A Humble Plea About Future MMO's...

First off some of you might have seen me on here or around on other forums (if you've seen a "salty" it's most likely me as that has been my gamertag for 10+ years now). I started my online gaming career on C&C battling it up with tons of Koreans who taught me the meaning of owned online. My days of MMO's started with EQ1 around Luclin, which I played for roughly 5 years or so. Since then I have dabbled in just about every MMO there is out there that is mainstream. I played WoW for a few years steady and jumped to AoC, Rift, CoH, DCUO, EQ2, LotRO, and probably even more that elude me at the moment. That is just a bit of my background before I start this huge post.
I'm posting this generalization on the EQ2 boards because quite frankly I am a SoE fanboy overall after going through so many companies to date. It's either SoE or Trion at this point for me. Blizzard was a good company but since teaming with Activision and the fact their majority stockholder is their CEO it's no wonder it's going down hill for consumer satisfaction. SoE and Trion are the only two companies who, yes even though they are out for money...which company isn't?, seem to care somewhat about what the consumer wants and tries to fulfill their needs with the minor income that they have in comparison to that of which we call WoW. This post being primarily directed toward EQNext but ultimately any new upcoming MMO.
I really feel that developers overall are out of touch with their consumer base in terms of the MMO market. You have the new generations of gamers who are the "want everything now" crowd (instagratification). I don't think the consumers themselves or the developers really understand how little of a population that is. I know what you're thinking "AMG THAT ISN'T TRUE!!!" Well sorry it's very true and numbers don't lie to prove it. The vast majority of the MMO market and population throughout history show that people endure and love a challenge. They love the fact of keeping that carrot two feet in front of them at all times. EQ1's biggest hayday was during/around PoP expansion when I believe it reached 500k (honestly I can't find the info at the moment on the exact number just going by memory at this point). In reference to that point "but don't people say they don't like keys/flags progression?" Yes Timmy that is what they tend to say, but over the course of reading boards and playing these things we call MMO's I have discovered that in all honesty the consumer isn't quite sure what it likes. In one hand it wants the world handed to them on a platter but at the same time it wants to be the only one that has that special "world". I speak of the days when you saw someone run by you in really awesome gear and you wondered where it was from only to find out it was the top tier raiding gear or what not screaming "OMG I WANT IT HOW DO I GET IT!?!?" Nowadays everyone is running around in the same gear and being pretty bland and bored at the same time as developers dumb things down.
The point of my above paragraph is when making a game...why is the carrot attainable now? Why do developers consistently listen to their playerbase even though most developers know it is the wrong route to go? Just as in EQ1 the highest increase in population of WoW was during the release of BC. Mind you if you read the boards or any review it is one of the most hated expansions by the "casuals," yet had the highest gain. WotlK and Cata combined doesn't even come close to the record increase set by BC. These recent MMO's fail because they make that carrot attainable at a pretty fast rate, all MMO's at this point in fact. You want to make money from the MMO market? Give the public what it wanted since way back in the day. Give them a challenge that is nearly unattainable to most while still pleasing the casuals (meaning people that don't play a lot). Why is it we can't please the people who don't play much and the people who play a lot? And I don't mean showing them both the same content or rehashing zones/mobs over and over. I mean seperate content for the both of them that will occupy both genres. Burning Crusades in WoW was a perfect example of such happening when you had your 10 mans and then you had your 25 man flagged progression. The casuals could hop in Kara a few hours some nights and down a few bosses, heck they could clear it after the expansion was out awhile and then oh? what's this? ZA comes out to be the next thing for the casuals /gasp!
You companies (including SoE) for some reason think that following suite with what Blizzard has done is going to yield you the most return yet you are only looking at what they are doing recently which is exactly what has cost them a loss of subs. Why wouldn't you want to do what they did in the past or what you did in the past to gain so many? You say the MMO model has changed? Bull I say, it hasn't changed at all. The companies have changed their outlook on the gaming community and lost touch. You give me or anyone here a game that has good graphics, has a wide range of machines it can be run on, content that is endless for most, and a challenge to keep us busy with that content (that doesn't feel like a grind)...then you got yourself a MMO of truth worth.
Which brings me to my final point. In EQNext or any MMO the basis of a good one is as I stated above. A good graphics engine, content and loads of it, and a challenge with that content. From there you add in a good crafting system, housing, broker system, mail system, collection system, open world modifications such as Rift, plenty of raids and dungeons at endgame and early game, mentoring system, holiday events, gm events or such, dungeon finder type system AT RELEASE, battleground type system/pvp system AT RELEASE, maybe an interactive combat system like in AoC or something similar, pets. The list goes on and on but essentially take the best things from each MMO that has been developed and put them into one. Release content routinely (every quarter?), give us packed full expansions with lots of advertising (mind you advertising is a big part of making the $$$$), keep in touch with the community (not listen to their every word but "play the game" if you know what I mean). And SoE you have a really strong idea with this "create your own dungeon" thing. I'm not exactly sure why we can't have the dev tools to build dungeons as we see fit, have players test them, and then get voted on, then approved by devs and put into the game from say the top 10 the community voted on? Would save you money and give us what we want as we designed it and voted on it.
In conclusion and the point of this is....STOP FOLLOWING WHAT YOU THINK IS THE LEADER!!! WoW didn't get rich by dumbing things down and making things easier and their term "more accessible." They got rich by offering a wide variety of content and appealing to a even wider dynamic group of people. Stop dumbing down our games. Regardless of what you read it is not what we want. MMOs are about longevity it is why we pay per month and not just one flat payment like console games. Go back to your EQ1 Luclin/Planes of Power or your World of Warcraft Burning Crusades mentality and advertise the crap out of it and I guarantee you you will attract more players than you know what to do with. Servers will catch fire, light will shine from the heavens on top of SJ's bald head, and glory will be had.
Get your head out of your rears developers and get back in the game. I'm out.

