Arrow Consumption Update

Discussion in 'Ranger' started by ARCHIVED-Rothgar, Jan 31, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-Deson Guest

    Yes but, rangers aren't the only ones that use arrows adn I think that's a major point they consider. What I posted makes rangers primarily self sufficient except when they choose other options and everyone else still consumes arrows as an optional damage source.
  2. ARCHIVED-ArivenGemini Guest

    Cool, thanks bongo :)
  3. ARCHIVED-dubbs Guest

    Who said only rangers could buy the "Bundle of Arrows"? It would be useable by all classes, of course you could make other Bundle types too for all types of Throwing weapons.
  4. ARCHIVED-Boramyr Guest

    A slight flaw in your logic here is that its T8 LEGENDARY ammo.
    since the game works like this
    No Flag < Handcrafted < Treasured < Mastercrafted < Legendary < Fabled < Mythical
    And T7 < T8
    The Ammo from Bazkul, Ichorstrand, and the Membranous Spined Sheath better be more damage than anything else other than the Fabled Emerald Halls arrows and any other fabled/legendary T8 ammo they decide to add, until they put in T9 ammo of any type. If its not they are Nerfing the weapons and will have to completely readjust the system when they raise the level caps.
  5. ARCHIVED-Barramundi Guest

    I will use less arrows, but to strive for my best dps I have to pay for arrows that I could summon before. On top of paying for poisons I now have to pay more to play my class. Why was this good news?
  6. ARCHIVED-Saihung23 Guest

    I don't quite know what to make of this proposed set of changes. I am glad that they are at least making an attempt on this issue, however, I do believe that anytime you make part of the solution to our arrow consumption issues based upon another players whims (read: woodworker pricing) then you are not giving us a solution but more of a patchwork fix.


    I have no doubt that SOME woodworkers will price the arrows reasonably. However, I believe for the most part in the greedy nature of man and that woodworkers for the most part know that our ***** are in a sling on this and will gouge us rangers.
    Again...I like the attention put on finding a fix. However, I am apprehensive of the proposed changes.

    I will play the wait and see game though. It has been this long with little to no contact that it isnt going to be any different waiting to see.

    I for one will not be the one to sit here in the forum and complain about the proposed changes till I see them in effect. I will not make myself dread Developer Attention on this issue. And I will not discourage new rangers by pretending to know it all when I don't.
    I will wait and see. If I have a desire to help on test I will do so. I very likely will be making a test character to take the arrows our for a test drive.
  7. ARCHIVED-Bithnar Guest

    This is good news on the surface. But instead of summoned arrows<Vendor bought<crafted<T8 ammo make it so that our summoned line=vendor bought<crafted<T8 summoned. And making our summoned line and vendor bought arrows the base line on damage. I see no reason to make our summoned arrows do less damage that store bought. I would also like to see them change the summon line to be like a pet type spell where is summons tier appropreate arrows. I just hit 52 and I have another whole 10 levels before I get ammo thats tier appropreate (unless I want to spend tons of money or time to get tier appropreate ammo). I am a wood worker as well so this isn't as big a hit to me on arrows but I would rather be out adventuring that chained to a work table for several hours a week just to have good ammo.
  8. ARCHIVED-Deson Guest

    No one said it would be ranger only, I said rangers not being the only ones that use arrows is the reason it can't/won't be done.Note that if you look for my posts in other ranger/arrow use threads I suggested almost exaclty what you said. I even went a step further and said bows should just assume they have arrows for current base damage and every ammo piece should be considered special.

