An Open Dialogue Regarding Forum Moderation

The players get the confidence that suspensions being done are rightful and not being done to shut people up silently. And of course that others can see why someone cant post for a while and see the reason behind it (transparency).

Aye, sometimes when someone normally vocal suddenly stops posting, we don't know if they've given up or been banned or what. Knowing that the person we were talking to/ debating with is banned for a few days would be handy.

I dunno Radarx seems to be pretty diligent on the forums and from my own talking to him I think this is actually a concern for himself and the team so I think he wants to be engaged in this conversation.

Mind you that's my own opinion as someone whose been scared off from the forums before, and in no way claims to reflect what may/maynot happen. I just hope everyone can keep this to a civil discussion and maybe actually get some head way on some issues that are bugging folks :\

I always had to laugh whenever I received a forum ban. "Please read the forum rules <link>" Um....I can't read ANYTHING...I'm banned.

I'm just waiting for a Mod to come in tomorrow morning, not notice the 'discussing moderation' amnesty in this thread and ban everyone posting here LOL... :/

I really, truely hope RadarX is sincere and does stay with this thread to the end, rather than doing what some doomsayers are predicting over at Reddit - that he'll set the thread going, answer a few people and then let the rest of us vent our spleens for a few days before shutting it down.

This is too good (and important) an opportunity to waste.

RadarX,

Forum suspensions are never done on a whim and usually come with a fair bit of warning. Any time one is issued, it is after a string of communication and in hopes that we open up a dialogue with the individual and reach an understanding of what our guidelines will allow. This is no different with Feldon and we are hopeful to see him back here soon.

I am some what confused by what you have shared here.

Here you seem to imply that suspensions are not knee jerk reactions. That when you or your team decide to ban some one from participating on the forums a fair amount of forethought and deliberations go into the decision making process. A ban is not an emotional whim or a vindictive lash-out. Am I correct in these assumptions?

If so, then if what Feldon (or really anyone who has been banned ) was so egregious to warrant permanent ban then why was it lifted some 24-72 hours after it was imposed? If his actions violated your organizations policies so much and to such an extent that you felt they should never, ever, ever be welcome here again - why the change of heart so quickly?

I am confused as to how you can justify that a customer's actions and behavior are so beyond the stated policies as to warrant a lifetime removal - - but then almost overnight reverse that decision? Would you have us believe that given the acts warranting a lifetime penalty that a day or two is enough to demonstrate good behavior and deserving of an uplifting?

You yourself admitted later in the thread that you were unaware of just how many times Feldon had been banned. Where is the due diligence in knowing the history before using that in your decision making process?

It is this sort of behavior and response by your and your organization that would lead me to believe just the opposite of what you put forth. Forums suspensions are done (and then lifted) on perhaps on a whim. That at times they very well might be vindictive lashouts against individuals who you do not see eye to eye with.

P.S. - I personally have no idea what Feldon posted that led to the decision to ban him permanently from the forums. He very well might have gotten what he deserved. I am not supporting whatever his statements were. What I am questioning is if it was deserving of a lifetime ban and the Community Team applied the due diligence of making sure that the punishment fit the crime which RadarX claims they do in his statement - - they why the quick 180???

Tbh, I wear my suspensions like a badge of pride. I've been suspended no less than 4-5 times across multiple SOE/DBG game forums. Hate us 'cuz they ain't us.

It certainly isn't an isolated observation FWIW. Thanks for having the spine to say what needs to be said.

The rest of you buying this 'open dialogue' nonsense should spend a couple of minutes with Google and see exactly what you're up against, if you haven't already. Really, just a couple of minutes will suffice.

It's probably a political decision. If it was any other member of the community, most likely they wouldn't bother reinstating them. However since Feldon's a crucial part of this community, DBG probably fears retaliation in form of shutting down eq2wire, which would end up with anarchy on forums, and very likely drive legions of players to unsub.

All that I just stated above is a speculation, of course. That is why I'm definitely in favor of full transparency/disclosure. If someone steps over the line and you consider them ban ready, then preserve the post of the person who got banned. In addition add detailed explanation (as part of that post), as to why this particular post has caused the ban in question.

I've never been banned before, but from what I gather from others who have, you don't get an actual explanation nor the reference to said infringement. If all you get is "trolling" or "off-topic" as an explanation, then this is as useless as it is counter productive. I've been crawling these forums for years, and I've never seen Feldon spam or troll. Quite the contrary, he's contributed more to this community AND the game then some actual soe/dbg employees, so forgive me if I don't take your word on the whole "he was trolling" explanation.

