6/28/10 - Rangers officially "fine"

Discussion in 'Ranger' started by ARCHIVED-Sydares, Jun 28, 2010.

  1. ARCHIVED-Nevao Guest

    Uncle, these are good to see, but they probably need to be posted over in Xel's thread as well (or at least the one with assassin and then a comment back to here so he can see the differences)
  2. ARCHIVED-jjlo69 Guest

    Nevao wrote:
    i did one better i personally pmed them directly to him with our raid break down

  3. ARCHIVED-Neiloch Guest

    Plus he only wants to see Rathgar fight parses right now.
  4. ARCHIVED-jjlo69 Guest

    too bad rathgar wasnt in the game before i betrayed i really like to se what i would have done dps wise on it

  5. ARCHIVED-irbiss Guest

  6. ARCHIVED-jjlo69 Guest

    irbiss wrote:
    LOL ftw
  7. ARCHIVED-kartikeya Guest

    Warning: monster post. The most important stuff is in bold, further down.
    I don't actually believe this is all Xelgad's doing. This is, while worded and presented differently, pretty much exactly the response rangers got pre-EoF, and I'm fairly sure during the Kunark arrow mechanics fix where we had that 30% damage nerf to our bows across the board because 'our internal data says you're fine so we can't possibly risk giving you any boost whatsoever' sort've thing.
    I'm fairly sure there are two major things happening here:
    1) Their internal data gathering is deeply flawed in some way. I don't know what way that is, and I don't know how it could be that their data, with easy access to every statistic imaginable I'm sure, could be so incredibly off from the reality, but something, somewhere, is messed up. This is the second or third time in years that a dev has come out and said, against reams and reams and reams of information to the contrary, that rangers are fine and don't need more DPS. This has been going on since Kingdom of Sky, and I am both horrified and fascinated that it seems to be continuing, because I can't comprehend what it is that's going on here.
    2) And possibly most importantly, I am 99% sure that this is not Xelgad's decision at all, this is someone closer to the top who stepped in and said 'you are going to give them this answer' and 'you are not going to work on this problem, you are going to do this'. This is managerial interference or managerial neglect, whichever the two, at their worst. For some reason, rangers bottom out someone's list on the 'not worth fixing' issue board. Possibly the person telling everyone else that the real focus needs to be pulling in new customers and streamlining the newbie experience.
    In short, I don't think it's actually Xelgad we should be angry at, and I think it's a symptom of a far, far larger and far more damaging problem to the game as a whole. So, while I'm sure the person or person's responsible will never read this (and may not even be on the EQ2 team proper), let me at least get this out there, floating in big bold letters:
    By throwing all of your focus into gaining new subscriptions and new sales with shiny new features that, while shiny, are not terribly deep or involved, while insisting that the dev team ignore long-term, deep rooted problems, you are behaving as though EQ2 is a single-player game designed to only bring in revenue through initial box sales. This is deeply flawed and deeply dangerous to the health of this game, because EQ2 is an MMO. This is a mistake many many many new MMO companies make, but you, SOE, and particularly the person or persons calling these shots, have a number of MMOs under your belt and years of experience, and there is no excuse for making this kind of mistake, let alone for perpetuating it more and more. A single-player game can get away with mechanics issues, bugs, and a shorter play life so long as they sell themselves well enough that they make a profit on initial box sales. As long as a person has bought a copy of a single-player game, that company has made all the money it is going to make off of that customer, barring expansion or sequel sales, and supposing they do not have some form of DLC model set up (which so far, has been less than impressive in any game it has been implemented in). An MMO cannot afford this kind of corner cutting, because an MMO lives or dies on its ability to retain customers so that it can continue to bring in monthly subscriptions and support server costs, development team salaries, and so on.
    Your first and foremost concern in any MMO anywhere at any time should always be player retention, and player retention involves regular game maintenance, bug fixing, an enjoyable and lengthy play experience, and CLASS BALANCE. Your secondary concern, while still important, should be bringing in new customers. Allow me to explain why: bringing in new customers means nothing to your longterm growth if you cannot keep those customers, and I guarantee you any customer who comes in and realizes once the shiny newness of whatever brought them wears off that the game's core foundation is in shambles with no real hope of fixing in sight will leave FAR FASTER than any established customer ever will. An established customer stands to lose time, past effort, and social connections, all things that will bring doubts about cancelling their subscription and keep them hanging around hoping for a change far past when they really should have stopped giving you money. Further, longterm players that do quit will often leave feeling very bitter about leaving said things behind, and will spread via word of mouth that your game is not a game that any of their friends, family, or coworkers should touch. While I have no numbers and only experience to back me up, I would be willing to bet that most of any new players that an established game like EQ2 gains are players that came here because they know people who play. If the people who play are unhappy, they will be warning those people off before you ever catch a glimpse of them. If, however, they give glowing recommendations, then that new player is very likely to stick around for a while, with a fair chance that they will stay for good even if the original player grows bored and leaves. If the original player becomes deeply unhappy with something, rather than just losing interest, they are guaranteed to take their friend with them when they go.
    All of those paragraphs simply say this: longterm player retention is your foremost concern because it will either make or bankrupt an MMO, any MMO, and class balance is an enormous factor in longterm player retention.
    Class balance can never be fully achieved, this is true. What is also true is that saying this is a complete cop-out, an excuse to ignore important issues because class balance is not something that will ever be 'finished'. Class balance is instead a journey, a thing that, like any other part of a game such as this, needs continuous, careful maintenance. Ignoring class balance because it will never be done with is like ignoring maintenance on your house because the necessity for house maintenance never stops. Sure, you can get away with it for a little while by turning a blind eye, but while you do those initial problems become big problems become giant insurmountable problems, and so when you're finally forced to actually fix them, they will cost you far more time and effort and MONEY than they would have if you'd just kept up with them in the first place.
    All of which someone who is making these calls should already know. It has been made clear that if you do know it, you are still ignoring it. Please re-examine the issue and see why you are hurting your own pocketbook, and let your development team do its job with appropriate direction.
  8. ARCHIVED-Neiloch Guest