*please do not Cross post the same thread in multiple forums*
The developers see it

salty21db wrote:

Got any data to support that claim?
Everything I see and read shows that players prefer the path of least resistance. You might find people talking about the good old days of corpse runs or endless grinding, but given the choice, they prefer to have less barriers in the game.
I suggest you view this presentation:
http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win
near the end it provides hard data that shows players who say they want things harder are just as likely to buy things that make stuff easier.
Slide 62:

Secondly there seemed to be a disconnect between what they were saying ‘I will leave the game and never spend a penny’ and what they were doing (sticking around and spending lots of money)We now no-longer think of the forums as giving us a chance to take the temperature of the entire userbaseWe think of the forum posters as a small but passionately engaged subset of usersThey play more, they spend more, they talk more, they socialize more they care moreWhen they panic about say balance or cheating, we take notice and do an data-driven investigation, rather than thinking this is how all players feel

Gravy wrote:

Depends on how you look at it. If a company is going for the easiest way possible to make a quick buck they may do one thing. If they are trying to desing persistent worlds were customers want to say they may do another. Go look at some of Koster's laws. (not all his own mind you, but a collection of ideas)

"Blizzard Entertainment announced yesterday that World of Warcraft now has over 4 million players globally, and more than 1 million subscribers in North America, making it the largest MMORPG in the region by a large margin. By comparison, EverQuest peaked at around 500,000, and Final Fantasy XI has a little over 600,000 players." End 2005
(Source for first paragraph) http://internetgames.about.com/b/20...s-4-million.htm
(Source to show the increase to 11 million 2 weeks before WotLK released) http://www.gamespot.com/news/6200145.html
(Source to show the highest population hit for subs in 2010..12 million) http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105...20018886-1.html
Since 2010 the numbers have been dwindling. This recent year alone (2011) they are showing sub number drops from 1.5-2 million overall. So again. The highest number gain was DURING Burning Crusade alone with the original game itself. WotlK and Cata alone only increased by 1 million max vs the 4 and 7 million gains otherwise. So where is your statistical data to show that people like the instagratification?
I can't find the information on Everquest and when it reached it peak but I was there when it happened as there were gm events held for the celebration. I know it was around PoP however. I was wrong on the 1 million mark it was 500k as shown in the above source quote. I adjusted the number in my original post.

