An Open Dialogue Regarding Forum Moderation

Discussion in 'General Gameplay Discussion' started by RadarX, Apr 10, 2015.

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  1. Nolus Well-Known Member

    I wanted to yell at you when the subforums got removed, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I said to myself, well this all has to be hard for them too. So I made a little harmless comment that I though would bring back some memories for you. I remember when you were working for ten ton hammer and a player like us. Same with Gninja when he was a player. Do you feel older now too? That was around 10 years ago.
    Wanderingbat likes this.
  2. Taysa Well-Known Member

    I don't see the one in charge of that stuff in this thread posting in here, do you?

    You must have me confused with someone else. I never shouted conspiracy. You might want to check your facts before you start throwing around accusations like that.

    What I did do was point out the hypocrisy of statements made and the absurdity of it all.

    This isn't the government. I'm not forced to buy into this product like I'm forced to pay your salary. But I do anyway because I happen to enjoy EQ2. The least the company can do is not treat the adults that play this game like we're a bunch of stupid 10 year olds.

    Yup. Wouldn't want that logic to seep in now would we?

    And yet DBG and apparently you still don't get it.
    NickStern likes this.
  3. Hammdaddy Active Member

    This parallels your posts a lot, the worldwide progression threads uncovered a lot of dirt about devs, exploits, and players. To say that flames was *just* a trollfest you are wrong. And the eq2forums have honestly never had GREAT advice compared to what could be found on flames if you went through the **** posts.
    edit: never forget when mogrim posted about devs being in fatality vent lol
    Filly67 likes this.
  4. Vainamoinen Well-Known Member

    Although I'm flattered that you want to make this thread about me, it isn't. This is way off course and perhaps should be reined in?
  5. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    except the problem is you DID reduce our presence, and then want us to use a forum that has a VERY easily gamable system. for example, you eliminated the Lore and History Forum. people like me venture there, and I know it wasn't a rapidly moving forum, and that alot of old threads get bumped. but that's as new lore and information gets found out. getting rid of that was like asking an archeologist to stay at a university, rather then go to archeological digs, because you know it takes a long time to find anything out there.

    you took out a lot of forums that gave some people a place to use for things that really did need their own forum. like the guide events, so that those threads didn't clutter up other forums. like the quest forum, so people can find information about quests that are broken, or where to start some, without have to dig through the Guide threads to find them, since the guides need those threads to advertise their events because they have to have X amount of hours a week doing events to keep their guide status. Off topic was for people to discuss things that are not EQ2 directly related.

    the RP forums, I cannot overstate this one, is a GREAT thing for rpers that don't want to be on AB for various reasons. EQ1 had it, and might still have it, in the Harpy's Head Tavern. it was a great thing. and can be a wonderful community building area.

    why not reddit? becuase Reddit offers nothing to us, or really you, due to the easily gamable system. if I wanted I could go there with my guild, find a thread about the Rum Cellar that says the Adv Solo is too hard for X class none of us play, and down vote it into oblivion because I don't think it's hard and don't want it 'nerfed'. we can give you hundreds of examples of it, and yet we see no viable reason yet why you want to add yet another outlet to have to dig through for information that SHOULD be here.

    As to forum only confusion is when someone does get modded in a can't tell. a post gets deleted, and then other posts that reference that one make no sense cause the post their talking about isn't I wouldn't mind a 'this post was removed for X' in some cases.
    Alenna, Brienae and NickStern like this.
  6. Nauralea Active Member

    *high pitch girly noises and hand flailing* C-ccould we?! I mean I understand they'd have to go through approvals but :eek: this would be such a fun thing for us to do as a community.. at least I think it would be I mean :) as long as they aren't like "DBG SUX" in big letters or something inappropriate like nudity etc?

    We could have a post maybe for submitting them? :eek: I promise not to knock things over and eat all the crayons! OR at least one of those things!? I mean are you preferring to keep it into the similar style of how the current ones are which seem to be screenshotted avatars with maybe a filter applied? I mean this would alleviate some of the pressure for people wanting custom ones which I would assume would open things up to image hacks which I have seen happen on other websites before but currently us being able to post images on here is kinda just as dangerous *shrug*

    I realize folks want to be able to have custom ones but at least being able to have new ones submitted for general use would be a pretty awesome dealio!!!!

