The thing is, in a top end raiding guild like Disso, I would imagine that they have the stuff together. Debuffs are up, and everyone is doing what they need to be doing. Now I could be wrong here, but it would still be interesting enough to see if there was any overall increase in the damage output on my end in a raid like that. Would it make a difference? Who knows. We have 2 assassins in the guild, and both of them make the raids, one of them... well lets just say not so go, the other is up and down. Ive seen him hit 1700 in one fight only to come back the next with a 600 or 800 the next. Again, is this typical for an assassin? Or do our assassins just slack? If its typical, does the burst damage make them better? But if they can consistently hit 1700 again and again... they yea, there's a real problem there. It doesn't seem like it would be too hard, under a controlled environment (say a 2-4 min fight on a dummy mob with hitpoints for days), to tweak classes to fall in, around, or near the DPS they need to be at. But Im not a dev.. so what do I know?
Debuffs usually affect absolute DPS only, as they tend to impact people fairly equally. Relative DPS, we don't change much versus assassins depending on the debuffs. It's a different situation across classes, since debuffs could affect a wizard and a ranger very differently. Usually a raid doesn't move through mobs faster than most of your refreshes so DPS should be somewhat consistent. I notice my DPS will drop from 1000 to 800 for some fights, or such, depending on whether Rain is up, Veiled, Snipe, etc. Also, sometimes, you just get unlucky with a mob dying as you're casting. Given that most of our damage occurs with1 minute recasters, your DPS shouldn't fluctuate too much more than that unless your fights are happening quicker than the recast. Probably a combination, but I would call slackers on your raid People slack so much on trash mobs, unless it's always being checked.
We have a few assassins in our guild. They rock and yes, unless they are slacking they can consistantly hit the top 3 (I loath to put numbers here because raw DPS numbers has a lot to do with debuffs). Now in relation to them I can keep up ok and stay in the top 4 or 5 when I'm trying, but my ability to get to the very top seems situational. I gotta be spot on, no mistakes and the encounter *has* to be multi-mobs to get the max DPS out of Selection and Rain. I would say that we are still T1 DPS where we were T0 DPS before the nerf. But I think the main problem is that we're not the only ones on the top of the heap and we bring less utility to a raid than an Assassin does (at least they can in theory go in the MT grp and hate transfer, not a lot of utility but more than a ranger). So for a guild like Disso where they want to squeeze every last bit of usefulness out of *every* person they bring on the raid and "min/max" their raid setup, they look at a ranger vs and assassin and since the DPS numbers are roughly the same (maybe a little in the assassin's favor but not that much) they look past that. You can both do good DPS so what *else* can you do. That's where we stumble. And, uh, when did this become a thread about Warlocks? Message Edited by jwmaynar on 06-28-2006 08:25 AM
No. No. No. We are not "roughly the same (maybe a little in the assassin's favor but not by much)". We aren't even in the same ballpark as assassins. Any high end guild will accept a class as purely dps...if their dps is, in fact, high enough to warrant it. Assassins are accepted not for their utility, but for their dps. It's because ranger dps is only equivalent to rogue/brawler/mage/etc dps that the utility issue rears it head. Because when we can only equal or even fall behind rogues in dps, why not accept a rogue in the guild that has excellent utility rather than a class with mediocre dps and zero utility? If SoE fixed the gross dps disparity between rangers and assassins, the entire discussion of "utility" would go away.
If what you say is the case (and I do take your word for it ) then Assassins should look out because you seem to indicate that they are in a tier by themselves.
The funny thing is as of today the t1 DPS (and probably #1 among all classes) is berserker with buckler AA line. Especially after all those words from developers (back in t6) that wizzies must have more DPS than rangers cause we are wearing chain armor. Balance is broken after each expansion even more than it was before.
By your own words we would have the tier system, sorc, summoner,enchanter, pred, rouge,bard,druid, mystic, priest, brawler, crusader,fighter. Unfortunatly, thats not the way the tier system works. I really hope your being sarcastic when you say that. People seem to think that because rangers have an extended ability to go out of range of AE's (10-12s) that we shouldent be top dps, or that that class wears cloth and given all the abilities inthe world to not get hit.. But yet, we have to have the tier system in such a war that puts the pred in the middle out of this logic.. People are idiots, people cant read earlier posts about the tier system.
That's NOT what he is saying... Sorcerers and Predators are of the 'same tier'. Sorcerers should be higher than preds (IN THAT TIER) because they wear pj's. At least that's waht I have always believed. Summoner's and Chanters aren't DPS. They are pet class (which yes, CAN be DPS <T2> - or TANK <T3>) and crowd control (which should be IMHO lowest T3) Of course, this is in a perfect world..
OK, for those who dont understand "back to t6" = "back to DoF" when rangers were the top DPS class (according to developers). Now the top DPS class is BERSERKER that has even less sense than "rangers are the top DPS" (cause zerkers can wear plate armor - hahaha what a joke).
Sorcer's should not be higher than predators just because they wear cloth. They have plenty of other aspects that make up for this. They can do all their dps at range (Rangers have to joust too to do max damage), also they have buffs they can place on groups. While having chain armor is nice, I still get 1 shotted by epic mobs. As for solo encounters cloth or chain doesnt matter for them since they can root everything while we have to takea beating.
I wanna see how all these people do there dps after I shoot every tank in the eye, cut off all those fingerwigglers fingers, piss on assassin clothing so you know there comming, cut out the bards tounges, break that staff of pure magic, undo the mental bind between a summoner and there pet so there pet owns them... Then start watching people complaining because im ontop.
Frankly, you're not in a position to call someone else an idiot if you're still adhering to the DPS tiers "system." There is no system. It was a post by Blackguard in a forum and nothing more. A post which he has since attempted to retract numerous times and has outright admitted he was mistaken to write in the first place.
Now everybody does DPS just some have more util than others, or can wear plate, or... But at least it's not a tier! Heh. Why do I play a ranger again?
LOL.. too look sexy, of course. What other reason is there? Hmm. Maybe being hot could be considered utility? We're a support class now, baby!
Actually Jay it was MG who talked about it extentsively in ask SOE #37. He pretty much hinted they were redoing combat around the grouping system. MG was also part of a backroom group at the time so I'd give his word alittle more weight. There's also TONS of posts by multi SOE reps reinforcing the player deemed 'Tier' system. I'd say to come out now and say F' it there isn't a tier system when you designed the freaking combat changes in LU13 around it is a ploy to tell us to sthu!. Granted it's their game and they have the right to do what they want. They'll just get a face full of laughter everytime they make a statement about DPS or fixes they say they'll stand by. Cry Wolf anyone? Ok enough angst.. anyone else see Bongo's new comic? hehe http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/...d=spellart&message.id=69073&query.id=0#M69073 Falcon/Peregrian Kithicor Message Edited by leafnin on 06-29-2006 12:18 PM