To add to my last post also I had clearly stated in my story of a post that YES what you see on the forums and posts and what developers read is that sure....people like everything handed to them. By numbers however it is not at all true. Having that carrot as I stated always in front of you is what people seem to enjoy. As I also stated that they everyone wants the "world" handed to them yet everyone wants a different "world." Which by logical thinking doesn't work at all. Would you rather have all the gear to be attainable by easy means or would you rather have some gear difficult to attain and only see a certain few wearing it? Aka...the carrot.

*In reference to the gentleman linking the slideshow presentation...can't quote for some reason*

Never denied that fact and those are two seperate dealings also. The facts that you are discussing are "do people like a challenge" and "will people take the path of least resistance?" I know what you're thinking they are the same but they aren't at all. If you tell a min/maxer that he has to buy something for 40 dollars to be the best, he's going to do it. I'm a min/maxer in fact. Just because I take the root to be the best (which may be the easiest) doesn't mean I don't like a challenge to get there. Again as I stated in my post, it's not the gamers that have changed it is the developers. If a game makes the root to get to point B extremely easy...who isn't going to do it? But if they make that route to B harder then everyone is still going to do it just take longer to do so because everyone wants to be the best, it's why we play. Making things easier like developers are doing ultimately nullifies the entire purpose of an MMO, longevity...endlessness.

Dear Salty,

I don't want to appear rough, but after enjoying so many games, you should wonder if your gaming expectations are really the same than EQ1/EQ2 long term fans ?
1- You started playing EQ1 at luclin... You missed the initial release where each bit of level, each piece of stuff was an achievement. You missed Kunark and its perilous journeys. You missed Velious (which remains the best EQ1 extension so far).
2- You probably played EQ2 quite late after release if you started playing it 5 years after luclin (2007ish)

Basically, you don't spend much time on a game. You're more a bee than a addict player (without offense).

Most of the core players from my guild have been playing since Nov 2004. Most of us have been in the same guild for 5 to 7 years.
We made all raids for each expansion. That is what dedication is about. None of us left the game to test another game. Still, we didn't manage to complete raids from each expansion, despite 200 raids per year. We play for completion rather than surface testing.

You mention dungeon finder system. It's the worst feature. I have no desire to spend my 2 hours relaxing time with people I don't like and trust. MMORPG are social games. I don't want to restrict social to a dumb random algorithm which can't even match players. It took me years to meet, appreciate and care with players who became friends. I have no wish for soe to substitute my preferences with a automated system.

The only successful feature delivered in the last 15 months was PQ. It was a brand new feature, based on mutual cooperation. It unified people, it unified guilds to reach a shared goal. It also raised interest for raids. For several months, it gathered hundreds of players every hour. Helas... SOE didn't invest much on it (except for the druid/spire completion event) and didn't release any new PQ. Still I believe it was the nicest new addition to the game.
The nicest raid ever released for EQ2, I mean Roehn Theer, saw its designer fired. What kind of message to raiders is that supposed to be ?

What makes me really sad is how little player interest is taken into account. I'm working for a large corporate company which, every year, consult thousands of CEOs to understand their expectations. I can't imagine my company developing solutions that are not requested by our customers. SOE has no clue of what its customers base desire.
Why does SOE believe they understand us when communication is so bad ?
Official forum is less and less used.
(Not to mention that raiders have been using EQ2 flames for years instead of the official forums)
When did we have a poll on what we would like to see ?
When did SOE released numbers in terms of raids completed/new players/bosses killed/numbers of top players ?
Eq2players website with characters data has been malfunctioning for years, down for months. Do they care ? Did they communicate a release date ?

