5 Steps to Attaining Your Dream Guild Hall

Thank you.

I actually have not done the earring quest line so I don't know what you're talking about there, but that does sound like an interesting idea. Now that you have clarified your explanation, this is an option I would totally find acceptable.

As for the counter-failure death, I better understand where you are coming from, but still think it would be better to have the crafter take so much damage per failure to counter, with maybe death after four fails, and maybe factor in at a much lower percentage, a chance for instant death upon any failure to counter. At least this would give some allowance for lag issues while crafting. For medical reasons, I actually find myself dozing while crafting, but this is a personal issue and I don't expect SOE to compensate for that. I have more failures than most people do, as a result, and it's just something I have to deal with. If I found myself having to repeat this quest over and over due to instant death due to failure to counter, I would probably just give up on it and walk away, or I would get very frustrated.

I don't know what it would take for them to implement those mechanics that aren't currently available, but those are also interesting ideas that perhaps could be implemented, to allow for the same risks that adventurers face, that crafters would also have to face, in order to keep things balanced. I would be all for something like that, if for no other reason than to appease those who would otherwise complain.

I have to disagree with you that the words challenging and crafting can't go together. The Lavastorm quest was listed as a level 45 quest, my crafter was level 70, the quest was gray to her, but she was only level 32 adventurer. Taking her into a level 45 zone at level 32 was indeed a challenge. Stealth was no good to her as the mobs saw right through it, so I had to find paths she could follow where she did not come anywhere near these mobs that were agro to her. I still had her stealth with the thought in mind that even if they could see through her stealth, being stealthed still reduced the chance she would be spotted. This kept me on my toes the entire time I ran that quest line. I was actually surprised I could even complete it, being that her adventure level was so low. There is no reason why they can't make 'challenging' quests for tradeskillers, similar to this quest line, and there is no reason tradeskillers should not have the option to earn their way into these halls either.

My first runs of LS were with characters that greyed out the zone. The rest of the trips, I had flying. Now, this is a one-off quest you're talking about. What if you were able to repeat it? Once you figure out the safe path, it's a trivial matter to get things done the next time around. The quest eventually becomes very dull and repetitive, but most of all, it becomes too easy. Even with the weekly quests, things have surely gotten to a point where you know which herbs are safe to pick. If we were in the old days, when you couldn't fly or run as fast, then you might be able to present a case for these quests being challenging.

Luperza #1 Community manager ever. Responses always make me chuckle

As for the situation, its been discussed heavily, getting irate and angry about it won't help, but constructive feedback in either of the two threads will.

There are many Guilds that have been around for 10 years, many are Raiding Guilds many are not. These Guilds do have Tradeskillers and these Tradeskillers are currently playing a very important roll in obtaining the High Keep Guild Hall.

~

My hope is that they will offer a few more options for new Guild Halls (an outdoor crafting area, Mara... anything, please?).

Maybe even a slightly different version of the High Keep (like, where's the outdoor area?).

I mean... a decade is a very long time to see the same old thing.

Although the guild hall is nice, it's not my "dream" Guild Hall. My dream would be the use of any prestige house. I think this would be something that decorators might like. And then, the ability to rate them.

How it could be done (that is, something to be worked towards) I have no idea. But, I do hope that this GH is the first step in a new direction on offering a true variety when it comes to the halls.

Just remember, the Kromzek prestige house was just as hotly debated as this guild hall. Now, it is available to anyone who has the loyalty tokens to spend on it.

I would hate to see this made "easy" for the sake of everyone.

There is no trivializing getting past wandering mobs who can one-shot you. Yes, flight helps, but even in the air there's plenty of mobs that can hit. I don't think I have a single char who has flown through GD looking for quest harvests or shinies and NOT been knocked out of the sky. Some survived it, but only the ones who were 85+ adventurer.

And flight does not work in most instances. Running doesn't generally work either, since you're in a limited space and the only place to run is into more mobs. Given that mobs will chase you a far longer distance than their aggro radius, the "safe" area of an instance like this isn't even safe once you get a mob's attention.