    For every class but rangers- especially after the CA changes- ranged is optional. They don't want to remove this cost but, it affects rangers disproportionately. My suggestion was trying to allieviate the ranger issue while leaving ammo management a viable balance tool against everyone else.
  9. ARCHIVED-LevLo Guest

    Ok let me clearify.. I have always thought, and debated.. and still think and debate the fact that rangers have to spend money/time on being able to do their primary job, is flawed and highly unfair. So I do agree that the solution is not optimal, I just think you are underestimating the changes (not you alone of course). Recipes will have the same fuel requirements (this has been confirmed). Which means player crafted arrows will cost 1/4 of what they do now to make. So to further my point I decided I would do the math.

    one craft of t7 arrows is 4 sandpapers (a total of 1g 38s 24c) this is about 1s and 39 copper per arrow.

    Filling a quiver then requires 30g 27s 42c, this quiver will last you about 2 hours of total adventuring, in which time you should be able to make 1-5p depending on type of hunting and luck of roll.

    Filling a quiver using makeshift arrows (from my post on the Arrows - Bloody Hell thread)

    adept 1 - 9 hours and 30 minutes = 2000 arrows
    adept 3 - 7 hours and 20 minutes = 2000 arrows
    Master 1 - 5 hours and 30 minutes =2000 arrows

    Best case scenario, you have master1 and spent 5 aps into your makeshift skill. and it takes you 2 hours and 45minutes to fill a quiver (ca numbers as a full dragonhide quiver is slightly more than 2k).

    This best case scenario includes spending lots of plat on a master in huge demand, and spending 5 aps you would probably not chose to have cause you need those elsewhere. And even then you cannot deny the fact that buying crafted arrows at cost will still be cheaper.

    2 hours and 15 minutes should in the very least give you a plat, and very likely alot more than that. Of course this is highly depending on where you hunt and your luck in the RNG.

    As I said this is not the optimal solution, but thinking that you now have to spend more money on arrows than you had to before is not the case. Seeing as standing around just summoning arrows would net you a profit of 0.

    Then you take into the consideration of the consumption rate which now will be considerably lower, in other words your one quiver of arrows worth 30g, should now give you almost twice the adventure time it used to, therefore doubleing your profits of your investment..

    As I said, and let me get you to focus on this, I do still not think this is the optimal solution as we are still required to spend money to do our primary job (and no thats not just good, thats just doing it at all). But thinking that this will make you spend more money than you used to (considering that time is money) is just plain wrong.

    Sorry if you felt threatened by my earlier post, it was not my intention to flame you or anyone. I just wanted you to understand the way these two changes snowball. And now you have the math to back it up in front of you.

    I guess one thing they could do, as allready stated by a few is make makeshift arrows better than vendor bought and therefore closing the gap between makeshift and crafted, or even make them equal. As this would lower our cost even more as the small bonus of making free arrows will help it a bit as well.

    EDIT:
    to add to the comment from a wizard asking for an Auto-attack that did the same ammount of dps that ours do, OMG you know some wizards would peak at 4500dps then?.. so in other words forget about it, reason you don't have this is because your spells do alot more dps than ours do, so thats just plain silly.
    Message Edited by RabbitFly on 02-01-2007 07:48 AM
    Message Edited by RabbitFly on 02-01-2007 07:51 AM
    Message Edited by RabbitFly on 02-01-2007 08:01 AM
  10. ARCHIVED-valkyrja Guest

    Just curious, as a wood worker.

    2 part question, please answer seriously.

    1 - If this goes live as proposed, what do you consider to be a fairr price for crafted arrows when purchased on the broker?

    2 - What would you consider to be a fair price for for crafted arrows when dealing with the woodworker directly (ie: placing an order)

    And please, I am saying fair, as in realistically what would you pay without thinking "this woodworker sure is an over-charging [I cannot control my vocabulary]".
  11. ARCHIVED-LevLo Guest

    That is a good point I did not take into consideration into my math, some of you have been complaining about greed from players.

    I think anything above 2x the fuel cost price is unfair, especially when it comes to stuff like arrows that will be sold in huge bunks. The problem (that I have stated before) is that the the time spent crafting vs. money gained from selling ratio have not changed at all with these changes. And this is a totally different kind of snowballing, as countering this they would have to make even more arrows per craft, with a higher fuel cost (giving them more possible profit per craft without heightening the cost of arrows), and also make ammo stacks be much larger to not nerf the woodworkers broker slots.

