Arrow Consumption Update

Discussion in 'Ranger' started by ARCHIVED-Rothgar, Jan 31, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-Badaxe Bart Guest

    For the 95% of us rangers who DON'T have Ichorstrand or Bazkul bows, and who are understandably more concerned with the fixes/adjustments proposed in the immediate update, a reminder to the 5% who do have those weapons that worrying about future advancements is a valid point for you, but not for the rest of us. You raise a good point on the t8 legendary arrows. But I don't think the question has been looked at yet, so now isn't the time. Lets continue to focus on the upcoming changes, and put our best input forward. To any who just jumped on to the last page, GO Back AND READ ALL THE POSTS!
  2. ARCHIVED-blackdog1 Guest

    Faelen,there is a big diffrence from paying for poisons and paying for arrows.I'm amazed that your missing it.The diffrence being everyone that uses poisons must pay for them.Not just rangers.By paying for the arrows,the devs are singling out one group of players and MAKING them pay for a third of there dps's.It's akin to making Meleers having to use a new wet stone every 10 swings to sharpen their blades and making them pay for the wet stones.Also,we now have to pay for 2 seperate products to dps properly.Why not make it 3 or 4.Not counting food and drink of course.
  3. ARCHIVED-EQ2Magroo Guest

    FOR THE LAST TIME !!

    ONCE THIS FIX GOES IN, RANGERS WON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ARROWS ANY MORE !! WE CAN SUMMON ALL THE ARROWS WE NEED, WITHOUT SPENDING HOURS STANDING AROUND JUST SUMMONING.

    OK, the small print is that if you are a non-T8 arrow Ranger, and you really really want to max you DPS over and above what the Ranger class has been balanced to do, then yes, you can pay for player made arrows. I repeat, if you want to do the damage that your class has been "designed" to do, (even though you may not agree that this "design" is high enough, but that is a seperate issue entirely) then you do not need to pay any money - you simply use summoned arrows. Zero cost, and after the fixes go in, it should be zero down-time spent too.


    Anyone who complains about buying player made arrows, but isn't prepared to complain about buying poisons, potions, food, Master 1 spells etc. is ignoring the fact that all classes have to pay to some extent do their *max* DPS (food/drink/potions apply equally to all classes). Maybe Rangers have to pay a bit more, maybe not, but all classes have their crosses to bear.

    If you still think you are being *forced* to pay for DPS, then please consider the following:

    - When this change goes in, nobody is going to be complaining about Ranger DPS if they are using the free summoned arrows. Their DPS will be exactly the same as it is today. If your raid leader complains, I suggest you get a new raid leader, or join a server that is used by sensible, mature adults.

    - If the devs reverse the proposed change so that the player made arrows do the same damage as summoned arrows, then all you "max DPS" people should be happy right ? To achieve the fabled "max DPS" then all a Ranger needs to do is use their free summoned arrows. So, in effect you're asking the devs to take out a potential DPS increase for *all* us non-uber Rangers, because you think we aren't prepared to pay just 1/8th of what we used to pay to do even less damage ?

    - If you truely do want player made arrows to be equal to summoned, then in that case I say let's take out the grandmaster poisons too. I don't like paying more for those than the master poisons (note, I'm not going as far as asking for poisons to be free, just that the better, more expensive option that some Rangers like to use to max their DPS, is removed. Sound familiar ?) Also, I don't like the fact that some Rangers can afford AD3 and Master spells, my App2 should do the same damage as those. Why should other Rangers do more DPS than me just because they want spend an extra few GP ? Sounds crazy doesn't it ? Perhaps you can now understand how your complaining sounds to the rest of us, who see this change as nothing but 100% good news.
  4. ARCHIVED-EQ2Magroo Guest

    Well this is a good point that's been raised and I'm going to start a thread on it and see if we can get some dev input (although I doubt they'll want to get burned again)


    Why are the makeshift arrows available so far into a tier and not from the first level of a tier ?


    Surely, when I hit level 50, I should be using tier 6 ammo (lvl 50 ammo). I can buy the vendor stuff, and player made stuff and start using it, so why not gather my own ?


    I think there is a genuine complaint here in that even after the proposed fixes, those Rangers who have not yet reached the next level of makeshift arrows *are* being *forced* to pay to achive the DPS that the devs expect for their tier.