For starters there's no proof, because it was deleted/removed. If the moderation technique I suggested in 2nd paragraph was implemented, then we would have somewhere to start and see for ourselves where feldon supposedly crossed the line. But I fear such level of transparency will never happen, and that members of the community team will work tirelessly to prevent it from being implemented. Why? Simply because they would fear that if they try to ban someone on false premise simply because they don't like their criticism, community would be able to see for themselves this alleged post in fact doesn't brake the rule and would start an uproar.

Secondly, by now it is quite clear that dbg community team and the eq2 community don't see eye to eye on many issues, and some extremely questionable bans and post/topic removals have transpired in past couple days, some perhaps justified, but I do not believe all of them were. Some of these topics were even straight on the issue, nothing off-topic, style of discussions, but were suddenly dropped. I believe the "off topic" was a bs explanation, and that actual reason was an extremely harsh criticism of recent actions by new owners. Such behavior has reflected badly on the community team as whole and ensured that I no longer trust you, or consider you individuals capable conducting yourself professionally at all times. This is why I will never take your word on anything, unless you can provide proof along with your claims.

We may not be actual part of the company, but we do give you thousands upon thousands of dollars each year, doesn't that at least give us some right to call you out on decisions that will drastically affect us all, and claim that we as a community do not find such changes positive. Should I now fear ban every time I say something you don't personally agree with?

So, RadarX, you claim you want to have an open discussion and transparency? A lot of folks here and on reddit as well, claim that this topic is nothing else other then another veil PR attempt to let people vent for a while, before things go back to usual and this whole incident can be buried. I myself consider that individual as well, but I'm also willing to give you benefit of doubt. I only ask of you this question: Please read 2nd paragraph of this post and explain to us, why such method doesn't exist already? Are you willing to implement it and if not what is your reasoning. Please reply in length, don't just write a sentence or two. You're looking for suggestion on improving moderation, then why not start from here. If you find such method faulty, that's fine, but I would appreciate detailed explanation so we as a community can understand why it's a bad idea, and build upon that another feedback or suggestion. This won't get done over the night, but we gotta start from somewhere. Here's your chance to act as a community manager and direct this community in a constructive direction, which would hopefully end in a productive discussion without so called 'trolling' or 'off-topicing'.

Permanent bans should be an option used only for situations where someone violates serious rules, think against the law. Or in severe cases of abuse. Temp bans are more effective, but if you never communicate why in an informative way it's not going to help. Part of the problem is lack of time to do so, I know it takes a lot of time to treat a player personally and professionally. But that's how they should be treated and also, it's easy as a moderator for someone to hit a nerve. Take some time to cool off before the decisions are made if necessary.*spam bots not included ban them fiercely!

The community took a large hit when all the employees were let go, staff as well I'm sure. We understand that, but you should be a bit more delicate with us right now. If a topic goes off topic, or doesn't fit exactly as long as people aren't biting at each others throat let it slide. We do care about the game and having several not so bad conversations shut down doesn't let us feel we are speaking freely.

If a thread has turned bad just lock it and leave it so we can see why. Also as you say on reddit give it a chance to self moderate. Step in in needed to say hey, maybe we could argue less or something at least people visibly say you tried. I think people are reasonable in general.If it goes horrible lock it. Avoid deletion as much as possible and locking as much as possible.

Changes of as late have left us feeling even less to engage in the community that should really be for the most helpful people to come here and help others promote the game.

They can't. It'll burn our virgin eyes!

Asking for all posts deemed a forum violation to be kept open for public view, defeats the very purpose of the moderation to begin with. There has to be a line somewhere, or it is open slather to become what many people proclaim to hate (eq2flames, reddit, 4chan). At the end of the day, no matter where the line is drawn, some will complain it is too heavy handed, some will complain it is too lenient, and some measure of moderation will still exist. It is not possible to satisfy everyone.

However, better explanations are required when moderation does occur. I had a post removed early February, due to quoting a forum violation. This means my reply was OK, the issue was the contents of the post I replied to (and quoted). As the generic PM from the MOD only included what I typed (not the quoted text), I asked for an explanation as to why the post I quoted was removed. The response was "His post was considered trolling, at least a portion of it was.". I asked for further clarification on exactly how this was so, in order to avoid quoting such posts in the future, no answer.