    I have allready suggested (in another thread I think), that they should up it 5x and fuel cost 5x.. to make the time constraint on the woodworker more worthwhile, the only problem is as I allready said is the ammount of broker slots the woodworker will have to use on arrows to keep up with demand.
  12. ARCHIVED-valkyrja Guest

    The broker slots isn't too much of a concern, they can go in weapon racks which have 80 slots. I don't picture having more than 8000 arrows up at any given time, as ideally I'd prefer to take orders from reliable customers.

    Secondly, profit from crafting vs. adventuring isn't much of a concern for me because I tend to craft when I don't feel like adventuring.
  13. ARCHIVED-LevLo Guest

    ok then what about profit vs time spent?

    would 1g per craft be a decent profit for you? (1g being the profit not the price)
  14. ARCHIVED-Hisvet Guest

    First of all, Rothgar made an extremely unfortunate decision saying our auto attack damage is not much. That was just so wrong and flippant. We're a class that scrutinizes every single percent of our dps in the same way other classes do their mitigation or healing etc. We make choices of gear and AAs based on 1% dps. Autoattack is a HUGE portion of our damage anywhere from 35-50% of our damage depending on playstyle, we cannot even suppress how much damage autoattack is for us even spamming CAs we're getting at least a third of our damage from it. I'm not sure there's a single class or person that wouldn't say 1/3 or more is an insignificant portion of dps.
    Next to the wizard complaining about consumables. We ALSO consume potions and totems, and food, and repairs, and buy spells. So We use potions of power, str, int etc like everyone else in the game. We use totems for power regen, health regen see invis/stealth like everyone else in the game. We eat food and drink like everyone else in the game and repair and get our A3s and masters. We ALSO use poisons like 3 other classes in the game. We ALSO buy ammo, and must buy ammo for our primary dps like 0 other classes in the game. Believe me we pay for our dps and I'm sick of it.
    I have nothing against woodworkers. I buy totems from them, I commission specialty arrows for the drake from them and when they used to be able to make rare arrows I bought those too. But we should *not* be forced to buy from anywhere to maintain decent dps with our primary skills when we are a primary dps class!
    This just invalidated not only a whole CA line but a new EOF 5 point AA too. This makes the DT bows even MORE valuable seeing as we have had no hints or promise of level cap increases any time soon. I didn't always have time to summon the arrows I needed to raid, so I supplement them with vendor. Sometimes people were kind enough to buy from the vendor to help me with the costs. That was a situation that was ridiculous.
    The new situation is even more tenuous. My summoned arrows will become terrible, a line people have sunk a ton of plat, months searching some even have their M2s in it and 5 points from EOF aa for it. The vendor arrows will become a little worse than they currently are. Players who make arrows will NOT be charging 3/4 less than they were for a stack just because they can make 4 times more, because they weren't getting a profit anyway. If it takes a woodworkers 1-2 hours or more to make arrows for one ranger's use in one raid sure they should be paid for it they will therefore price accordingly.
    The worst way to realize a profit is mass marketing when you do not have an automated system of assembly. Arrow profitability only works when you keep prices low and make a ton. Since individual players still have to do that crafting I bet that will get old pretty fast. I'll want to have good ammo for good dps. But hey, a scintillating dust on Antonia Bayle goes for 20+ gold apiece. I'm already going through a plat of poisons and potions per raid. If my ammo consumption drops to half of what it is now I still see a huge expenditure coming IF the woodworkers want a profit worth the crafting time.
    In which case this is still senseless. Rangers are STILL paying for their dps in a way nobody else is. We are beholden to either players or vendors, and players tend to be more arbitrary and capricious. Unless we actually eliminate a dependency to pay for ammo that is of good quality for our dps that situation will not go away.
    I'm sure we as rangers would be happy to support our fellow crafters by spending money for cool things. We buy adornments, we buy additional things that will give us an edge. Something like cool arrows that will do more damage or elemental damage or something sure we would be willing to pay for.
    But reducing the damage on vendor and summoned ammo to force us to pay for what should be a luxury item out of ignorance for where our damage is coming from is uncalled for. We're doing pretty good as is barring extreme poverty in some cases or annoyance in others, we are highly gear dependent for extremely rare drop items that you've already screwed with by allowing even more classes to use and get the bows we need. Ammo has been a sore spot all the way through. We need it, you keep doing things to make us need as good as we can get and you keep making it pricey.
    Heck if I have to keep paying through the nose for my dps I better be doing some [I cannot control my vocabulary] fine dps and after raiding with the casters last night post the new spell resistance lowerings I think we can say that is not the status quo. ((kudos to the casters for the damage but this is a ranger forum on a ranger issue)). You are making these rare bows even more of a desperate case for us.








