A wizard's perspective...

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Daray, Feb 5, 2017.

  1. Daray Well-Known Member

    So I had given up on making these kind of posts a long while ago, in part because I just find myself caring less with the direction the game has been taking. And lately, expending any effort into doing so seems to be nothing more than an exercise in futility.

    But someone asked me nicely if I could, so here is my top <however many it ends up being> list, or until I get bored of typing.

    (1) Fiery Blast

    No idea why this is even an ongoing issue. It has been broken for a while and reported by others on numerous occasions. This has been the core ability of the wizard class for many years, so the issue being ignored is leaving the class in a ~broken state.

    The issues with Fiery Blast have been covered elsewhere in plenty of detail, but a quick recap is as follows:
    • A bug in the code is forcing moderate to higher damage FBs to reset/rollover/something such that the returns are a fraction of the true value. This was already an issue towards the end of the previous expansion and can be easily reproduced now.
    • Fiery Blast is additionally getting double-tapped by combat mitigation. Both the damage going into FB and then FB itself is getting penalized by combat mit, such that any returns are being cut down significantly (amount depending on combat mit buff package, which is a lot on higher tiered raid encounters). I recall FB double-dipping fervor resulting in a quick fix.
    • Fiery Blast already has a long list on inclusions/exclusions/restrictions, so an eye to keeping it current as combat mechanics shift would be appreciated. Some overall simplification wouldn't hurt either.

    (2) Wizard Epic

    Why are the wizard epic_2 abilities so terrible? I mean, really terrible...

    Fury of the Magus (Magelords?):
    • 5min reuse, 2.1s cast, 13s duration temp buff for ~25 fervor (at Ancient and at capped values)?
    • Basically, the ability is way off in terms of the balance between reuse/cast/duration/value.
    • If a complete overhaul of the ability isn't on the table, then the cast time and reuse needs to be significantly reduced (e.g. instant-ish cast / 1 min reuse capped), and perhaps even then also look at the duration or the value.
    • An appropriate enhancement to fusion might have been useful in the past, but (particularly with the current ascension system implementation) this really isn't the case.
    • Fusion is only worth 1-3% of my parse/output on any given fight. Assuming the added damage applies the equivalent of the primary hit (at matched tiers), then I guess we get to double something that is only worth 1-3%. Quite hard to get excited over that.
    • The functionality component (pbae to targeted blue) also doesn't add anything tangible really, because our positioning is already constrained by other abilities (Firestorm, Thunderclap, Blast of Devastation, Unda) which aren't modified. So nothing really changes there.
    • The (~10 at Ancient) fervor component seems to be a very weird implementation. It triggers on a Fusion cast (90s reuse if no prestige reset), and when you toggle the self buff. I find it hard to believe the intention was for players to toggle the buff (on a 2s cast/1s reuse basis) for a short duration small fervor temp. Seems a little absurd.

    Anyway, that's not to mention that fixed additive fervor is something that will lose value as the stat continues to get inflated. Although this is an issue that affects all classes, I guess.

    (3) Manaburn

    What was once another class-defining spell, has been left neglected for almost a decade. As a result, the left-side prestige spec for wizards has never been viable, even after the minor tinkering that was done during the KA beta. The code base to fix manaburn already exists, in the form of ethershadow assassin, so could be solved with an appropriately balanced copy/paste fix.

    (4) Ascension Gameplay

    This can probably be categorised as a more 'general' issue, but I will include it since it also significantly impacts the class gameplay. The premise of the ascension system is fine. The implementation, however, is far from ideal.

    We now have a bunch of long cast, long reuse, super-high damage generic abilities that basically dwarf any class profession spells in their magnitude by a factor of several times. The result of this, is that it significantly undermines/sidelines the profession class that you have chosen to play. In short, I don't feel like I am playing a wizard anymore, and instead I am playing an etherealist (with the added mini-game of who can temp up their ascension hits the highest). From what I regularly see, 60% etherealist and 40% wizard.

    The ascension system would be far better if it was something that only complimented your class, netting a tangible benefit if woven in with your class' existing gameplay correctly. If the design has been centered around faster (at cap) casting (~1s), reuse (~60s), and significantly reduced damage (~20% of current), then this balance between profession and ascension could be far better achieved. Really the damage output of these abilities should not be exceeding (by much, if at all) the damage of existing top T1 dps abilities (comparing ability tier equivalents, e.g. ancient vs ancient).

    Also worth mentioning is that letting people frontload so much damage into the start of the encounter, as the system currently allows, ultimately just makes for bad gameplay. Heroic encounters already explode in seconds through fully temped ascension abilities. Lower tier raid encounters without the panic script (or afk-inducing script mechanics) are pretty much the same story. And those higher tier raid encounters with panic scripts, well, we are still randomly pushing the panic script thresholds (which will become more frequent as we gear up).