    The game design assumes that a tier 5 Ranger is using tier 5 ammo, but he can't do this for free until level 48. That's 8 whole levels with crippled DPS. It gets even worse once you hit tier 6. Tier 7 isn't too bad as it's "just" 2 levels, but it's still wrong.

    There's also another complaint about Rip being one tier behing, and I think I'll fold that into the thread too.
  5. ARCHIVED-blackdog1 Guest

    EQ2magroo.I wasn't really complaning about having to pay for the crafted arrows.Tho after rereading my post I see how you would come to that conclusion.And I don't think our harvested arrows should be the equal of the summoned.What my point was, that I stated badly, was why do we have to pay for "2" things(Crafted arrows and poisons) to realize the DPS we should be putting out. Say within 5%-!0% of the other dps classes.I am saying our dps with poisons,shoud be nearer to the Assasine's and other dps classes output without buying crafted arrows.Then if you bought the crafted arrows,depending on the ranger,equal to or a bit better than the other dpsers.My logic being,if I have to pay for 2 things for max dps,I should reap the rewards.

    The way it is now,I have to spend alot more money to "maybe" be the equal of other dps classes.It's the only thing we do.Why are we the worst at it?
  6. ARCHIVED-Badaxe Bart Guest

    EQ2Magroo wrote

    FOR THE LAST TIME !!
    Yet the very next post is yours.

    ONCE THIS FIX GOES IN, RANGERS WON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ARROWS ANY MORE !! WE CAN SUMMON ALL THE ARROWS WE NEED, WITHOUT SPENDING HOURS STANDING AROUND JUST SUMMONING.
    You contradicted yourself in the same sentence. we can summon all the arrows we need without spending hours standing around just summoning. CA's aren't summoning ammo (except for rip arrow line=1 arrow per use w/restriction on space in your inventory) for use at another time. Time will still be required to summon arrows. This is also affected by the number of arrows summoned by the quality level of your summoning ability.

    OK, the small print is that if you are a non-T8 arrow Ranger, and you really really want to max you DPS over and above what the Ranger class has been balanced to do, then yes, you can pay for player made arrows. I repeat, if you want to do the damage that your class has been "designed" to do, (even though you may not agree that this "design" is high enough, but that is a seperate issue entirely) then you do not need to pay any money - you simply use summoned arrows. Zero cost, and after the fixes go in, it should be zero down-time spent too.
    I once again point out that time will still be required to summon arrows. NO other class has to do this for ammunition to supply approximately 40% of our damage output.

    Anyone who complains about buying player made arrows, but isn't prepared to complain about buying poisons, potions, food, Master 1 spells etc. is ignoring the fact that all classes have to pay to some extent do their *max* DPS (food/drink/potions apply equally to all classes). Maybe Rangers have to pay a bit more, maybe not, but all classes have their crosses to bear.
    This is the Ranger forum and we are discussing Ranger changes and people will complain about anything anyway, but my argument to this is the irrelevence of the other items you pointed to when they don't affect all classes equally, nor do all classes use all those items. Lastly, you failed to explain why we should have to carry a 500LB wooden cross around to play our class.
    If you still think you are being *forced* to pay for DPS, then please consider the following:

    - When this change goes in, nobody is going to be complaining about Ranger DPS if they are using the free summoned arrows. Their DPS will be exactly the same as it is today. If your raid leader complains, I suggest you get a new raid leader, or join a server that is used by sensible, mature adults.
    See above statement in regards to what people will complain about, and explain why exactly the people complaining now are going to suddenly stop.

    - If the devs reverse the proposed change so that the player made arrows do the same damage as summoned arrows, then all you "max DPS" people should be happy right ? To achieve the fabled "max DPS" then all a Ranger needs to do is use their free summoned arrows. So, in effect you're asking the devs to take out a potential DPS increase for *all* us non-uber Rangers, because you think we aren't prepared to pay just 1/8th of what we used to pay to do even less damage ?
    Excuse me, sir, the bean counters, they have gone and pointed out that Combat arts average approximately 35% of ammunition usage at current rates, therefore it is only reasonable to expect at best an expenditure rate reduction of 35%. They also point out that this alleged number does not take into consideration any factors at all when it comes trying to predict (insert shudder here) market fluctuations, or commodities buyers. In other words, no guarantees, no warranties.