    Message Edited by Hisvet on 02-01-2007 08:24 AM
    Message Edited by Hisvet on 02-01-2007 08:37 AM
  15. ARCHIVED-Anxion Guest

    Interesting changes coming. Reading through the thread and I want to comment on a few things:

    1. Several people stated that we effectively have to pay for our damage and this is wrong. I totally agree with this. Yes other scouts pay for poisons but NOT for their primary damage time. Everytime I shoot an arrow its going to cost me XXX amount. That's not right.
    2. Any ranger who wants to perform effectively will not use the summoned arrow lines. Maybe we should consider just removing this line and the arrow rip line and replace them with other abilities. Perhaps a group buff that increases Raw attack rating similar to the spirit of the predator line from EQ1.
    3. We are at the mercy of a tradeskill class, this is wrong on many levels. SOME woodworkers WILL try to exploit this to make money. I feel lucky I am a 70 woodworker so I can be more or less self-suffcient.
    4. It would be really neat to see different magical damage type arrows to. Maybe they would be made from rare harvests or something. But having arrows that deal fire, cold or perhaps a poison DoT would be rather neat.
  16. ARCHIVED-TeflonS7 Guest

    I think Bithnar has the right idea. Make our summoned arrows stay the same in dmg output, and all others built around that value. That way we won't have any more cost to keep the same dps we may be doing now. And provided that is what they do, I certainly wouldn't mind purchasing a few stacks of higher quality arrows for more dps, kinda like going from regular to mastercrafted poisons. I just don't want to have to spend money just to keep the same dps I'm doing now. Another thing that might be good would be to up the dmg amount on upgrades of the summoning line.
  17. ARCHIVED-Emperors Guest

    You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make. It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).
    Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.
    For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows. Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.
  18. ARCHIVED-Deson Guest

    It's hardly unfair. You shouldn't be paying for your base damage and rangers aren't the only ones that use ammo.
  19. ARCHIVED-Emperors Guest

    I understand that we aren't the only ones that use ammo, but I'm afraid I don't undertand what it is you were trying to say. Would you mind rephrasing please?
  20. ARCHIVED-Ranja Guest

    Again I must ask are we playing the same game as the devs. Where the hell do they get these ideas. This is ridiculous and just like the post by Moor that said "if procs make up 50% of ranger damage then something is wrong". Well guess what procs did make up alot of our damage as they found out when the crushed our damage with the proc change and then scrambled to make up for it.

    Auto-attack makes up 30%-40% of my damage and I use Raincaller. I also parse around 1500 zone wide so that is a significant portion of damage. Again WHAT THE HELL GAME ARE THE DEVS PLAYING!!! How can they make such an obvious oversight. It never fails to amaze me how little the devs understand their own game.

    This change is better but all it does is make us be strapped to the teet of a woodworker.