    I will say that the cynical part of me thinks, however, that this design implementation might have been intentional to dazzle people with big numbers and encourage them to buy into the expansion and then ability upgrades.

    (5) Tithe Modifiers

    Wasn't sure whether to include this or not.

    The fact that the tithe system was changed to provide a multiplicative (as opposed to additive) benefit (to the itemisation progression aspect) is a good thing. Thumbs up there. Really, other alternate character advancement options (AA, some prestige, etc) would benefit from this treatment too, but I digress.

    The issue, however, is that the benefit seems on the high side relative to where the current game mechanics sit, at this moment in time. Game developers usually try to keep the attainable player/character power within a certain spread (no need to go into the reasons), and this seems counter that logic.

    The crux of the matter is, with how powerful the potency and CB (multiplicative) tithe modifiers are, and their low availability from other sources, their current value per rank ought to be reassessed. Alternatively, I guess another option would be to try and inflate a way out of that problem by throwing more of these multiplicative stats at other areas (a solution that seems to get used to prevent people crying 'nerf'), but I'm generally not a fan of high inflationary jumps in character power. Btw, this was just in reference to pot/cb... the STA/Maxhp option value is fine.

    (6) Class Balance

    No idea what has happened to the idea of class balance, but it seems to be more of an afterthought these days. And it really shouldn't be. Not everyone is satisfied with just playing the storyline, engaging with the game lore, slaying pretty pixels, and the other minor distractions like tradeskilling, decorating, achievements, exploring etc. Remember a lot of players look for a competitive element in this (and other) games, as well as balanced and engaging character development/advancement. For that to be successful you need to ensure as even a playing field as is possible, and as a priority...

    I'll leave it there, since I seem to be straying from the original point of this post.
    sarasi, Xillean, theriatis and 5 others like this.
  2. Pitta Active Member

    This also applies to Victorious Concerto, but as it stands no one is hitting the "rollover" cap on mobs that have combat mitigation. However, we will be hitting those values as stats continue to inflate. It will become an issue. Please take the time now to have foresight on the future state of the game as you implement game mechanics. It would save a lot of time and effort in the long run, and would save us a lot of complaining that we don't want to have to do.
  3. Schro New Member

    Thank you for taking the time to put this post together. I would love to see a dev chime in and address these issues. I just want to be what I am supposed to be - "The master of single target DPS."


    I feel like after I use my ascension in conjunction rising tide and all my other self buffs, I have nothing to do but wait until that stuff comes off cool down. The rest of what makes me a wizard is just a small percentage of my overall parse. Fiery Blast needs to be fixed. Manaburn needs to be fixed. Left side prestige needs to be augmented to make it attractive so there is at least a little variation with the class. Something needs to be done to add value to the other 90% of what I do as a wizard.
  4. Syota New Member

    It's a shame really. Wizards used to be a ton of fun to play. But now, it's really only fun if you don't look at the actual output of a wizard and just imagine that we are contributing still :)
  5. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    Much of the OP's same sentiments can be echoed from the Warlock version of the same situation.
    I support fixes to our Wizard cousins.
    sarasi, Apan, DoomDrake and 1 other person like this.
  6. Xellium Active Member

    Daray, great post and thanks.

    FB is bugged/broken, how this can go on without attention is a bit mind boggling to me.

    Epic abilities - Having to toggle Magistratus to get the fervor component is lame.

    Manaburn - Why has this not been updated to work similarly to ethershadow assassin?
    Fixing Manaburn would go a long way to making left side spec viable.
  7. Ashandra Well-Known Member

    Caith said there. Will be future changes to every class today in discord if that gives you some thing to cling to ......
  8. Healsu Active Member

    Well said Daray

    I don't play a mage anymore mostly cause I hated the way TM worked on chanters but I have been following the Wiz and lock discussions for some time and I do feel your pain. Class balance should be priority number 1 right now and I have a small suspicion that the new ascension nukes where in some way the direction DBG wanted to go to do that, Give every class the chance to hit big stuff. I loved the idea of ascension abilities makes me feel that my toon has obtained a certain status in the world of Norrath.

    I love this game I truly do and I have no intention of ever quitting again. No other MMO has the same feeling as EQ2, however I do agree that some things need some looking into or at least explained why they cant be changed from the DEVS. I was hoping the new ascension spells where going to add to my class some how rather being all about nuking the hell out of a mob with in the first 20 secs with every buff being up and facerolling it like it was greyed out. I love a challenge I love figuring stuff out whether its a script or how to best tune and gear out my toon to get the best out of him.

    What I would truly like to see is DBG take a big step back and look into class defining abilities like they where in the old and stop throwing all this new glitter and sparkles as a band aid. Ascension abilities should be there to define your class not change it.
  9. Ellimist Active Member

    Well said Daray thank you for the post.
  10. Nero Active Member

    If only there was another class out there that has had to toggle their myth buff clicky for the past however many years... oh wait a second!!!

