A (former) monk looking for information on berserkers

Up until the big patch this week, a monk has been my preferred character. I could solo pretty well when I didn't feel like grouping and could tank pretty well when I did want to group. Of course, since the big agility nerf, I'm finding myself quite inadequate as a tanking monk. I'm thinking of re-rolling to another (tank) class while I wait it out and see if they ever fix monk tanking and was considering berserker as a possibility.

So I was wondering if berserkers had any problems soloing since the big patch and if they were still pretty good tanks? What stat/training should a berserker focus on? Anything else I should know about them before I get started on one?

Im surprised to see monk's throwing in the towel so early after being treated so well upto know, i do believe this is your first real " adjustment ", Berserker's have had 3 real " adjustments ", but if your monk isnt making you happy no more, and you want a good solo / group class to play, you have come to the right place.

I class us as very good tank's, we are very versatile Tank's, we can DPS, Solo, Tank, but we turely shine in groups of mob's, we can still tank single ^^ just fine, but we are more suited to group encounter's, our DPS shine's out in a group encounter because of our AE attacks we get. We are the next best thing at heavy damage to multiple enemie's beside a AE caster.

Use this chart to get some better insight on a Berserker and a description of skill's we get to select from :

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=6794

Have fun.

Taemek Frozenberg 37th Berserker
16th Outfitter
Co-Leader of Justice Bringers
Everfrost Server

Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
Five Rings on Luclin Server

How quickly would you throw in the towel if you saw your (and Guardians') damage mitigation reduced by half, while Crusader-types' mitigation wasn't changed at all? Moreover, despite screams of protest, comparative logs of battles before and after the patch, and logs comparing Warrior-types to Crusader-types, Sony issued a statement, "Working as intended," and otherwise fell silent on the issue?

Monks (and Bruisers) are supposed to be tanks on par with Guardians, Berzerkers, Paladins, and Shadow Knights, believe it or not. We were good tanks, able to compete with the others on an even basis. We had fun proving it, too, and were always ready to defend the "My Monk is a tank" statement.

However, Monks' tanking is dependent on Avoidance which, in turn, is dependent on two things: our Deflection skill and our Parry, Riposte, Dodge, etc. which is based on Agility. With the un-documented Agility nerf that Sony implemented on 2/1/05 our Agility-based Avoidance skills were reduced by half. As a result Monks are now, at best, second from the bottom of the totem pole where tanking is concerned (we can compete with Bruisers for tanking, that's it). Heck, Cleric-types take damage better than Monks do because of their Heavy armor. They don't have the aggro-management that Monks have but they take damage slower over time.

I suspect that Sony will, in a month or three, increase Monks' and Bruisers' Deflection to make the class viable again but not until they have had their noses rubbed in what they've done by witnessing the paucity of Monk and Bruiser tanks out there. However, even that will not wholly restore the class as Monks and Bruisers cannot aspire to improve their Deflection in any way except leveling. Previously there was a rich dynamic in the class as characters debated what gear to use: stuff that buffed Agi while sacrificing AC, vice versa, or a balance therein. That dynamic is gone and I expect it will never return.

Edited for spelling.
Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 02-07-2005 05:47 PM
Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 02-07-2005 05:48 PM

I swear, I ride the waves of nerfdom.

After the zerker-nerf I stopped levelling my Zerker to roll a Bruiser...then the agi-nerf!

I wouldn't recommend a Zerker anymore. They used to be a high damage tank now they
are just Crusaders with a bad temper. :robotmad:

I would recommend a Guardian. The damage increment of a Beserker over a Guardian
if not significant enough to justify the class. Choose a Guardian; you will be a benchmark
class and are unlikely to be affected with nerfdom.

I think pally's are probably the melee soloist's choice these days as an alternative. Unfortunately,
I haven't heard much about Shadowknights.

My Bruiser is L22 and I read there is a deflection bug that assists the class at this level range. Now sure
what level you are but the consensus seems to be that Brawler classes 40+ are a disaster and 30+ a serious
problem.

Card
Najena

lagerone you obviously havent seen how much dps berserkers put out with AE's have you ? I dont know how you compare us to crusaders when we can hold agro over that archtype so easily....