So, dear Salty, to come back to your point. I don't expect much from EQ next. It might be wonderful, it might be a desillusion. But developping a new game with no clue of what fans-base-players want is like driving in fog, you have more chance to hit a wall than reaching home.
Not to mention that historically, Norrath has always gathered a lot of different players.
Providing features for casuals PUG, solo players, crafters and raiders is very challenging.
EQ1 focused on the last category for years. That's were it found its success.
EQ2 managed to provide bits for everybody until DoV.
I can't understand why SOE doesn't want to share their vision with us.
A vision doesn't need to describe features in details. It doesn't need to reveal secrets.
Still, it could provide hints to who they target and how they will support their players.
Will raids be instanciated, contested, mix of both ?
What classes will be available ?
Will he have rigid group composition like we have at EQ2 ?
Will stuff be atuned or exchangeable ?
Will stuff have rigid stats or configurable ones ?
What's the target % of content for solo/du/group/raid ?

All these questions could be answered without betraying any secret.
18 months after 2010 fan faire, we got 1 clue of what to expect : graphic engine
We are all moving in a dense and absolute fog.
My loyalty to SOE is unquestionable.
I have been a paying my subscription since may 1999 and I now have 3 accounts.
Will SOE be able to deliver an appealing new sequel ? Not a clue.
But I doubt they have a clear understanding why I, or my guildmates, spent money for the last 12 year.

Emlar@Storms wrote:

I appreciate your feedback, however, your first paragraph almost seemed to attack me lol. I only stated what I played so you had a generalization of what I've delved into. I played EQ1 for 5 years as I stated and I played WoW for about 3. I don't really care who played longer on what game. I meerly was stating my opinion and what I have seen over the course of these years. I was a hardcore player, a min/maxer as I also stated. I went through PoTime....I went to the end in WoW during BC pretty much. That is why I looked for something else at the time. Games began to run out of content for me and EQ1 was getting old at that time, being the only game at its time that could keep me occupied. I actually started EQ2 when it first came out (didn't register on forums to 2008 ). I only played to like lvl 10-20 however as I'm sure you remember when EQ2 released it took a super computer back then to run lol. I was trying to play on my EQ1 computer however it didn't work too well. One of the many reasons I went to WoW at the time being done Time and not having much other options to go to. I had raided in this game plenty and have played it 4 years now and about 2-3 years steady. So overall I have been playing SoE games for around 7-8 years. I'm aware others have played it longer and others have played it less. Please don't talk to me about dedication lol. I'm not here to measure who has done what longer.
Dungeon Finder is just that...a FEATURE. Not something you HAVE to use. If you have guildmates or friends to run with, do just that. In fact that is what I do in games that have it...run with friends and pick up the occassional pug. You can modify that system by ultimately making a web out of the cross servers, ergo, making it where you can communicate with any server, queue with any server, do other activities with any server, etc. Making your game into one big server which is what a lot of people seem to want/like.
As for what features are "good." Just as in my post that is opinionated. I just stated what I have liked and what I have seen many others like over the course of time.
As for SoE being able to pull off a good game in the next one, that is why I'm posting this. In hopes that it would be read and taken into consideration. Just as why there is a EQNext feedback post near this one.

Well...forums aside. Most players in all MMO's simply could care less. All they want is for their game to work okay most of the time and come in and play and talk with friends.
Forums are where the malcontents and forumites gather to duel. Funny thing is...all of us are a distinct minority compared to actual players. Oh, we're more vocal perhaps. But the opinions here are hardly the majority.
If the SJ ever rolls out those game opinion polls they talked about earlier in the year...now those will be very interesting.
Raf

Raffir wrote:

I actually agree with that whole heartedly. One of my complaints in my post is just that basically lol. The devs have to know that as well and is why I question why they listen to their consumer base to modify their game when the majority of the consumer base feedback is on forums which is a minority? And it is quite obvious almost all devs do what the consumer says based upon forum feedback because you can see the way the game bends to what is said and not just this game a lot of others as well. Especially World of Warcraft. Cataclysm attempted to go back to a difficult setting, increased in population slightly during the expansion, is now dropping off since major nerfs and a change back to easier style after complaints on forums over and over again. Now the new expansion is "going back to WotLK difficulty" lol. As I also stated in my OP, SoE is following suite with that for some reason which makes no sense because "dumbing" these things down is what makes other MMO's LOSE subs. They gain subs when things are challenging with plenty of content.