    Keeping those fingers crossed for a class revamp.. At this point i would almost say "skip the next xpac" just put in all of your time into fixing the classes and making them great and different again. You wouldn't be the first MMO out there to have done that.
  11. Daray Well-Known Member

    Adding some context onto the last part of my original post. I'm just baffled when i see things like this in today's update notes:

    that results in this...



    I hear the story is pretty similar with the beastlord epic swarm pets, though we don't have one for me to see first hand. And lets remember that this is only part of the epic buff packages. I'll skip over summoners for the time being.

    Granted these were relatively quick burn fights, but it does still pose an obvious question though... why doesn't the wizard epic ability package have the potential to double+ our existing (ascension + class) output (vs a ~3% gain)?

    And no, that's not a serious request because it would be, and this scenario is, just absurd.

    I don't recall ever seeing the lack of class balance at this extreme before, and I have been playing the game for way too many years.
    Kioske likes this.
  12. Rondo9 Active Member

    There needs to be some serious action taken by Daybreak Games and immediately, what Caith said in discord is just a general statement, they are always making "changes" and future could mean months! This thread has been going 3 days now and barely got any traction, yet when they broke summoner pets there was 2 pages of posts within 24 hours. This clear shows that sorcerers are unfavorable class at the moment.

    Here is what BL pets look like Daray:

    When comparing myself to other mages my top parses are usually unda or protoflame if I dont use any ascension abilities, yet looking at others there "profession" abilities are top parses, balanced? I don't think so.
  13. Ashandra Well-Known Member

    I was trying to cheer you up a bit ,there's not many ppl playing sorcs to be honest I find them boring as hell but we summoners get on here and jump up and down as a community we also try to fix our class when things aren't as they should be not cry about other classes in game have bigger nukes then us nerf them now. The new blord pets will be bought down it would be foolish to think it will stay at this level.
  14. Rondo9 Active Member

    We arn't screaming nerf to every other class, we just want balance and fixes to our class. Using examples it just showing balancing issues, its not screaming NERF! and its not just beastlords now, they just buffed the assassin pet to do the same amount of damage as the beastlord pet.
  15. Earar Well-Known Member

    would thay ?

    right now it fells they just add stats over stats ... over stats. It feels like placing a nice painting over a crack on the wall just to cover it up.

    the sorc has issues and far from being the only one and nothing is done. There is certainly a lot of work and maybe DBG doesn't have the ressources to do it .. or they may just want the money and to as little work as possible, who knows ?
  16. Yards Well-Known Member

    It is sad that the game has become what it is now. The way ascension class abilities work is completely terrible. The extremely high damage and long casting route they took with ascension abilities is laughable and I have no idea what thought process they had when that pile of turds lit up above their head.

    The games class balance is in the worst state it has ever been. The dev's seem to be completely clueless on how to code new temp pets and they end up just making them do unheard of damage. Every time I read the update notes I cringe at what I read because I know that 90% of what is written in the notes will be massively broken. The saddest part about all the broken things that get thrown into live game play is how easy and how little time it would take them to test it before it made it to live. You can easily test all patch note changes in a few minutes worth of testing.

    I'm not sure how anyone can justify one ability doing more than half of their parse all while that one ability is also out damaging other t1's damage by itself. If this game actually can make it to another expansion I would hope they redo how all this nonsense they implemented into the game works. It's no fun to have one or 2 classes crush every other class and having ascension classes artificially inflate dps. There needs to be balance, there needs to be competitiveness between classes or the game simply will not last.
    Breta and Kioske like this.
  17. Errrorr An Actual EQ2 Player

    In case it was missed by people who aren't on discord, on Fiery Blast;

    Caith-Yesterday at 11:11 PM

    It's fixed for the next patch
  18. Syota New Member

    TBH, I'll believe it when I see it. I don't have high hopes on this considering how long it's been broken and how long it's taken to get a 'fix.' I'm sure it will be another 2+ years before MB is fixed. and probably another 2 years on top of that before the sorc classes are no longer jokes.
  19. Xellium Active Member

    Friday's Update;
    • Corrected an issue with Fiery Blast clearing the recorded damage value when it double casts. Fiery Blast no longer double casts and will instead multiply damage based off of Spell and/or Ability Doublecast.
    I was unaware that FB could doublecast.
    If the total damage recorded is now multiplied by double cast as it states, that's a move in the right direction.
    Only problem I see is that I'm not sure that it totally addresses all of the issues we have been seeing lately with this ability.
    Oxyian proved there was a combat mit double dip and I don't see that addressed.

    Not gonna complain, but fixing/buffing right side servers to make left side even less attractive.
    Fixing Manaburn still needs to happen to balance the scales,
  20. Daray Well-Known Member

    I'm sceptical about it being a doublecast issue, because we've been doublecasting for a long time and that problem only became an issue when damage started pushing higher values.

    I see no mention of the double combat mit penalty though.

    I suppose we will see tomorrow.