as any casual guild and any notion otherwise is hilarious.
You forget DoF so quickly, I remember our main tank dumping all his t5 fabled for cobalt mined from a rock, no sorry bud, but I have no sympathy for you if you think that you have it "hard".

The fact that you get to fight every encounter bug free, with finished loot tables is worth having to sometimes fight a slightly harder mob. And your argument works backwards also, for every easy mob that was made hard, I can name 2 that have been gimped to oblivion because the "uber skilled" casual guilds like yours complained that it was too hard.

I have to say that you betray your inexperience and disregard for the game with your posts on this thread markdevox, and you say that your not bitter about other guilds progressing beyond your guild, but thats obviously what this is about. Point blank, if your guild was full of the most skilled players in the game then you would be able to handle this encounter in every single form that its occured in(except maybe the second version with the incredible aes) no problem. Lets continue to use Vyemm as an example. In his first form, none of his aes worked. Lots of people, of course, pm'd developers to point out this problem, and eventually they sorted it out(except they made the aes too powerful i think in the aforementioned second version). Do you think that these first guilds in there should have just stayed quiet and let the boss mob of the dungeon continue to be broken so that everyone could kill it easily, or do you think they did the right thing by reporting the problem so that this encounter could be worked on to be brought up to its intended difficulty? If you think they shouldve kept quiet, you have no regard for the long term life of eq2, as the challenge of the game is what keeps people interested.


Its not even an issue of gear, its all about the strat. Vyemm doesnt even drop anything good really, lol. SOE has catered to the casual player in this tier to an unprecedented level, and I'm about tired of hearing complaining about the difficulty of mobs and the big bad raid guilds trying to mess with the casual raiders. You need to get your players to farm some of the gear in instances and do the claymore quests and you'll find that you should be able to handle anything in this xpac pretty much with the right organization.

Everquest 2 doesnt have the player base of a game like WoW, and thus SOE doesnt have the financial resources they would like to throw into art and item design and testing encounters, so they rely quite a bit on the high end community to help them sort out the end game in each tier. The members of the hardcore guilds that you disdain so vocally are in fact working very hard to make eq2 a rewarding, quality mmorpg. Unfortunatly, most people cant get away from their narrow viewpoint long enough to see the big picture.

I think you should look to your leadership as the source of your problems with this encounters, and spend time talking about the encounter with your guild as opposed to wasting time posting here dumping on high quality guilds.

Equus
Paladin, Eternal Chaos

Aye, I have to agree, up until Halls of Seeing...absolutely NOTHING in T7 except maybe a contested or two was nearly as difficult as T6 was.
Just did Vyemm again today. Our casual 3 day a week raiding guild downed it on the 3rd try. First pull someone was being a dork and got the raid hit by the frontal. Second pull just went bad. 3rd pull everything went flawless with perfect positioning.
As far as I can see the Vyemm encounter is still fairly easy.
Tarinax, got to him for the first time last week. Got him to 50% just trying to learn the encounter on the first pull. Had to leave early otherwise I'm sure we'd have done him on the first time we'd ever seen him. Granted probably more than 3 pulls. Still that's a whole snotnose easier than PPTR, Gates of Ahken, Courts of Al'Afaz bosses.
Hell, K'dal in T5 was harder than Vyemm or Tarinax.
The only reason I can think of for why these mobs are so easy is that they are quest mobs, so SoE wants casual guilds to be able to kill them.
I have to agree with the above poster. So far, T7 caters to the casual raiders with not a whole lot for the high end raiders. Well Mutagenic Outcast and that Water Snake thing are pretty brutal.
Regards,
Croaker

idk no fight in gates except maybe adofo was as challenging as vyemm/alzid together. Gates really felt like an extremely easy zone. And courts was a total joke except for sunchild and black queen i really dunno why people think this was harder than tier7 raids, it might be your guild improving. Court raid mobs for the most part didnt do anything and if they did it was just ae jousting. HOS fights are all sub-vyemm difficulty except the prenerf warder, nightblood, and possibly the new venekor script (havent seen it yet). K'dal was far easier than vyemm, i think k'dal was killed its first or 2nd day live on many servers and was np farm status for several guilds per server once peopel figured out what was going on. That snake in dt isnt even that bad because it dies so fast. I'd say vyemm/alzid if fought together (and i think thats what they want us to do based on earlocusts post!) is about where i'd think it should be for raid difficulty with regards to kos and the prior tiers. Vyemm/alzid when fought together is certainly harder than that joke boss of gates and imo harder than the vilucidae in lyceum. Some of the apparent ease of tier7 is probably due to higher raid dps than sony had intended, which might be changing.