Yes, you can work out the timing of the mob paths to get around them, but that still requires paying attention and moving at the right time. If you don't, you're dead. Which, frankly, seems a lot like the scripted fights adventurers face. Cure this, don't cure that, move in close when the mob says A, get back when the mob says B; pay attention, make the right move at the right time, or you're dead.

So, what about the fact that a person can easily repeat any given task at least 9 times? I know not everybody has multiple crafters, but enough people do where this has to be a consideration, when they're thinking of offering whatever quest and reward they're going to give us.

To that, I will refer back to when I originally suggested this - namely, that I have 10 90+ crafters, and the Solstice Earring instances still have me sweating every time. I still have to pay rigorous attention when crafting summoning crystals for the coldain prayer shawl, or certain combines for the Quelthule Scholars, because even with those being simple crafting, missing one reaction art will kill me and I have to start all over again.

I am not talking about a quick "step in, grab this, make one item, leave" process. This isn't the TS apprentices. I'm talking something along the lines of zone into an instance of High Keep, find a group of defenders behind a barricade, find out the various things the defenders require, go creeping into hostile territory to gather resources scattered throughout the whole zone, return to the defenders, and craft multiple items (with credit of 1 per crafting completed, so mass production has no effect) for the different defenders under a time limit and/or with regular interrupts to do something else.

Possible scenario: the healers needs a ready supply of a high-woot cure potion, but the guys at the barracks need more arrows. You've got gauges for both over the appropriate NPCs head, and you have to keep both gauges above a certain level through several waves of attacks. Between each wave you have time to scrounge for more supplies - and while you do, the defenders take any resources you had left to restock for the next wave. That way you don't start a wave with the gauges low already, but you also have to go harvest again. You leave the recipe behind for them to work with, too (in other words, it's removed from your recipe list at the end of the wave), and asking for the recipe book back is the trigger for a new wave to start - you're taking over because the defenders are needed at the barricade again. Crafters have to regularly go back into danger for more supplies, switch crafting stations and monitor conditions. Maybe at the end of each wave the defenders are able to sally forth and secure a position further in, and when the keep, or one section of the keep, is cleared, the grateful defenders give you a reward which includes a heartstone per crafter. This would be an extended activity, would require repeated risk, would be easier but not trivialized by having other crafters to help, and would require the crafter to pay attention to multiple factors, as they will affect what work they do.

I don't know how many ways it can be said - we don't want these given to us. We want to earn them, with work and involvement and challenge and FUN.

who has the most points towards the guild hall at the moment?

7500/7500 - Already decorating

As I stated before, these quest lines could be 'instanced' and the option to mentor down to do them could be removed (ie@upon entering the zone, if you're mentored down, you would return to your normal adventure level and the zone would scale to your level, then upon leaving the zone you would return to whatever level you had mentored down to). For tradeskillers, the same would apply, so that you are facing mobs according to your adventure level as opposed to your tradeskill level.

As far as 'finding a safe path' to follow each time you repeat the quest line on additional characters, who is to say the pattern has to be exactly the same each time? Have five or six different randomized paths the trash mobs can take, with only the bosses remaining static for each instance (or even have the bosses spawn in four or five different random locations in the instance, which would change the path you take each time). This would only add to the challenge, since you wouldn't be able to rely on the same pattern each time you repeat the quest line on a different character. I just think saying that 'it isn't possible' to present a challenging quest line to tradeskiller's is a fallacy, and I am simply trying to offer suggestions that might help the developers to come up with such.

Seemingly, there is an impasse between what craft concentric and raid concentric guilds agree on as a fair method of obtaining this hall.

I think I might have an interesting idea that might not be that difficult to implement given that the mechanics are somewhat already in the game. Create a specialized guild hall designed specifically for crafting guilds to obtain! No, seriously, I mean it!

We already have the mechanics in the game if you based it on how the missions from Mara work.

1) Create an outside area that is filled with crafting stations and the NPC's that supply the fuels and craft materials specifically designed to build a crafting specific guild hall.

2) Put in an architect at a table with plans (multi-tiered quests) along with a construction foreman (components to be crafted). Crafting quests that require specialized recipes are given to make the individual components that will go into a final products used to progress the hall.

3) Just like in the missions, many hands make for faster progress. Six crafters working together with different occupational skills can produce the many components needed to complete the hall faster than one crafter attempting to cover all the occupations alone.