    - If you truely do want player made arrows to be equal to summoned, then in that case I say let's take out the grandmaster poisons too. I don't like paying more for those than the master poisons (note, I'm not going as far as asking for poisons to be free, just that the better, more expensive option that some Rangers like to use to max their DPS, is removed. Sound familiar ?) Also, I don't like the fact that some Rangers can afford AD3 and Master spells, my App2 should do the same damage as those. Why should other Rangers do more DPS than me just because they want spend an extra few GP ? Sounds crazy doesn't it ? Perhaps you can now understand how your complaining sounds to the rest of us, who see this change as nothing but 100% good news.
    Let me get this straight. You are now recommending that alchemists should not make poisons for scouts? This would include assassins and swashbucklers as well as just rangers. Interesting. Is it just rangers you don't want to have the ability to improve their combat skills or do you prefer all classes?
    /steps away from the issue.
    /steps further back.
    Guess I'm not on your side then.
  7. ARCHIVED-nirav21 Guest

    Nubcakes. Reclaimed arrows is lvl 62. Add 14 lvls to it since a spell gets upgraded every 14 lvls. = lvl 76. Which is less then lvl 80.
    And thats just going by the current spell upgrade mechanism. Devs can change that if they wish.
  8. ARCHIVED-FluffyDestroyerofWorlds Guest

    [...]
    Because I swear that I saw that :) ;) :D :eek:-ing horse move...

    For raiders, save up every last scrap of DKP you can get your grubby little mits on and bug the :) ;) :D :eek: out of your raid leaders to schedule raids for those zones where those bows drop. If you're in a hard-core guild (and are a Ranger *gasp*) you're evidently valued enough that your guildies should understand the necessity of equipping you with summoning bows. For those of us in casual raiding guilds, even after the next expansion, there are still going to be plenty of raids called for T7 raid zones. Same thing applies, we're just not going to see that things (probably) for a while longer.

    For non-raiders, I see two (ahem) options: betrayal or leveling a woodworker.

    Personally, if it gets that bad, I'll probably end up just playing one of my two alts full-time. We went through the same :O :) :) :D with DoF. I would hope that there are simply unspoken-of features that will probably be added to the Ranger class to mitigate the obvious problem that leaving summoned arrows out of a tier would cause.

    Regards,
    Smoothie Le'Clot [ 70 Ranger ]
    Shadows & Dust
    Mistmoore
  9. ARCHIVED-EQ2Magroo Guest

  10. ARCHIVED-EQ2Magroo Guest

    I think the key to the argument is raised very well right here in your post.

    What my point was, that I stated badly, was why do we have to pay for "2" things(Crafted arrows and poisons) to realize the DPS we should be putting out.

    My opinion is that our designed DPS is based around summoned arrows, and not crafted arrows. It's probably a moot point anyway, as I don't see any distinction between DPS output for summoned or crafted arrows currently. But in theory, the devs balance us assuming summoned arrows.

    So this means after the patch we will be able to achieve our designed DPS using the free crafted arrows.


    I am saying our dps with poisons,shoud be nearer to the Assasine's and other dps classes output without buying crafted arrows
    I agree. If we as Rangers don't think our designed DPS is enough (a valid argument I think), then we need to hassle the devs to get a DPS increase.

    However, I think that Ranger DPS vs other classes is a seperate issue altogether to arrow supply/usage. The devs could fix that by increasing a stat on our offensive buff or class trait for example.


    To recap, the purpose of this fix:

    - To reduce Ranger costs associated with having to buy arrows because the supply from gathering them cannot keep up with demand.

    - The fix is *not* designed to increase Ranger DPS or rebalance it with regards to other classes. If you have a complaint about summoned arrows not dealing sufficient damage (why aren't you complaining now ?) please start a new thread to ge this issue addressed.


  11. ARCHIVED-LevLo Guest

    I just want to clearify a bit. Some of you have been unsure/confused about the actual decrease the CAs not consuming arrows will do.

    to illustrate this I dug up a post from LoreLady who did the math on this very thing back in the Arrows - Bloody Hell thread.

    In one minute you use 19 arrows with CA's per minute

    Confounding arrow 2 arrows per min
    TrippleVolly 3 arrows per min
    Precise shot 6 arrows per min
    Leg shot 6 arrows per min
    Culling of the weak 1 arrow per min
    Vieled fire 1 arrow every 1 min 30


    A longbow, with a rangers average haste with a delay of say 4 will consume 15 arrows per minute.

    now thats over 50% decrease in arrow consumption.

