I think what he meant was that it would not be directly unbalancing towards woodworkers because there are other classes that use ammo and therefore they would still be able to sell ammo..
Ah, yes ok thanks for clarifying. If that's what he meant then yes I totally agree with him. Bottom line I'd say is, it's wrong to make Ranger's pay for their dps.
Sure. All arrow conversations take place as though rangers are the only ones that use arrows/ammo. I was pointing out that it's not unfair to woodworkers for the Ranger issue to be fixed because there are still other classes that would be buying ammo. It's totally unfair and unrealistic to expect the majority of woodworker profit to come from just one class.
As you can read in the thread in the tradeskill forum from a post from Ilucide (Game Designer) from the same day then this thread was started, summond arrows should not be changed and therefore stay better than store bought which will be lowered for AA damage. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/...ssage.id=127741&view=by_date_ascending&page=4 It would be cool to get some response what the actual plans in the design and dev team really are (hope they are the same).
It does not matter if summoned arrows remain unchanged. They are still going to be less than player made - it is a nerf no matter how you cut it. Any ranger that wants to do max damage will have to buy arrows. Again, we are stuck buying arrows. I am still flabbergasted at how little the devs know about the ranger class and how every fix they try to put in is misguided and founded on erroneous data gathered from their supposed playing of the class. He probably played to level 20 solo and came to the conclusion that auto-attack is not much damage for us. /rollseyes. Everyone should send a PM to him and make him come back and address his misconception. And prove to us that we are not going to be strapped to a woodworker.
I'm going to make a list of proposed changes. I think the idea of mass use of consumables is a great idea, especially if the consumables are made by other players. Priests: Prayer Totems Each heal that the priest casts now consumes a Prayer Totem that allows the player to focus his energy into healing. Melee fighters: Whetstones: For every x attacks, a whetstone is consumed as blades need to be kept sharp at all times. Casters: Spell Components: The majority of all caster's spells now require the consumption of specific spell components. Tanks: Repair Kits (New Type): Even though the tank doesn't die, he is still getting beat on and his armor now takes damage. In order to keep it in good repair he now has to periodically use repair kits. Of course each class will have a SUB PAR ability to summon x number of each consumable, but be warned these abilities do not scale properly and you will often times be left with only the ability to summon consumables a whole tier below your current needs. However, TRADESKILLERS REJOICE, just look at all the new recipes they will be able to make. Possibly even different prayer totems for each class of healer, maybe even different ones for if you want to cast a solo heal, group heal, reactive, HoT, ward...omg the possibilities are endless!! And rest assured they are all sleeping happy tonight when they know they are the only source fir the best possible consumables because vendor bought stuff is now complete junk. /sarcasm off
Bentgate please read my post. No matter how much it aggrivates you to have to buy ammo, and me, this is still a huge improvement and should not be considered a nerf.
Rangers are the only one with an arrow summon CA right? (don't know if assasins get it or not) Why does summoned arrows need to be lowered? Why can't summoned = vendor? They are no drop, so I can't trade them, so it doesn't effect any other class. I use more than any other class possibly could anyway. Leave summoned and vendor as they are now (equal) and leave them for the same damage. Make the player crafted give their damage bonus with base the same as summoned/vendor(or however they are doing it), and everyone will be happy. I don't see why the vendor needs me to buy arrows from them. No one buys their armor, their weapons, and vary, vary rarely, their app2 spells. Why do they suddenly need my business for arrows? Let the tank classes and other scouts buy their arrows from them, let me summon my own, and make both equal.
Its handing us a much needed fix in one hand and then slapping us in the face with a nerf with the other while we're in the middle of saying thank you.
I'm actually excited about this proposal even though its not a complete fix, it should be a step in the right direction. Arrow consumption should go down tremendously since every ranged hit does not use an arrow now, only the auto attacks. In regards to the pricing of arrows - sure every ranger out there that wants to maximinze dps will be using player crafted arrows - the summoning line will be for solo adventruing and helping friends with lower lvl mobs. So now its about buying arrows from woodworkers. Looking at costs it will still hurt but maybe not as bad as it did before. If i have to fill up my 22 slot quiver it will cost the following based on what a woodworker would charge per arrow: 1.4sp per arrow (fuel only) = 1.38 gp per stack = 30.41 per quiver = 36.49 per quiver with 20% broker fee 2 sp per arrow = 1.98 gp per stack = 43.56 per quiver = 52.27 per quiver with broker fees 3 sp per arrow = 2.97 gp per stack = 65.34 per quiver = 78.41 per quiver with broker fees 4 sp per arrow = 3.96 gp per stack = 87.12 per quiver = 104.54 per quiver with broker fees How much profit should a tradeskiller make per combine? the above prices allow the woodworker to make 0, 0.6gp, 1.59 gp, or 2.58 gp per pristine combine if you assume fuel cost only and dont place a price on raw materials and if SOE decides to keep the fuel and raw material cost the same. I know they said that would but...... Not sure how these profits work when compared to what poison cost to make (I dont have an alchemist) -but if people are charging 30 sp for a poison and make 10 in a combine - does it cost them 3 gp in fuel? will we see this same mark-up on arrows?
No it's not the fact that crafted arrows will be a requiredment does not automaticly mean you will spend more cas on arrows now, which is why I made the post with the math. I agree this isn't optimal (think I have said this 10 times now), but this is not a nerf in anyway. If you are currently only using makeshift arrows and tend to spend alot of time standing around summoning arrows, then you will be spending less money on arrows, if you are one that allready were spending money on vendor bought arrows then you will be spending less money on arrows, if you are one of those that have a t8 ammo bow, you won't get affected, except that you don't "HAVE" to keep as many arrows on you at all times.