Pls dont put out misinformation like this on a class just because your disillusioned.....

This is how simple it work's, REGUARDLESS of what SoE tell's you, or i should say what Moorgard ( cause everyone know's Moorgard play's a monk / brusier ) tell's you, you dont wear plate armor, its as simple as that, if you did you would mitigate like we do. NOW, also let me ask you this, what was the point in getting a built in shield when it was almost impossible for you to be hit? Now you get hit more and get more use out of the built in shield's, and before you say that there was no relevant increase in getting a built in shield, then why would they give you a built in shield to begin with? Now you get hit slightly more, but when your almost bare skin gets hit, you have no mitigation, you still beat any class in the dodge / block / parry department hand's down.
It doesnt say anywhere that Monk / Bruiser's are on Par with Guardian's / Berserker's, that something that Moorgard told you, it doesnt say all fighter's will tank the same, OR be on par with each other. Monk's / Brusier's are the best DPS in the " fighter class " and they want to tank like a Guardian / Berserker ? Hmmm that doesnt seem to balanced to me. Sound's like what a Berserker used to be before the famous " Bloodlust Adjustment ".
Cleric's taking damage better then a monk isnt entierly ture, i take it you dont see a cleric or healer class type take damage much, my wife is a Templar and she drop's just as fast as you do, cause mitigation for her " Class type " isnt the same as a Fighter type simply because of the " Class type ", has nothing to do with Heavy armor, just like even if you could wear heavy armor your mitigation would barely change as well cause as soon as you click " Yes, I would like to become a Brawler " it all change's.
Acually Parry / Dodge / Block roll of there own skill number's, agility effects Avoidance, everyone gets Avoidance, there is no skill number for avoidance, avoidance is classed as a pure " miss ", not a parry, riposte or dodge. Now, Monk's get what is called a intiate increase to Avoidance for the pure reason there a Monk, meaning there ability to Avoid is higher then any other class, you acually have a " Dodge " skill in your skill menu, you also get a " Deflection " skill in your skill menu that acually increase, now im not sure about you, but Heavy Plate class tank's dont get these skill's. Now Riposte on the other hand isnt a skill at all, we get Riposte's in EQ2 by the way of short term buff's that give us the " chance " to riposte when hit, we dont have a accual skill in our skill menu's that say's Riposte (124) that increase's itself as we tank, the chance's of a riposte is purely based on what quaility level the skill is at, for example, App 1, 2, 3, Adept 1 etc etc. All tank class's get a riposte kind of skill in one form or another, meaning hit back when hit, but when a monk use's his riposte skill's in conjuction with his staggering stance skill's he not only ward's the tank, but also get his riposte's in also, which in turn mean's higher DPS again.
The way i look at a monk is there like a ward that can also do alot of DPS while bringing a range of group buff's, plus agro degenerator's, a superiour off tank for a Heavy Armour class Tank, if the fight goes bad, he can also back up tank, with a bit more aggresive healing. Now your probally thinking why do i look at monk's like this, well it's simple, the skills you get like your Staggering Stance line speaks for itself where u can acually absorb damage that is intended for the main tank but not take any yourself, I played a monk to almost lvl 30 so i got a pretty good insight on how a monk work's.
The thing the Monk community isnt seeing is they werent the only one's hit with the agility " adjustment ", everyone was, it only affected monk's so much more because they were so use to not even being hit EVEN after they got built in shield's, now they have been " Adjusted " while they stay in the Top spot for Fighter DPS, thay are at the bottom of the barrel for tanking abilitie's, pretty much the same a Guardian own's the top spot for tanking abilitie's, but lack the DPS that a Monk and Berserker get's, Berserker's dont tank quite as well on raid mob's as a Guradian does, but we control group's of mob's easier and with less effort then a Guardian has to and we also get more DPS then a Guardian, and fall behind a Monk / Brusier, so to me, it look's pretty balanced atm. Assassin's own's the title for Top DPS in the scout class, while a Troubador is at the bottom of the barrel for DPS but bring's the most group utility buff's to the table, it all work's hand in hand, no one is or will be the king of the mountain, and everyone get's more then there fair share.
Your basically going through the same thing Berserker's went through x 3 ( Berserker been adjusted 3 time's now ), you can ethier take it on the chin, and roll with the punch's and adapt, which is what most of the Berserker class did, OR you can reroll and hope you find some sort of solitude in another class like you once did in a monk if it hurt you that deeply. Im not sure if you Monk's seen it, but i can find the post where Moorgard clearly stated to us Berserker's that there WILL be more Adjustment's to come, this is quite clearly one of them and i doubt the last of them.
Taemek Frozenberg 37th Berserker
16th Outfitter
Blood and Ice
Everfrost Server

Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
Five Rings on Luclin Server
Some spelling issue's :smileysad:
Message Edited by -Aonein- on 02-08-2005 10:23 PM

Can still solo reasonably well, with good equipment and food you can do some interesting things solo (keep in mind though our dps really only shines in combat againts lots of mobs not solo material). So if that is your main criteria yeah you might like this class.

Aonein, I know I'm not going to convince you, so let me simply respectfully disagree.

... you dont wear plate armor, its as simple as that, if you did you would mitigate like we do.

Previously we didn't have to. Your mitigation and our avoidance balanced out so that we took equivalent damage-over-time. There have been endless debates over spike damage vs. steady damage, the most efficient healer-types for each class, etc. All of that is now gone because the nerf castrated our overall avoidance.

It doesnt say anywhere that Monk / Bruiser's are on Par with Guardian's / Berserkers ...

Actually it does. Yes, many of the comments are Moorgard's but there are also several Dev comments to that effect. Sorry, I'm not going to hunt them down now, I'll just assert it and you can believe me or not.

... my wife is a Templar and she drop's just as fast as you do ...

Perhaps I overstated; I haven't personally compared my damage-over-time to an equivalent Templar. However, your own statement damns the Monk; we shouldn't drop as fast as a Templar; we are Tanks and should take the least damage-over-time of all the archetypes.

The way i look at a monk is there like a ward that can also do alot of DPS while bringing a range of group buff's, plus agro degenerator's, a superiour off tank for a Heavy Armour class Tank, if the fight goes bad, he can also back up tank, with a bit more aggresive healing. Now your probally thinking why do i look at monk's like this, well it's simple, the skills you get like your Staggering Stance line speaks for itself where u can acually absorb damage that is intended for the main tank but not take any yourself, I played a monk to almost lvl 30 so i got a pretty good insight on how a monk work's.

If this is the way you want to look at a Monk and play one I certainly have no objections. However, many of us played a Monk to be a Main Tank, on par with any other tank, as SOE has represented we were from the start. Previous to this patch we could do that. Now we can't. Thus the massive desertion of the class; the only ones left are the ones who are willing to play the way you've described. Since this role is entirely elective (not essential) and not particularly efficient in a group few Monks will find groups to play in.

I'll also assert this: we can no longer back-up tank either. Our overall Avoidance is now so bad that if a situation goes south and a Monk tries to pick up tanking he/she will shortly be dead. We simply take damage too fast.

The thing the Monk community isnt seeing is they werent the only one's hit with the agility " adjustment ", everyone was ...

However, the Monk community was disproportionately hit amongst the Fighter sub-classes because we are so reliant on Avoidance.

... it only affected monk's so much more because they were so use to not even being hit ...

Precisely. That's how we used to tank, by Not Being Hit most of the time. As a tradeoff, when we were hit we were hit hard. Now we're hit as often (or, sometimes, even more often) as a plate tank and for much more damage than a plate tank. This makes us unable to be a Main Tank. If that is SOE's intent (I don't believe it is but you clearly do) then it'll stay that way, however in that case I won't be playing a Monk (and I am not at this point).

Your basically going through the same thing Berserker's went through x 3 ( Berserker been adjusted 3 time's now ) ... Im not sure if you Monk's seen it, but i can find the post where Moorgard clearly stated to us Berserker's that there WILL be more Adjustment's to come ...