    And thats not even counting eventual delay you get by CAs during combat.

    To recap, if you were to hit all your CAs perfectly for 1 hour that would be 1120 arrows

    and as earlier stated 900 arrows per hour with only auto attack.

    thats a 55% decrease with these numbers. This will of course vary depending on delay of your bow and ammount of haste you have.

    But most have a 6.5 -7 sec delay bow, with a haste of around 50-80. If you have a better bow say Sarnak, LoC, or even Star Darkened your arrow usage will go down even more as their delays are longer.

    give or take we said it was possible to use about 1 quiver within 2 hours of adventuring gameplay. 1 quiver is now 2178 arrows.
    So with these numbers 2 hours of gameplay should be 980 arrows with the changes currently stated. So what used to be 2 hours will now be 4 hours and 30 minutes of actual adventuring gameplay.

    As I said these are give and take numbers as every situation differs, some have more downtime some have less etc etc etc.
    And as I said the little delay you give your auto attack with your CAs it does add up over the hours and it will make the % even higher.

    I still think the recipe changes should be looked into more, it's about the time vs. profit margin I am still worried about.


    Message Edited by RabbitFly on 02-05-2007 07:27 AM
  12. ARCHIVED-Badaxe Bart Guest

    EQ2Magroo's argument is based on unverified information and is therefore invalid.
    When arrow usage is taken into consideration, You simply cannot assume that every single player will be able to keep summoning arrows at a compensatory rate.
    Averages now show that CA's only use about 50% of our current ammunition rate, else why would SOE be looking at increasing the arrow production amounts as well? I AM PLEASED THAT I WILL BE BUYING 50% LESS ARROWS, SINCE I PLAY ON A PVP SERVER, the last thing I want to do while chasing/being chased is stopping to show myself whileI summon arrows (can you say "Look there he is, get Him!).
    Based on EQ2magroo's statement, Rangers should be able to summon enough arrows to make the tradeskill changes unneccessary. This is simply unproven, and the ratio of arrow usage provides evidence to support the opposite in fact.
    I do get to raid occasionally, like all players searching for better gear etc. I DON"T have a t8 ammo summoning bow as someone erronously assumed.
    I keep pointing out, along with other people, how difficult any predictions are to make when it comes to market forces. For example, currently on My PvP server crafed fulginate arrows (the highest tier I could find when I checked the broker) were priced starting at 13s 20c. Yes, this included the 20% broker fee, because they weren't in a salesman's crate either. Comparing to the vendor price of fulginate arrows at 3s 7c, and even removing the 20% bringing the price down to 11s per arrow, and you can see my concern about how difficult market prices are to predict, when it hasn't been implemented live yet.
    Also, I don't say this to mean PvP should be treated different, nor do I mean that this change shouldn't be put in, as I LOVE the idea. It just won't solve all our ammunition woes. And yes, I buy grandmaster's poisons and potions, and totems too. I try to use everything I can to gain the advantage in PvP combat. If crafted arrows will do more damage, I guess I'll be spending Money on those as well. This does have a side effect though, it negates in a way the purpose of this change, to reduce our cost for ammunition.
    By the way, I've read every post on this thread.
    Message Edited by Badaxe Bart on 02-05-2007 08:14 AM
  13. ARCHIVED-LoreLady Guest

    As rabbit said, 15 arrows per minute consumed on alongbow with haste of 40.. 150 arrows every 10 minutes, you summon 60 in 10 minutes master one..The old system was 32 arrows per minute, comming out to be 320 arrows every 10 minutes.. Poisons are used up one every 20-30 minutes, comming to about 50s a poison..

    What your forgetting though is bounty, 30s every minute and a half comes to 2g every 10 mins, this is more than enough to compansate for the extra arrows and poisons in your typical group.