I apologize if my statement was offensive. Cause it was definitely not my intention.
The point is some of us have been playing this game without any interruption.
We have been there for all the major shifts EQ2 went through. GU13 which completely changed the game.
Then the move around mitigation and avoidance, then the introduction of crit chance and ....
Every inch of the game used to be debatable on forums. Devs were providing facts, we were answering and our advise was taken into account.
All this ceased a couple of years ago with the long delayed tank balance during TSO beta
No more debate.
Everything is unilateral.
Look at how GU release drifted from once a month to once a quarter and now one every 4 months.
No debate. Take it or leave it.
So to go back to your point.
Whatever someones asks for the next game, it will only be what a few individuals request.
It will not reflect the community agreement, it will not reflect veterans' player whish.
It will only be a game designed in a ivory tower from a team of deaf devs.
And honestly, after 13 years spent alongside SoE, I was (foolishly) expecting a bit more.
Sorry again if you felt attacked

Emlar@Storms wrote:

NP. Sometimes typing can be tough to get the correct point across and gets misleading.
I agree that with SoE the developers consumer input turnaround is questionable. Which is sort of my point in my OP and it isn't I guess. I mean I stated that the developers shouldn't JUST listen to the consumer base and build the game around that as a lot of people on forums can be misleading as well. Kind of a balancing game with doing some things the consumer wants and just building your game how you want in the other hand.
Sadly, however, out of all the MMO companies to date as I stated in the OP it is either SoE or Trion that would build a game somewhat for the consumer and not just to cashcow (although they are leaning toward that lately). Why I made my post here in the first place to be honest. I did copy/paste it to the WoW boards but that was just to get some laughs at the silly responses I would recieve, which indeed happened. I am along side you being foolish most likely in hoping that ANY MMO company these days would release a product that the public would actually enjoy versus just releasing a product that is so dumbed down and lackluster that we could teach chimps to play them. I just can't fathom why all these companies think making a game easier and more "accessible" is what makes the money when NO MMO that has done that has prospered. The only time the games prosper is when a lot of content is introduced and it takes a good amount of time to get through it all. Again, Burning Crusades and Planes of Power. Instead of copying those they are copying Depths of Darkhollow and Wrath of the Lich King lol.

P.S. - I actually greatly remember the great taunt/hate fighter debacle of TSO lol.

salty21db wrote:

I think ArenaNet with GW2 will be a well received product. Since it only costs the box to play it appears they are still making games for their players and hoping it will be successful and profitable.
Looking around, it seems that CCP has maintained a good hold on the balance between gameplay and profit with Eve Online. They did faulter last year but the CEO stepped to the plate and apologized and it seems the company will continue to focus on core aspects and put 'barbie' stuff on the back burner.