4) Each area of the hall in progress requires different components using harvested common as well as some rare harvests to complete. Some areas are far more difficult and require well seasoned crafters to complete.

5) The architect has the blueprints of the hall and can show the guild members how the progress is coming along. It's an arduous task the will take hours upon hours to complete and require skills from each profession yo complete some of the more complex parts.

Since this would be a crafter created hall, an interesting facet could be added. Upon completion of the hall, refinements could be added that enhance the hall much the same as raid trophies enhance some halls. Crafting decorative amenities added that are obtained by crafters working together to create special items.

Just a thought, but I think it could solve the arguments of who has it easier since both crafters and adventures would have a daunting task to create a hall that their efforts provided.

There is no argument to be had. It doesn't take much to see the clear difference in the efforts put forth by one playstyle versus another. Crafters always have it easier. Leveling, skill acquisition, gear requirements, questing. They practically draw money out of thin air. You never hear of crafters getting together for 3 hour sessions to do anything.

To me, it's obvious there needs to be a completely different hall and plan made available for those who favor that playstyle. A lot of people that would be doing crafting for their halls would likely be doing it on their own. I include myself in that group.

I disagree on the idea of refinements akin to raid trophies. I can't imagine them even coming up with anything just because there are already so many awesome bonuses built right into crafting characters. I think a simple hall of reasonable size is all that's needed. It'll be great just to have something different to look at.

Respectfully, could you please explain the "Effort"? It's a game and mashing buttons in a raid is really not rocket science, it just another style of play. Also there are many crafters that gather together and spend countless hours doing craft missions to obtain their goals and progress.

To go a step further, crafting quests are based on craft level, not adventure level, not to mention they are done solo which presents somewhat of a challenge when the area is 10+ levels above you.

I resent the comment of a "simple hall of reasonable size" sufficing. Why should that be if the quests are designed around challenging craft items produced over an extended period of time requiring a great deal of player investment much the same as the High Keep Hall.

Crafters drawing money out of thin air? I can draw a lot more coin in a lot less time on my adventure characters just using the chronomage and wiping a dungeon in 45 minutes or less. Just like adventuring, crafting for the big bucks requires a serious investment of time and platinum to make fast money.

As far as the trophies go, why should there not be specialized craft trophies to reward their hall for their efforts? I personally can't think of a single reason why they cant have specialty unique items that demonstrate their dedication to their playstyle that they can take pride in.

Respectfully, think out of the box for a moment. If the crafting play style has a larger goal to reach for, then more players might actually support the game that the raid crowd also enjoys. Many of us older gamers that cut our teeth raiding in EQ back in 1999 no longer raid. We solo, duo and group mainly as well as dabble in crafting. We look at some of the heroic rewards and realize that we no longer run with that pack. It would however be nice to have an epic like task that invokes our skills with a cosmetic type reward such as a specialized hall.

Effort: Coordinating with 23 other people to spend 3 or more hours to complete a particular zone. Raiding is not rocket science, but it requires a lot more focus than crafting. There's teamwork involved, which can be a challenge for many people. If you raided in EQ, then you should understand the great difference between what you do now and what you did before. I raided in both games. I've done plenty of crafting in both. I still only have 2 of the trades maxed in EQ1 and I never finished the first prayer shawl.

The fact that there have been people with 9, 24, even 65 crafting characters should be a major clue about what effort is. You don't see those kinds of numbers for adventure toons and they certainly wouldn't be maxed out in their stats. A person could only maintain one or two as a top raiding toon, where any old crafter can make any old item with no problems.

Crafters drawing money out of thin air isn't so much about how much they can earn in an hour's time, but the fact that they earn way more than they ever really need to get on any given day, whether it's the plat rewards on quests or scoring rares. The weekly craft quest is still far easier and takes less time to complete than a weekly adventure quest. I've taken brand new 95 adventurers through the advanced solo zones and those have provided a significantly higher challenge than the weeklies. I had to build up this great set of gear and even after that, I had to use a merc to get through everything. What did it take to beat the weekly crafting quest? A little patience and timing to avoid a handful of mobs, then it was back to the crafting station to whip up a report.