In short, my communication with the MOD was a total waste of time. They did not answer my question in a satisfactory manner. And this type of incident is not a once-off, the few times I have attempted to get clarification from the MODs over the years, they have failed to provide any information of actual merit.

On the topic of immunity? No player should be above the rules. It should not matter if they are a random newbie, high end raid guild leader, or fan site operator. The rules are the rules and should be applied equally. The fact that some seem to think otherwise, is disturbing.

My quandary is that the use of reddit as a primary source of communication brings nothing new to the table.
Up/down voting is completely subject to the whims of the internet (to put it mildly). The results are by no means trusted numbers.

Using it as an additional source of communications is fine and tons of games/organizations use it as such. But the same could be said of twitter and/or facebook. A large number of companies use all three so it's not earth shattering.
The primary should be right here on the official forums though.
Due diligence should not be required to find out information from the company in question.

And shutting down the forums would not be a first for SOE. Back in the day they took down EQ's forums for a couple years before restoring it. I do NOT wish for that to happen again though.

If these forums had the traffic to require and alternate avenue of communications I would still suggest something under SOE's (Daybreak/CN/whomever is paying the bills) umbrella instead of seeking out an exterior venue.
But they don't have that kind of traffic so I feel it's a moot point and creating a solution for a problem that does not exist.

I mean I'm not a big fan of the current iteration of the forums (it's been shaved down too much) but reddit doesn't resolve the issues that do exist.

Jorm

How exactly would this defeat the purpose of moderation? If some post has incurred ban and there's an explanation for that ban, other players will see and will be discouraged from actin in same manner. If an entire topic is in breach of rules, close the topic and make the final reply where it's explained why this topic is no longer valid and if so, which rules is it breaking. This way players will know that any attempt to replicate it, would end up the same way and won't bother posting. I honestly can't see your point that somehow removing content is the only way to moderate.

I'm on a forum that allows the public to see exactly why you were banned. not only do you see if some one was banned in all posts they've made, but you can then look to see what particular post got them banned and the mod reasoning for that ban. It's very transparent and clear on what happened and why.

Different mods will ban for different reasons but you know what mods are on what boards and what triggers them. I will have to disagree that violations being open for public view defeats the purpose. A mod coming in and going "Hey guys pull it back or I will have to shut this down" SHOULD have the community respect the mod enough to pull back on it. The problem is we don't respect the mods. You give a great example of why in your own post. It's anonymous and random modding and they don't feel like part of the community.

Radar, other mods, if you are reading this, I am not saying you guys aren't part of the community nor am I saying you're bad people. I'm saying the actions don't give us happy feelings.

Because the bans (and suspensions) usually occur after several acts of moderation, and take past history into account. While I am not saying there has never been exceptions, that seems to be the general way they work.

Unless I have misunderstood, some people have asked for DBG to publicly advertise who got suspended/banned, and for what reason. It is my position it would not work effectively, especially if my understanding of most suspensions being applied due to cumulative effect is true. It should be a private matter between DBG and the individual, not DBG and the mass public.

If you read over the rest of my post to which you quoted from, I am all for DBG giving better explanations to the individual. I do not believe they should partake in public naming & shaming, which is an indirect byproduct of leaving moderated posts up and detailing why the poster was suspended/banned.

What forum?
If you're going to bring it up as justification for your position, you should be willing to link it. I would love to go have a look at what kind of topics they deal with, etc.

Can all random MOD_##'s ban people? Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the random MOD's were responsible for removing posts that were deemed forum violations, and that bans came from higher up the food chain. If I am wrong, happy to be advised of such. If I am right, then I stand by my existing position.

Just in case some of my post was misunderstood. If perma bans are generally not an option we do not need to know that someone was banned for 3 days or a week. If a thread is closed with a well worded reason as to why. Not pointing at a specific poster it's fine but at least there no question to what happened to the conversation we were having. I agree against naming and shaming. It's a horrible route to go.

Why not Reddit? Because it has way to many foul mouthed, mean spirited people posting over there.

To paraphrase one such post in the EQ2 area:
you are too effing dumb to be playing this game and should take your effing dumb donkey self away from this life.

After reading that comment I decided to never return to Reddit.

I can't believe in this this entire thread no one mentioned eq2flames (unless they did and i'm dumb). Flames was honestly the best thing to happen to this games community, without the moderation issues (hmm, awfully similar to the issues everyone is having now!) i can't wait until eq2wire forums come around