i'd say the real prize mobs of the expansion are mutagenic and the 3 princes, whereas in tier6 the hard mobs were in instances. And between mutagenic and 3 princes i'd say 3 princes is probably the most well thought out encounter of the expansion and requires the most thinking, while mutagenic requires better reflexes and low lag :smileyhappy: I will yield tho that nothing in this expansion (not even mo) is up to par with difficulty when compared to djinn master and perhaps pedestal as well. It'd be interesting to know what encounters lyndro designed in kos, perhaps hes skipped it and is working on stuff for eof.

imo if lyndro made 3princes he'd borrow illucide strats and have the pedestal "twist" to it which would just own

and mutagenic would only die if you mezzed a ring of body swarmers around it perfectly positioned!


Message Edited by rozakk on 05-18-2006 02:38 AM

Khalan!!!! You forgot...

Stepping into Venekor's lair, getting teleported to random locations inside the lair, accidentally spawning ^^^x4 golems, Venekor engages wipes out raid. Ok, revive, that's that you think.

Wrong! Teleported back into Venekor's lair with no buffs and revive sickness and get /owned. Revive, Teleport, Owned, Revive, Teleport, Owned, Drop Raid, Teleport Anyway, Owned.

Then when you finally manage to figure out how to force the teleport to stop working (handy tricks with Brawlers and /camp for the rest of the raid), you run back to Venekor's lair only to find the doorway perma locked. Errr...

Now you try to lag through the door in hopes of somehow starting the Venekor script and unlocking the doors. Nope! Not happening. Buh Bye, see you next week.

Ah what fun that was. I must have died 5 times before I could camp out with the rest of the raid. Ishbu posted about this somewhere around here, was pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] funny. Thankfully, we all spilled our blood and trashed our armor to finally get this fixed for the casual raiders. :smileywink:


Descartin, 70 Templar
Fortitude of Kithicor
Destroyer of Vyemm 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 etc (a new fight each week!!!)

I think the point is some guilds have been whining too much, not all of them. In Vyemm's current state I don't think anyone can say he's too easy.
He's easily harder then Sunchild, Godking, All of Gates save Adofo, All of courts save Black Queen. We always had problems with Black Queen because we only brought 5 healers to t6 raids (so 1 teleport hurts) but Sunchild was pretty straight forward. For T5 he's harder then Darathar (easy) and any instanced mob. I know our strategy needs tweaking but I have no doubt in my mind about his difficulty.
About whining maybe not all guilds but some guilds definitely have been whining too much about things being easy. Maybe it's that our guild has gotten weaker instead of stronger over time, who knows. But with difficulty of Vyemm I'm certain he doesn't need to be any harder then he is now. I also realize that the hardcore raiding guilds test out a lot of stuff with going through broken encounters, but I'm also not naive enough to think you're doing it for the greater good of the game. You're doing it for your own fun and trying to get glory through game firsts competing with each other. Friendly competition when it's healthy. However, some people have been complaining stuff is too easy when they get their updates that don't want anyone else to get their updates. To keep the mystique of their toys and keep them only for themselves so they can feel above others. If it's fair and mobs haven't been made harder that's fine imo. If you're whining on the forums asking for mobs to be beefed up to keep the mystique of your new toys that's another thing all together. That's what I believe some are doing. It's the same reason people ********* others on quested mobs and its those people whining I don't appreciate.
Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 05-18-2006 10:35 AM

Phew, thought I was on my own being savaged by uber people for a mo. :smileyhappy:
I'm with Mike on this only I said the same with a lot more unnecessary waffle. :smileyhappy:

I agree with most of your post mike, but let me clarify what I meant about high end guilds testing encounters etc. Of course, top guilds initially go out and try to kill things first for fun and recognition, thats the point. What I was saying is that when these same guilds find problems with encounters, the reason they pm devs or /report these problems isnt to keep anyone down, theyre just trying to keep the loot vs. difficulty balance in place. Every single person who plays this game should want the same. For the most part, when people say that guilds are reporting problems with mobs to mess with other raiders, they are just being paranoid.
Also, I really dont want them to make this encounter any harder, I just dont want them to make it easier either. There is nothing impossibly difficult about this fight as it is, and I would much rather see guilds(including mine) struggle against a worthy opponent than sleepwalk through mickey mouse dungeons.
Markdevox, I didnt mean to call you a noob, I guess my post was too scathing. When I referred to your inexperience, I was talking about your views on other guilds and your own players, not your opinion of the mob or your guilds proficiency in game.
Equus
Paladin, Eternal Chaos

If all top guilds wanted to keep reward/difficulty balance in check, they would not have farmed relic. Many top guilds did farm relic, hence your argument that they do it to keep the game balanced is false. Fact is, some top guilds waited until they had full slots of relic before all reporting the bug.

That is a perfect demonstration of ensuring those that follow face a harder path than them.

Id love to know what guilds you think farmed till Complete relic equipped cuz thats just rediculous.

A) Only 1 Character in the Entire Game had a Full Set of relic when the dust settled, this was confirmed by Gallentie, so your mass exageration is incorrect. In addition he stated that the actual amount of relic farmed was negligible.
B) Casual AND Hardcore guilds Farmed relic both, trying to make it sound like ONLY the hardcore guilds did it is False.
C) it is a Logical Falicy that since some hardcore guilds farmed relic, therefore all hardcore guilds farmed relic. That is a false statement.
D) Fact is, lots of top guilds reported the bug as soon as they found it, otherwise it wouldnt have been spotted.
E) For every Hardcore Guild who didn't report Relic Farming, I bet there is a casual guild who didn't report it either, so your assumption that only hardcore guilds kept the information to themselves is also false.
F) Stop trying to paint Hardcore guilds all with the same brush.

I'd have to disagree on difficulty of Lord Vyemm.
If SoE continues to allow Vyemm to be pulled seperate from Alzid then...
Black Queen and Sunchild were both significantly harder during T6 than Solo Vyemm.
Adolfo would be significantly harder than Solo Vyemm, and that final "boss" of Gates would be roughly par or a tad harder.
The 2 named Djinn fight and the 3 last "boss" fights in PPTR would be significantly harder than Solo Vyemm. Hell the Ciritkna fight is harder than Solo Vyemm and we killed Ciritkna our second time in PPTR. We killed Vyemm the first time we SAW him because he came solo.
At least with Alzid Vyemm is a bit of a challenge for a casual guild. With raiding only 3 days a week, we're down to rotating certain raids. Or combining two raid zones into one night (4-5 hours of raiding).
Hell, even with Alzid, Black Queen, Adolfo, and the Djinn above were all harder than Vyemm + Alzid.
Personally I always though Lord Vyemm should be a measuring stick for how good a guild was and as a guage for a guild to know where they stand in T7 raiding capabilities. Up until recently he's been a complete and total walkover though. At least now there's a small bit of challenge in the encounter.
Being a casual guild with some 35-40 odd raiders that get rotated gear is spread fairly thin. So don't even try to say I'm in a hardcore guild and just want to make it harder for other guilds. Pfffft. Hell we don't even have a regular BRIGAND. /cry.
Regards,
Croaker

Nope. Not anymore. It's completely impossible now.

Seems the devs took it apon themselves to yet again change the Vyemm encounter this week, weve been killing him now for ohh 2 months I guess. Tonight though the zone was a complete mess, Vyemm/Prime would just randomly run through the zone and whipe the raid, normaly we would pull Alzid and kill him solo then Vyemm I know others do it the opposite but we would just dps him down but now at 13% health he insta heals to 33% no way around it no matter how you load the dps his script is a endless loop of 13 to 33. Personaly if they want you to fight both instead of the constant changes to how and what you can possibly do with the encounter they just need to link them and be done with it. I enjoy nothing more then being forced into the devs Vision of how they want the encounter to be killed no possible way to do it the way the players want by working on there own strategies apart from what every other guild may be doing, now its everyone is pigeon holed into one way the devs way and if you figure away around that then, wait till next week because you know the dev who runs this zone will surely figure a new way to make you waste hours on end working through the final encoutner of the zone its sickening. A good run you can clear the zone in 2hrs maybe 3 with some bad pulls but double that because they decide to retool the encounter no thanks you can kma if you the devs think that craps fun everyweek.