Trophies: Maybe I'm being too much of a grizzled old veteran, but I find it hard to draw pride from something any novice can accomplish. I look at the raid trophies in my hall and I feel a great sense of pride. It took weeks and months to earn all of those with my first guild and I had to wait a bit longer to even be allowed to loot each one.

I have thought out of the box. People do have some good ideas for what crafters can do in questing, but the idea that there should be extra features in a hall, when the HK Hall has none, seems ridiculous. We have our large goals. 75,000 combines amounts to a bunch of tables with a different skin. That's my measuring stick for what it is we can expect to see. (Note: the first to achieve this goal didn't even have to sit at their computers.)

Respectfully, the above points out where the problem of perception of different play styles lies. People pay to raid, group, solo and craft all to have fun and to be rewarded for, if you will, surviving the grind. Yet crafting, at least from my perception in this game, is viewed upon as something that is a necessary evil put in there to keep those simple minded folks incapable of playing the "real game" happy.

Crafters make more than they need? I look at some spell drops for my warlock and necromancer (masters) that are up there for 1,000+ Platinum, collection item completions for 50-200 plat, fabled gear drops going for 300+ platinum, selling loot rights to...well lots of coin. Yet you determined that a meager existence should be the life of a crafter since they don't raid?

There should be no trophies for crafting to create a special item that requires a great amount of time invested as well as coordination between trades because crafting is a "novice" skill that should not be rewarded? Raiding however deserves them because 20+ people spending a few hours following a script is a skill? Been there, done that, really not that difficult. I was in the top raiding guild of EQ1 doing the Time content first in the game as the lead cleric. After a few runs many of the zones were "farm zones". We even carried alternates through with the flagging and farming to gear up after the mains got what they needed out of the zones.

My suggestion was simple. Provide a different type of "Epic" reward for those interested strictly in crafting that appeals to their liking. Right away the suggestion is make it smaller and much less rewarding since crafting is for those who can't do challenging things in the game. Perhaps that's one of the reasons that subscriptions are dwindling. The days of raiding being THE real game have come and gone and people want to feel rewarded for doing something different and just as time consuming.

Raiding involves social skills and some degree of coordination and communication. I've been through plenty of successful and failed raids to know this. Failing to craft something is generally something that only happens when you lag. Coordination between trades doesn't compare at all, especially when you consider a lot of people are just playing through all their various toons to make one of those two epics. At no point is there ever any danger of having to start all over again, like with a raid.

To clarify my idea of a reasonable size, I think of T1 and T2 halls as reasonable. You have to understand the amount of mind-numbing work that's going to be presented to you if you want anything this size or bigger. You're only fooling yourself if you think you can convince anyone to provide a T3 hall for a trivial amount of work.

The way you throw around the word 'respectfully' is anything but respectful. When you try to equate one play style to another, you're seriously downplaying the effort it takes to run and perform in a raiding guild. But really, the history of rewards in this game speaks for itself. If you really want the nice things, you have to work hard at it. Let's not forget this is supposed to be a social game as well. If you could get all the cool stuff on your own in little time, it would be a very boring and short-lived game. If raiding was as simple as you say it is, we wouldn't even be having this conversation about a crafter option. People would all jump on board to take the path laid out by SOE and we would all be working on our HK halls.

So please, as someone who raided POT as a sever wide first in EQ1 with no voice chat enabled, no spoilers to look up and far less advantages to players than we have now, explain the huge effort put forth by raiders? You have to get people together that enjoy raiding and can follow directions. It's really not such a daunting task. You seem to feel that I'm disrespectful for not putting raiders up on an elite pedestal.

I spoke of a craft concentric guild, performing many tasks, with all occupations involved; not a single player gaining a hall in a few hours. Somehow though, even if it takes the same amount of invested time and participation, you feel an elite style hall should be only for the elite dedicated raiders.

Perhaps, since as you say its a social game, then the content should be designed around the higher percentage of non-raiders that play and support the game. Actually, I don't feel that way since I believe that every play style should have epic style rewards to be able to work towards geared to what they enjoy in the game. Whats strange about the arguments against trade folks is that in reality, the crusaders and armys were built around protecting the trade and commerce of the castles and towns. Most their time was spent on the road going from battle to battle.