I am quite happy and satisfied with this resolution, SOE has earned a little respect with this response, now I hope that this comes through.
If the DPS is set as below, and *gathered DPS remains the same as now* then I don't see how it's a nerf, or how anyone can complain. Nothing has been made worse - our DPS is the same, our costs have been massively reduced, and Woodworkers might be able to sell some arrows (rather than selling a big fat zero now) Arrow DPS: Vendor < Gathered < Player Made OK, there's the potential for non Scout classes to increase their DPS by using player made arrows, but good luck to them I say. It's not going to make a huge difference as we're talking maybe 1 or 2 arrows before they have to switch to melee. I can also guarantee that 99% of them will flat out refuse to pay for the DPS increase. How many of them use anything other than tin arrows anyway ? Maybe they will finally begin to understand why we've been complaining so much. Now if the devs are crazy enough to reduce gathered arrow DPS even 1 point, and make vendor ammo better than gathered then I think I'll finally get the hint that the don't really want my money and quit playing once and for all.
Just to ask, since I'm not a raider in any way at all One of the people that have parses for how much damage % auto attack is, does that parse also have a number with it for the number of times "peirce" was used? I just want to see if somone can put a number to an average raid zone for the number of auto attacks that we use. That might get a starting point for the new arrow consumption rate. If we get down to just auto-attack using actual arrows, maybe we'll find that we would only use say 800 arrows/raid or something (made up number) rather than 4000+ that people are saying. I'm not getting into the "paying for DPS" argument, just wondering if we have an estimate on how many arrows would be used.
That is what they are doing. Summoned arrows will be 6% less damage. So our summon arrow skill is now junk. Let me repeat. We will still have to buy arrows to perform our job to the utmost. This is replacing one broken mechanic with another. Dont get me wrong I am glad that our CAs dont use arrows. I mostly raid, so most of my arrow consumption comes from auto-attack anyways so this hurts us more than anyone else. Leave summoned alone. That is the only way to be fair.
You still didn't answer my question. I could care less if you find it ethically "fair" that you have to pay to do part of your DPS. That isn't what I was asking. I was asking, assuming you HAVE TO pay for part of your DPS what is a fair price for the crafter to charge you? Ideally one of 2 things happen, 1 - All DPS classes have some form of consumable items they can use for good power-free auto attack. And we're all on the same playing field. Personally, I like this idea the most as I'd love to be able to keep up when I'm getting low on power. 2 - Rangers no longer have to pay for arrows, which I can care less about because it doesn't effect me either way. Because, I'm a wizard and I don't currently craft arrows because there is no reason for me to. Lastly, I doubt they will make summoned arrows do the damage they do now, with more damage for store bought, then crafted because then they will be essentially giving you all a free DPS increase.
I'm not sure why the ammo is flagged as legendary, all other types of gathered arrows are just no-flag. Once people can level to 80 having the ammo as Legendary could cause some problems. It would completely destroy the arrow market at T8 (haha, stop laughing I know it's funny but I'm serious) and make the T8 summoned arrow spell pointless. Actually, I'd like to see arrow levels something like this: vendor = handcrafted (same as previous tier mastercrafted) gathered = treasured ( > handcrafted ammo) player made = mastercrafted (same as next tier handcrafted) The T8 ammo from those bows should be set to treasured. The actual word doesn't matter one bit, providing there is no nerf to damage output. The ammo would still be better than T7 player made arrows (see above), so it would easily be the best in game (as well as being free). Just to make it absolutely clear - the T8 ammo from those bows would still be the best in game at the current time. Nobody is calling for a DPS nerf. Don't touch the DPS, rather use these arrows as a base for T8 when it arrives. Once the level cap is increased then these bows would be giving ammo equal to Ranger T8 gathering spell. This makes a lot of sense to me. It's an additional method of getting arrows, so it still has some use, just not from a DPS point of view. Of course, let's not forget that there will be a whole bunch of new T8 bows with T9 ammo gathering etc. so I doubt anyone would want to use these old bows anyway. Or are we saying that these T7 bows should still be the be-all-end-all for a T8 Ranger ?
Perhaps you could re-read the entire post and see that these are suggestions to put everyone on the same playing field. We don't have consumables, and we also don't have any decent auto attack. Give me a method of auto attack that I can do from range and I'd gladly pay for consumables.
Bentgate you are misunderstanding, Vendor arrows are being nerfed, not makeshift. There was some confusement but in the thread on the ts forums it is stated that they are not touching summoned arrows at all, what they are doing is increasing crafted arrows, so that summoned arrows will be less efficent than the new crafted arrows, not that they will be 6% worse than they are now. And stop bringing up the wizards have to use power potions etc etc.. we pay for poisons, and there is alot of rangers/scouts that use powerpotions stat potions etc etc.. as allready stated. And in any case it is a mute point, cause it is not required. Yea sure you need em to make the best out of your class, but when we are talking about arrows we are not talking about making the best out of our class we are simply talking about using our class at all. And comparing wizards not having a ranged auto attack is mute as well, cause then there is a huge misunderstanding in how rangers are balanced. Rangers AA is the way they balance out our dps.. Comparing CAs and Spells of most classes you will see that rangers are lower in almost all aspects, and we have AAs to compensate, if you really want to get a consumeable item to do ranged auto attacks do understand that it means a HUGE nerf for wizard spells (if it ever was to happen, as it happend to rangers). Message Edited by RabbitFly on 02-01-2007 11:05 AM