    I like making things but I am not sure my style would fit here but I could do cute toony things I know I have drawn frogloks and ratonga and dwarves for friends(just have to find/scan) before I've been wanting to try to do Arasai/fae but wings terrify me :)

    Anyway example of something I would submit for an avatar if we setup an approval process <3 I would donate this to general use. It's not amazing quality, I'm not professional but eh free?

    okay back to catching up with the thread *scroll*
    Wanderingbat likes this.
  7. Nelie Well-Known Member

    This has been something I have always thought a mod would do. Sure, not all posts are able to be salvaged and should be deleted. After reading this though...

    As a mod, why don't you edit the post and leave the constructive part (if any)? Again, understandable if the post can't be saved completely. What I do not understand either is why you would have to consult with the poster before you do your job. Why not edit the post -then- message them with a warning to keep it constructive and why the removed part of the post wasn't constructive?

    To me, this says "I could save most posts but I just choose to take the easy route and just delete them instead." Just because part of a post doesn't belong doesn't mean the entire post should be removed.

    What is wrong with this type of moderation vs. the current moderation of deleting posts just because of a small portion?
    Azian and Pipsissiwa like this.
  8. Rotherian Well-Known Member

    Another possibility would be for the responding moderator (regardless whether that ends up being RadarX or someone else) to quote the post that was removed and highlight the offending word(s) that resulted in moderation (marked in one way or another - such as bold emphasis or underlining those words). All the player would have to do then is copy/paste the text, use the remove formatting button in the upper left, remove the offending word(s), edit the parts around it/them to make grammatical sense*, and then hit the Post Reply button**.

    * Although this part is apparently optional for some. :p
    ** Possibly adding back any quotes to provide context for the post.
  9. Lateana Well-Known Member

    I am opposed to custom avatars because they can be a nightmare to moderate. I used to moderate a guild forum and had to ban some really bad images. It seems some folks just don't get what is acceptable in a family friendly forum. Flopping naked breasts were the least offensive avatars I had to ban. People can get quite creative with racist, misogynist, and pornographic images within the 100x100 px limits.
  10. Charlice Well-Known Member

    Is that what 19 pages has led to? avatars? :confused:
    In all honesty I don't have many problems with 'most' of my bans. some were a bit silly i gotta admit, but whatever.

    I'm being a mother now though, and would like to genuinely thank Radar for swinging by and keeping up with this thread during his weekend. I know i wouldn't do that, I doubt many of us would.

    Also while I'm more than sure Radar uses his own words, he also answers to a higher power and we're best not to shoot the messenger ... too often.

    No matter what the outcome of this thread is, I'm sure most of us also appreciate the thread and your continued responses. Again, thank you.
    Ok that's all. Carry on.
  11. Avirodar Well-Known Member

    In the name of equality, do not forget misandrist images within the 100x100.
    Lateana likes this.
  12. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    I disagree with you on some things. certain forums can only move as fast as the game allows. the History and Lore forum, for example, can only move as fast as the game updates relevant info. yes, there were threads from DoV about Tserrina/Mayong and thier potential relationship, what might happen with Lenya Thex, what might happen if Firionia took her rightful place as Queen in New Tunaria. we haven't seen/heard anything after DoV about any of them until the Age's End event, and we only know that Mayong is pissed at us, Lenya is still at his side, and Firionia is apparently considered the Queen of New Tunaria. then in AoM, Tserrina shows up on the list as a raid kill. is she working with mayong? is she working against him? we don't know. but that thread is the place were we would consolidate information on those three figures.

    Could we do that on Reddit? probably. if we're willing to dig through miles and miles of gameplay threads and deal with the people who think RP/Lore is just meaningless drivel and downvote it so it gets off 'their' view of what should be seen easily on the forums. you took away a lot of subforums, forcing people into others, and making it 100s of times harder ro find what we're looking for, cause we have to dig through hundreds of threads that used to have a seperate subforum. (history and lore/roleplay/PvP, ect.) they might not have moved fast, and people might have added to threads that were years old because that was were the consolidation of information was.