    As for complaining that you still have to pay money for this stuff, it is minor and now we will be atleast on par with the classes that have to buy reagents.. conj's have to pay 2g per coh, necro's have to pay for there rez, rouges still have to pay for arrows poisons, bards still have to pay for arrows (they do use them)..
  14. ARCHIVED-Badaxe Bart Guest

    Ok, your definition of minor might not match mine. So lets use an example of a ranger who just got his t7 summon arrows ability.
    A dragonhide quiver has 22 slots, this is 2078 arrows.
    Adamantine arrows from vendor at 6s 91c x 99 x 22 = 1p 50g 66s 18c to fill when completely empty at today's rate.
    Time to summon 2078 makeshift adamantine arrows at say, app IV because everyone doesn't have a master I, is 2078 / 30 x 10 minutes =approximately 11 hrs 50 minutes, if you NEVER miss the button when the ten minutes is up. SAY YOU PLAY AN AVERAGE OF 4 HOURS A NIGHT, THIS WILL TAKE YOU THREE DAYS TO FILL UP YOUR DRAGONHIDE QUIVER. This also means no arrow usage of any kind while you do so.
    Bounty skill only works on green or better creatures, and you have to be fighting while you use it. It is unreasonable to throw this out as a way that rangers can recoup their cost. Not without higher bounties at least! (this doesn't work agains PC's in PvP BTW)
    The proposed changes will help rangers immensely inth their ammunition costs. It won't eliminate it.
  15. ARCHIVED-Likias Guest

    I already pay for my dps now as it is, but I dont see myself makin a big deal out of this even after it goes live. I use so many arrows that I almost always use up my 16 slot quiver after 2 days of doing writs or solo questing. Even with summoning arrows everytime I can, I still wind up buying arrows. I dont really care that much about that obviously cuz I do it. I also spend quite a bit on extra poisons of various types. Guess I have to build up my WW and Alchy...sigh. God I hate crafting...lol.
    Anyway, I'm not going to be using as many arrows (or I think that's the point of this thread?) so the WW is gonna lose out if I dont have to buy arrows as much. I really dont see why they're so happy about this change...lol. So they're gonna wind up not makin as many and upping the price on the ones they DO make to keep up. Which in turn will make it harder on those that HAVE to buy arrows now cuz the crafted ones are WAY better in the long run? I dont know...maybe I'm just confused. People can talk mechanics all they want. I never understand anything that I dont see in front of me anyway. So hopefully it'll work out for the best...8)

    Message Edited by Likias on 02-05-2007 04:47 PM
  16. ARCHIVED-Teksun Guest

    I really don't care what consumption will be like. It's a big step in the right direction, and it's actually something I've been suggesting forever...
  17. ARCHIVED-Emperors Guest

    The WW's are happy because they will be making the highest damage arrows that will be available to every Ranger with some cash. Only people this won't affect are the few who have a T8 summon bow. Because of this, all Raiders and some Group/Soloers will go to the WW for a little boost in DPS if they want to.
  18. ARCHIVED-afeather Guest

    First off as a Ranger/Woodworker I think this is great news. (long overdue) However I have one concern. Could the change in arrows not being used with CA's effect the agility AA line critical hit skill? I kinda thought it processed only when an actual arrow hit the target. But I could be wrong. Could this change nerf that ability as a unintended side effect? Since less arrows are hiting the target? Anyone on test with that ability see any changes in the critical hit department?
  19. ARCHIVED-Arleonenis Guest

    if price to craft 99 arrows will be same as for crafting 25 arrows atm and same amount of resources needed than im all for that change (4 times cheaper to craft), if it isnt what the point? (for those that dont know atm crafting arrows fuel cost is similar to those arrows bought from npc vendor and as a woodworker i could tell you honestly that i wouldnt bother with crafting arrows even for personal use if it will stay at that price range... and even adding small crafting fee to that price will made them insanely overpriced... without getting any sane amount of cash to woodworker in same time so what the point to either side?) to get some numbers lets say very generouse woodworker will add 5gp for combine, it is very low when you factor time wasted on harvesting and crafting, try to find some t7 jeweler that will craft item for 5gp that do that for profit;) than your stack will cost like 11gp, so like 2.5pp for filling up dragonhide quiver, who can afford that for one raid? (with ammo consumption changes hardcore rangers will drop from 3-4k arrows to one (maybe less) quiver;)) if price will drop than it will be like 7gp top for a stack like 1.5pp for a quiver... still not very nice but doable for players to buy for raids and other high quality activities;) and will open up market for crafting arrows (not that i will craft more than for personal use and for guildmates anyway:p) and yes i like a lot not using arrows on CAs - that part is best gift we rangers could get.. other than endless quiver or ammo summoning bow from epic heritage quest;) so idea is good if it will be implemented right (fuel costs)
  20. ARCHIVED-Arleonenis Guest

    if its true this will be end of rangers as any kind of dps class... and a lot of pissed peoples will either change for assassins or just drop this game for good... what the point of ranger if paladin is much better dps?

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