    I don't care who specifically is to blame at this point. I do care that this current line of thinking will only serve to FUBAR the entire game.
    This isn't just a problem for rangers, this is a problem for everybody in the game. It basically says no matter how much data you mine and how many people you get together that agree almost 100% on an issue, it ultimately means nothing if they have some piss poor algorithm in the office that tells them otherwise. They may be 'hearing' you but they aren't listening and understanding. We present evidence and a plea and they just say 'well, you certainly said what you just said.' Not every player wish should be granted, but this is pretty overwhelming.

    What ever methods or line of logic you used to determine that rangers are as good as stated by Xelgad needs to be trashed. Immediately.
  9. ARCHIVED-jjlo69 Guest

    starwars and ffxiv comming out real soon

  10. ARCHIVED-Toball Tokor Guest

    crumpledmonkey wrote:
    And here I thought you were a mage, oh yeah you are. You are also a prime example of why talk is cheap. Yours is so cheap it is not worth the read. Let us see a parse wonderboy
  11. ARCHIVED-Sydares Guest

    I'm pretty sure he labelled it as a troll to get the inevitable reply out of the way - at least, that's how I took it.

    If not... welp.
  12. ARCHIVED-Toball Tokor Guest

    I don't see any way that they will take the time to fix our CA's, Bow issues or the ranged procs. It is easy to see that they have not read our posts or all of the numbers we have been putting up for them to look at for months no.... years. Evidently they can't even do simple math to compare the damage in the ca's alone never mind the procs that are not available to us. An any idiot should be able to see the error in grouping logic.
    They could easily address the majority of the problems with a little effort, I do not understand their fear of fixing what they broke and exacerbated over the years.
    Easy fast fixes that would give us a good deal of what we are missing.

    1. Up Hunter's Instinct's haste buff to be equal to the assassin's Villany DPS buff and take the in combat movement and make it a reuse buff. This address a major problem with our slow ca's and reuse. I don't believe it remove the problem entirely but it would mitigate it.
    1. On Focus aim simply take Nature's Bonus off of Focus and and make it a separate until canceled buff. It is a schitzo, freaky ca anyway with different timers on each. Heck have it use a concentration slot we have three free anyway.
    Mehh will never happen though
  13. ARCHIVED-Kilaak Guest

    and a new tool emerges. Going back to EQ my sig read: Absor "Your utter stupidity astounds me" Been a long time, but same game being played.
  14. ARCHIVED-nimbus2kgold Guest

    I never thought I would see the day I hung up my bow. However, that day has arrived. My ranger who has been my main since 2005 has now been shoved back to alt status. She may get out for the occasional group, or if someone needs something crafted, but I'm a mystic now.
    Thanks Xelgad for helping make this very hard decision a little easier.
  15. ARCHIVED-Writer Cal Guest

    Liviya@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    I will always remember the countless deaths with Livi back in RoK. RIP.
  16. ARCHIVED-Lleren Guest

    I've been mostly out this expansion.
    This just reinforces my descision to cancel my subscription.
    Perhaps I'll come back when its time to level to 100.
  17. ARCHIVED-akaglty Guest

    This whole thing is just stupid. I don't know how they get their data but, break it down to pure numbers. Rangers have slower cast speed, recast speed, less CA damage and our auto attack is less dps than using two swords. It's also pretty arrogant on Xelgad's part to pretty much say all the people that have been complaining this whole time are wrong and he is right, so nothing has been changed.
    I can't wait to talk to him at fan faire and hear his logic on all of this.
  18. ARCHIVED-Neiloch Guest

    What he needs to do is basically take the best of the best of rangers (whats left of them) and compare them to the best of the best of other classes and measure the gaps. I'm sure they have the data there. I guarantee other 'pure DPS' classes like sorcerers and assassins are beating them regularly. Probably even some rogues and summoners in there. No averages of every level 90 ranger versus every level 90 wizard or whatever. I can easily join some lower end guild or pick up raid and probably beat most if not all of them on the parse, unfortunately that doesn't really mean anything. Only that my equipment is way better and I'm probably a much better player. If you really feel the need to average it out then average out on the top end, not the entire spectrum. I consider myself high end and have nothing but free time until September, willing to do what ever testing to help fix rangers proper.
  19. ARCHIVED-Triscshadowreaver Guest

    Wow.... just wow...
    *Snaps his bow over his knee .. tosses it on the ground and walks away*
  20. ARCHIVED--=Hoss=- Guest

    The RP'ing there made my day trisc.

    I still think a best of the best raid on test server would be awesome. Forget just comparing rangers to everyone else, do a series of them to compare everyone. Pick a relatively easy zone with lots of meat, I'm thinking labs minus Pera'calis. Give everyone thier pick of gear from any mob in the game. On various nights, give some of the best of the best thier ideal DPS groups, and post the parses. Bet it would be fun. Too bad I'm not a best of the best, I'd just like to be in the middle of that awesomeness.

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