Berzerkers got hit with nerfs to their damage capability. Correct me if I'm wrong but they haven't gotten hit with nerfs to their defense. I, also, expect more nerfs to come for the Berzerkers; their DPS still appears to be too high to my perception (although I have not studied the class hard). I wouldn't be happy with such nerfs but they wouldn't be class-breaking to me.


You see, Aonein, based on the many Dev statements (and, yes, Moorgard's too) I believe that all Fighters, regardless of sub-class, are intended to be able to be Main Tank and be good at it. I believe that SOE want(ed?) for all Fighter sub-classes to have an effectiveness at Main Tanking within about 5% of each other. You may boggle at the idea but that's what I believe they wanted and that's what I believe they had pre-patch with Monks, Bruisers, Guardians, and Berzerkers. They may have had it, too, with Paladins and Shadow Knights; I haven't been paying those sub-classes much attention. Now, however, Monks and Bruisers are definitely at the bottom of the list for Main Tank. Since that was a large part of what I was playing my Monk to be I'm not playing him anymore.

Heh, I wouldn't even mind being at the bottom of the tank totem pull. I do mind taking damage 2x or 3x of other fighters though

Prepatch we were overpowered, in my view; we could tank better than plate or at least the difference was negligible in the amount of damage taken. Now, when I look at my combat stats window, it is quite glaring that we have no business whatsoever tanking other than the fact we have aggro management skills.

A berserker is probably a good choice for a versatile tank/dps. Berserker dps is very similar to monks while taking half the damage of a monk while MTing.

Actually, SomeDude, I would argue that the difference between the amount of damage taken by a Guardian and a Monk should be negligible ... as it should be between a Guardian and a Berzerker, a Guardian and a Paladin, a Berzerker and a Shadow Knight, etc. It should be negligible (or a difference of no more than, say, 5%) between all Fighter sub-classes.

Some will say, "Then why have 6 sub-classes? Why not have just 1 Fighter class?" To which I reply: for flavor and fun. If you want wildly different classes then, as I understand it, you should go play EQ1 (never did, myself).

Edited for spelling.
Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 02-08-2005 12:02 PM

It doesnt say anywhere that Monk / Bruiser's are on Par with Guardian's / Berserkers ...
Actually it does. Yes, many of the comments are Moorgard's but there are also several Dev comments to that effect. Sorry, I'm not going to hunt them down now, I'll just assert it and you can believe me or not.
Heres a statement that says zerkers dont tank as well as guardians-- and we wear plate, so how is it a monk can tank as well as a guardian? I totally agree that monks can tank-- but they are not suppose to beable to tank like a guardian is suppose to. Guardians seems to be the benchmark for tanks.

In terms of damage output, berserkers are intended to fall behind bruisers and monks. Berserkers should do a bit more damage than a guardian, since they do not tank quite as well as the guardian--Moorgard

Not all tanks are gonna tank equally- but nonetheless can tank...

Brawlers have pretty insane dps ingroups, ive group with them many times and can out dps me nearly all the time. With having more dps, monks are not gonna tank as well as a guardian. I've been to the monk boards and there are pics of Gage, soloing the broodmother: I mean Come on! You guys must of known nerf was coming after us zerkers where nerfed. It might of been a little extreme though, but as time goes on will most likely be balanced out, since the uprage in the brawler community.

Berzerkers got hit with nerfs to their damage capability. Correct me if I'm wrong but they haven't gotten hit with nerfs to their defense. I, also, expect more nerfs to come for the Berzerkers; their DPS still appears to be too high to my perception (although I have not studied the class hard). I wouldn't be happy with such nerfs but they wouldn't be class-breaking to me.
And dont belittle the zerker nerfs, some of them were due, but we just learn to live with it... i know alot of zerkers rerolling on my server cause of the nerfs. If you feel that nerfing the ability of a beserker to beserk is no big deal then you have no clue about beserkers. I dont really care that they got rid of the agro from bloodlust--but they made bloodlust almost useless--it used to make a beserker almost and entire fight now it procs like once or twice a fight. But that does matter either now since most of the zerker community learn to readjust and found other ways to make us berserk. Its about adaptation and sticking it out. The nerf bat hit the monk community hard, if its too hard im sure there will be reabalancing. If you read alot of threads the High end game is all borked, so expect alot of changes.