    the problem with your idea about 'bite size' topics is that it doesn't work that way. I can't say 'give me more of X, without having reasons why it should be X rather then Y, or what would happen with Z if I improve X.'. like with poisons. there are what, 4 poison using scouts. the predators and the rogues. but the predators have diferent buffs that interact with poisons differently then the rogues do. so just upping poisons, doesn';t fix a dps disparity unless you take into account the AAs and the buffs and abilities that each class has, not to mention the cross buffs from bards or enchanters, for example. all of these can be used to say 'upping poison damage fixes Rogues by themselves, but then when you add in X and Y and Z, all it REALLY does is make Assassins into godlike deathmachines'

    which is why you get 'mega threads' like 'here's what's wrong with Scouts'. cause all the scouts have buffs that interact and work off eachother.
    NickStern, Mermut and Malleria like this.
  13. Malleria Well-Known Member

    While I might've accepted an argument like that in the past, it has very little relevance now. The community team is down to what, 3 people? Even if he's not the head honcho, he's not exactly part of a large structure. In all likelihood with a team that small the details will hinge largely on what he and the other staff who have direct contact with customers recommend. His boss probably doesn't give a crap about the details of moderation, just that there is moderation. His boss probably doesn't give a crap about what version of the forums is running, or what features they use. And while yes, he no doubt has to get the o.k. from his boss before he changed anything significant, I bet whether he gets approval or not depends largely on his opinion of the pros and cons.
    NickStern and Feldon like this.
  14. Charlice Well-Known Member

    Thing is we don't know really. We never will. And as transparent as we all want to pretend this thread is, you can bet quids it really is not. Just my opinion.

    The wrong people have been let go, that's all I'm sure of. They needed to start from the top.
    Malleria likes this.
  15. Pipsissiwa Well-Known Member

    As one who runs an Indie game studio (with successful Kickstarter and Greenlight) and who is an active part of the Indie Dev scene here in the UK, I hoped once DGB was formed and became an Indie (as they bragged about) that we would see a lot less of the Big Corporation mentality. We keep our backers and customers informed regularly of everything. We have forums. We are frank about time, illness, finances - everything, and are genuinely transparent. So are all the other Indies I know, big and small. The customers appreciate it and are patient and understanding - they are human beings too, they know things don't go to plan, or aren't possible despite the best will in the world.

    Communication. It is one of the many, many reasons so many people love Indie studios and Indie games.

    I know it is early days, but DBG still feels like it is owned by Sony. I know they just kinda swapped Sony for CN, but an investment company is not the same as a mega entertainment and electronics corporation. I agree with others who say many of the wrong people went. We need more people with an approach to the game and to the players like Ttobey - the passion and drive. And treating your players as rational, thinking, feeling humans, as family - without them we wouldn't gave a studio or a game, and neither would DBG. That's what you should get from an Indie Studio - not Big Corporation.

    And before anyone asks, no, I won't advertise here. I'm not that low. :)
    NickStern, konofo, Hijinx and 2 others like this.
  16. Feldon Well-Known Member

    As info...

    A white knight takes the points raised by other posters and boils them down to their most ridiculous components and then has a straw man argument with each point. They're not REALLY defending anyone. They're inciting negative responses for their own amusement and manipulating members of the forums to cause the maximum possible disruption. White knighting is not constructive because the subject doesn't really believe in the viewpoint they are presenting. They seek attention above all else and aren't interested in reasonable conversation.
    Noctew, Malleria, Filly67 and 4 others like this.
  17. Caela Well-Known Member

    Nope. Avatar-gate is just a symbol of the overall problem with the business culture of DBG/SOE. It just highlights the ongoing issue of lack of transparency, lack of openess, lack of respect for the fans and lack of communication as a whole.

    Avatar-gate could have been put to rest over 2 years ago if Red Names had been open with us then about why we could not have custom avatars (we had them on the old forums - we lost the ability with the migration to new software), why the built in feature of gravatars was a security risk. Instead we were requested to give feedback - there was an official Red Name created Wish List thread - we were told by a Red Name they had compiled our feedback on what avatars we wanted (every gender/race combo and class icons) and that we "will" be getting new avatars.

    Over the next 2 years we were basically ignored every time we requested follow up on the issue. Until finally Afista and Ttobey listened to us, and created the art work. Then all hell broke loose with the sale.