There's a few different things to consider here, in reference to your initial post.
First, when EQ1 came out, the people playing it (and the very few other games like it around at the time) were gamers. You really had to be fairly computer-savvy, a true gaming nerd, an RPG fan and a fantasy geek to get on board and love the game. And that was good--that's not a criticism. But then WoW came out and lowered the bar on just about everything--computer-access requirements, knowledge of high fantasy, RPG's and MMO's; suddenly, people playing MMORPG's weren't just gamers anymore--they were anybody who could turn on a computer and download Blizzard's game. That, right there, changed the playing field forever.
It wasn't necessarily trying to catch WoW's numbers that every other game company was doing--they now had to make their games accessible.
Which leads me to my second point--the changing scope of the internet. The increased focus of the internet as a social platform--and a social-gaming platform--has changed how people view gaming; and, yet again, changed who plays games. So now MMORPG's have an entirely new segment of the population coming in to check them out that they may never have had before, and they need to learn to adapt to these new players as well. And with the social connectivity of the internet, people are looking to continue that experience through their MMO play.
And all that leads me to my third point. The original playerbase for EQ1 (and the other games around at the time)--well, we're getting older. I'll be 40 next month. We have jobs, and families and don't do all-night raiding sessions like we used to. Some of us, our reflexes aren't as hot as they used to be. Some of us want more diversified things from the game now. And some of us have simply drifted away. Now, there will always be, no matter what their age, a segment of the gaming population that wants things "hardcore", "challenging", "difficult", or "old school". But I hate to break it to you--that player is the minority now. MMORPG's aren't the secret castles they used to be, where we'd all gather to do battle while the Muggles slept blissfully in their homes.
Well, now the Muggles are here, playing side by side with us--they're our guildmates, our friends and they far outnumber us.
And that, OP, is where the Future of MMO's lies. With them, not us.

Streppoch@Guk wrote:

Fantastic post!
(Would you please carry these thoughts further, and offer new ideas into the "EQ Next Ideas" thread? I'd be thrilled to see them -- my favorite activity of the whole game-thing is reading about them!)

Fantastic post indeed ! And very good definition of initial EQ1 players.
The question is : After all these years, do you still belong to these nerds RPG-Lore-gamers class ? Or did your play style and expectations evolve ?
Cause I still fit into your definition.
But, it the number of nerds is large enough, it means there's a niche market.
Even better, a niche market with very loyal customers.
There is still RPG editors. There are still d20 builders. Couldn't we expect an mmorpg editor to work in this niche ?

As I stated earlier why can't a game appeal to both markets?
I personally feel that WoW did that with Burning Crusades as I stated in my OP.
There is nothing saying that a game can't appeal to the old schoolers and newer generation alike.

OP I think your stuck in fanasty land, have you even played the game for the last year? The auction channel is full of people who sell SC for plat who then turn around and pay some one to pl them to 90 and then they buy raid gear off the auction channel.
They days of working for your levels are over, if SOE was smart they would sell levels and raid gear in the SC store. They would make a millions times more money then they lost from the people who quit.
P.S. Myself I am old school I started in june of 99 and I dont know a sningle person who still plays from back in the day.

As far as MMO development goes, SoE actually has a fairly good record. Not only do they have some successes, they also have some failures. Hopefully they learn from their failures.
What seems to be the two most important aspects are:
1) Gameplay. Duh. If the game is difficult to play, people lose interest. Nobody wants to struggle with a clunkly UI. If you think EQ2 is clunky, well it kinda is but it doesn't prevent you from playing like some other (failed) games do. Now SoE could take some lessons on the fun aspects of gaming. While no SoE game is a grindfest like most Korean MMOs it isn't the same kind of fun your going to get with what I'd expect from a one-off single player console game. SoE would benifit from taking the time to study other game developers and see what works for them in that aspect. Letting the player feel like they ARE a force to be reckoned with and with regular frequency have them stomp on a bunch of minions on the way to a boss type fight is a good player experience. Dying to the trash mobs because someone wasn't being serious, intent and 100% focused isn't fun. A more balanced approach would be appreciated.
2) An engaging and developed end game. This is something that most other MMO developers have struggled with. Even WoW when it first released strugged with this. The successes that SoE has produced didn't have any problems with the end game. SoE is one of the few developers that seems to get it. Developing things for max level players to do for months is a high priority because people will do anything to get there quickly and then complain they have nothing to do if there isn't an engaging end-game play. I hope SoE doesn't forget this, becuase its the one thing they do better than everybody else.
If you can cover these 2 bases, you'll have a successful MMO.