I agree familyman, perhaps I wasn't clear in my post.


Havoc, I'm not sure what its like at your lvl, frankly I'm not entirely sure what it's like sub 40 because I didn't start parsing every fight until then, but as it is now, what I see is that all fighters do very similar damage. However, any fighter who is tanking, obvoiusly does less as he is getting blocked, parry etc and is taunting.

So if we all do similar dps, and have similar abilities, doesn't it stand to reason that the amount of damage taken should be similar as well?

a cpl of things - former 28 bruiser here - i heard berserkers were nerfed a cpl times - 3 times if your information is correct - i think it as mostly a lowering of DPS -
which i currently am playing a level 21 berserker and my DPS is great especially being able to wear heavy vanguard armour - i see no flaw in their abilities now.
On to the recent agility nerf on bruisers - which as you say get used to it we were nerfed 3 times- - well this agility nerf was game breaking - we went from being able to tank - to not being able to take on white con or blue ^ ^ mobs whatsoever.
As i said i may be missing something - but isee nothing wrong with berserks - in fact i am simply in love again -- ill miss my bruiser - as he was well equipped and performed very well. I have to wait to ding 28 on the zerker before i know if the DPS is diff - but right now the nerf to bruiser/monk was far more game breaking than any nerf i can see from a berserker perspective.
what were these 3 nerfs btw? as i said before i see nothing wrong with my berserker

I'm a level 27 zerker atm, dont get me wrong i still enjoy being a zerker. But group with monks my level and a couple levels lower then me who outdamage me easy and rightly so cause they give up some defensives skills to get the dps. It's gonna take some time for things to pan out. Look at EQ1, they where still panning stuff out before I left. "How long did it take them to fix the bard drum graphics?" hehe

Blood Lust, level 23 ability: 1. It caused beserkers to go berserk, was nerfed where you would beserk maybe once in a battle. I think this was where the huge uproar was.

2.

Blood Lust, level 23 ability: 1. It caused beserkers to go berserk, was nerfed where you would beserk maybe once in a battle. I think this was where the huge uproar was. Whats a beserker when he gets his beserk taken away from him where it became almost nil. At level 21 your not gonna notice a difference, and not playing a prenerf serker you probably wont. There are other abilities that allow zerkers to zerk, we just had to figure what worked thats all, and it just made us work alittle hard to berserk and get agro.

2. Bloodlust held insane agro, you can steal and keep agro off of anything. You could hit blood lust once and not taunt again. This needed to be nerf.

3. Rampage was nerfed, level 50 high damage AE ability: Restricted number of mobs it was able to hit and refresh timer went to 60mins.

I'm not quite sure what the third nerf was.

Sorry, reakshavoc, I disagree with you. Monks shouldn't outdamage you (and I've seen posts that claim that they don't) and Monks (being, after all, the defensive line of the Brawler class) should have a slightly higher defense than you (within, say, a 5% difference). Anything else will be, eventually, adjusted - at least, it will if SOE holds to their stated position, which, right now, they aren't!

Moreover, it isn't "rightly so" either. EQ2 is (supposedly) designed to appeal to a different player base than EQ1 and all sub-classes of an Archetype are supposed to do the Archetype's job equally well. Some Archetypes have some leeway because of the role they play (i.e., it's easier to define different sub-types of the broad Utility role) but the Fighter Archetype isn't one of them. All Fighters must do two things equally well to be viable in their Archetype: they must be able to hold aggro and they must be able to take damage at roughly equivalent rates. No exceptions, no give-and-take, those two aspects must be equivalent for every sub-class. Otherwise, inevitably, the sub-class that does better will become the grossly preferred one and/or the sub-class that does worse will become the grossly non-preferred one.

This is, I think, what we are seeing now and what this thread is about: Monks who were playing Main Tanks before are deserting the class all over and those who don't are finding it difficult at best to acquire groups in that role. Some dev is probably very puzzled why that is; (/sarcasm on) after all, their playtests showed that the class was still perfectly playable! (/sarcasm off) However, it will take some time for the situation to become OBVIOUS to the dev whose pet idea it was to nerf Agi (or to his or her boss) so Monks will be unplayable as Main Tanks for awhile.