    Next up - this thread. I mentioned all that was needed was a switch to be flipped for Gravatars to be enabled. To which RadarX implied he did not know of any such switch - to which I pointed out where he could find it in the admin panel. He then replied, cryptically "Gravatars are not enabled on this forum". No reason why they were not enabled, we already knew they were not enabled. He later went back and edited the post to say they would not be enabled (and I didn't even see the edit until much later). And later when pressed, he said it was a security risk. He then left it up to Feldon to tell us why it was a security risk - and Feldon pretty much explained it wasn't.

    So - replace Avatars with just about any other issue - and you'll find it's much the same trailer, just in a different park. Same song, different verse. It's a symbol of the problem.
  18. Avirodar Well-Known Member

    As info...

    Like a number of internet expressions, the application of the expression can vary from one person to the next. In my time, I have seen the term white knight be used to describe a number of scenarios, but I have never seen it be used in the way you describe.

    My experience with the term white knight, usually involves someone rushing to defend/rescue/save either a friend/ally/associate/romantic_interest, either blindly (not knowing what has happened), or even if they know the person they are defending is wrong. The motivations for it can include (but not limited to) territorial, affiliation, personal investment or "physical" aspirations (even if one in a billion).

    It is my understanding that how the white knight tries to defend/save/rescue the perceived victim can vary dramatically, it is the goal not the method that earns the expression. With such, I disagree with your assertion.
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  19. Prayos Well-Known Member

    You should at least be providing the community with a reason for the banning. Otherwise you'll get a lot of threads pop up the next time you ban Feldon. That would save you loads of time from having to keep closing and deleting those threads.

    Don't you and your team already get paid for this? I mean, honestly. Your job title is "Community Manager". It's not "Community Manager and QA Lead" or "Community Manager and Software Developer". You're job is to sit there and monitor the forums for a minimum of 8 hours a day. Handling appeals would be part of that job that you're already getting paid for. It shouldn't be that hard to delegate "You take the EQ ones, I'll take Planetside, and Bob take DCUO." Honestly, what else are you going to do that is more important?

    Honestly, what ALL of this boils down to, or should anyway, is that we as a community, are unhappy with the moderation team as a whole. I've read some of the posts you'd made giving people exact statements that got them banned, and honestly, those are some weak sauce comments.

    You banned someone for one line that could have easily been edited out. Seriously? Banned for this? When you ban people for weak *** comments like this, do you know what you're telling your community? "Don't make fun of me cause my ego can't take even the littlest jabs. Do it, and I'll internet spank you."

    And this one? Seriously? These are just a couple examples that I'd found looking through this thread, and you'd posted more. The fact that a comment like that is against guidelines means that you're guidelines are entirely too strict. "Don't joke about mods, or you'll get internet spanked." "Be careful how you vent or you'll get internet spanked." "Don't type on the forums or you'll get internet spanked."

    You've said it half a dozen times: we're all adults here. It's time that the community team started acting like it, and stopped getting but hurt every time someone gets flavorful. In the end, its not worth it. There are far worse posts that you could be getting at. You'd find that you'd be doing a lot less work if you stopped getting worked up over the small little internet jabs, and focused on the more serious "You're face is stupid and I hope you ****" type comments.

    You've also stated that you're really only passively moderating the forums, and are going after high profile threads and reported threads. Honestly, when is the last time someone reported a thread/post that said "The mods are mean and don't like me."?

    TL;DR: moderate with common sense, and transparency. People will hate you less.

    Also, I find it funny that "Die In A Fire" and a word like "not see" is filtered, yet others aren't. Didn't you say we were adults here?
  20. Pariel Active Member

    Been following this thread since the start and haven't had the urge to say a lot till now. It may be just me, but I find the above stepping over the line a little. Yes, there are issues and "bad tastes in mouths" throughout this and yes there does appear to be a lot of anger and unhappiness with the way things have been, I've been banned myself (ProSieban = red rag to bull = angry posting).. but at the end of the day while everyone has a "job title", when you've just come out the other side of a load of redundancies, many people pull together and do things over and above what their "job title" says. I know for a fact that the Community team don't just sit at look at forums all day as I knew 2 of them that unfortunately lost their jobs a few weeks ago and I know the likes of Radar and Roshen are covering other things that isn't sat at a monitor looking at forums.

    Just my 2 cents.
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