To the one who compared a Zerker with a Crusader in bad mood............... LOL Have you ever played a berserker for starts?


Regarding a Monk / Bruiser Tanking as well as a Guadrian or Zerker........ if you 2 already have the best DPS in game (melee wise) if you could tank as well as a Zerker / Guardian you would be overpowered, wouldnt you?

Zerkers / Guardians have their place in a group, mainly to TANK. Monks and Bruisers have their place in a group to handle DPS (and try not to aggro mobs into them).

So you cant solo 7 group mobs now without being hit? I never was able to do that in the first place as a Zerker and yes, we were already nerfed 3 times and guess what? People are still playing Zerkers and loving it.

Bottom line is..... Monks are still pretty good both solo or in groups, ive seen Monks doing wonders in my groups. They are still a very valuable addiction to any group and pretty fun to play (judging from my fellow monk friends).


If you want to change class..... sure.... give it a go.... but nerfs will always happen no matter what class youre playing. Zerkers and Monks are very viable and fun, just play what fits your style more.

Why am I arguing this when it's no longer true? Just stubborn I guess.

To the one who compared a Zerker with a Crusader in bad mood............... LOL Have you ever played a berserker for starts?

No, I'm working one up now. OTOH I've never played a Crusader, either, so I can't compare from personal experience. I'm just quoting the Official SOE Position on all Fighters. It was true, at least when comparing Monks to Guardians and Berzerkers, until the 2/1/05 patch.

Regarding a Monk / Bruiser Tanking as well as a Guadrian or Zerker........ if you 2 already have the best DPS in game (melee wise) if you could tank as well as a Zerker / Guardian you would be overpowered, wouldnt you?

Yep, we sure would. However, that's not the case. We never did have the best melee DPS in game, to my knowledge. It may have looked that way because Guardians seem to hate DPS roles, particularly with a Monk in the same group being MT. If Monks were doing higher DPS than Berzerkers (something I doubt, given the posts I've read on this board) then I would expect Monks' DPS to get nerfed. Heck, I'm working up a Berzerker now and I actually expect Berzerkers' DPS to get nerfed sometime in the near future.

Zerkers / Guardians have their place in a group, mainly to TANK. Monks and Bruisers have their place in a group to handle DPS (and try not to aggro mobs into them).

Wrong. Not according to SOE devs, not according to SOE reps, and not according to the Monks who played, hard, up to 50 before this patch. Try telling this to Gage-Mikel or GangsterFist; they'd have laughed and invited you to group with them and watch them tank.

I'll repeat what I said above: according to SOE all Fighters manage aggro equally well and take equal damage-over-time. There are (supposed to be) minor differences in DPS and Damage-Over-Time but they are (supposed to be) negligible.

So you cant solo 7 group mobs now without being hit? I never was able to do that in the first place as a Zerker and yes, we were already nerfed 3 times and guess what? People are still playing Zerkers and loving it.

Please don't put words in my mouth or flame me. I am, quite simply, complaining that SOE has nerfed my Monk's Avoidance so that he is an inferior Main Tank compared to Guardians, Berzerkers, Paladins, and Shadow Knights. I never solo'd 7 group mobs either. However, groups would be silly to allow me to tank at all after this patch and that's not what I created my Monk to be.

Edited for grammar.
Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 02-08-2005 05:14 PM
Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 02-08-2005 05:16 PM

Who's putting words in your mouth? That Crusader remark wasnt even made by you in the first place and i've spoken in general terms regarding some things that were said in this thread.

Just one final remark:

When you see people shouting in /ooc group fighting xxxx looking for Tank or group fighting xxxx looking for DPS.......
who do you see being picked for each role?

To the Tank role i see Guardians/Zerkers/SKs/Paladins......... to the DPS role i see Monks/Bruisers/Assassins, etc... etc...


Why is that?

Do you still think a TANK is a Monk?


Look towards EQ1 and see the Monk role in there, i dont think EQ2 will be that different in terms of class definitions for that class.