We have the ability to spec into a tank line, we got abilities that can increase threat, we have passives that can increase threat and we can wear a shield, we have a defensive stance and Formation in the rogue tree.. There is also such a low population now and fighters are needed for contested everywhere. Make it work for heroic content only if the concern is that no one will bring a fighter to raid(they wont cuz we dont have the temps), but please, help the playerbase out so they can do content. Please.
Honestly it is hard enough to find a group as a fighter, even one that is fairly well regarded, if I'm not looking during prime time. Take Bulwark and give it to rogues, and what purpose do fighters serve in groups? Not that I enioy the Bulwark mechanic, nor that I dont feel for groups who can't get fighters to run stuff, but the whole point is that it is intended to give you a reason to bring fighters (because you literally have to) not just 'someone who can taunt'
Bulwark doesn't and hasn't required a fighter...Just have the healer cast a heal before the stun lands. Even if they gave you bulwark, tank stacks would still eat you unless you have enough dps to burn it before that kicks off(and if you have that much dps you'll also kill it before bulwark)
People keep telling me I'm the only person that sees no value in tanks; we can't possibly be correct as long term tanks stating that tanking is a role nobody wants on the classes designated AS tanks. In fact, FOE has been a revolving door of tanks for the almost 4 years I've been here AS a tank. I wonder why that is? It can't be because tanking is SO enjoyable and we make such a drastic difference in anothers parse OR bring enough DPS to warrant more than the bare minimum slots in any content. They haven't quit, they've changed roles. Most to a T1 dps or healer. Maybe I'm really just as dumb as people seem to think I am.
There really aren't that many mobs with that mechanic on them. Nor does it create desire for tanks outside the minimum. You take ONE tank. Most people want 2 healers, 2 utility, 2 dps. Because those classes actually bring value to a group rather than a mandatory mechanic (most groups aren't healing through Bulwark).
The point is a tank offers NO reason to be in a group outside tanking. I hate that I have to keep bringing this up, but why are 1/4 of the classes excluded from 2+ slots in a group? I also don't understand why the idea of "balance" for some reason removes tanks from the equation. Why should they want 2 mages, or 2 priests, or 2 scouts, but NOT 2 fighters?
Because there's only 6 group slots, we shouldn't want more than 1 tank given their role in a group. Regardless giving rogues bulwark or not does not change how easy/hard it is to run zones without a tank. All these mechanic attempts to make tanks "required" fall short, and don't actually do anything for why people would prefer to run with 0 tanks. We should want 1 tank for our groups, but no reason we should be wanting 2 for heroic content.
You're saying "tank", I'm saying "fighter". There's a difference. No, you dont need 2 "tanks", but there shouldn't be a reason why a 2nd "fighter" is a wasted slot. There just shouldnt. It's not equitable, it doesnt promote people playing a fighter class, it offers a singular role for a fighter class when everybody is in favor of EVERY other role )priest, mage, scout) having multiple roles. I don't get that. It doesn't make sense why fighters are the ONE role folks want pigeon holed.
I guess my question becomes: Why is it cool for a Brig/Swash to ask for Bulwark and the potential to Tank while also outparsing every Fighter class; but a Tank asking for the ability to buff a group or bring comperable dps to a Brig/Swash so out of line? I get that Crusaders currently have a very powerful ward. I understand that. The majority of non-crusader players are against that. I don't really understand how they can have that outlook and then turn around and support Utility classes parsing with T2, Priests parsing with T2 and bringing some of the best DPS buffs in the game, or T1s parsing where they do and offering substantial buffs and utility to their group. Like, explain the thought process that the Archtype Fighter means your SOLE role should be Tank. Why is that?
I just don't personally think bulwark matters enough to care - there's zero reason to give it to another class, but doing so also doesn't change much. I've never thought fighters wanting more is out of line - I do think fighters thinking they should do close to t1 dps is out of line though(and there are fighters who have that viewpoint, just like there's support and healers who think they should get close to t1 dps. Is the gap between dps and non dps classes dps probably too wide now? yes. Should non dps be close to actual dps? no) I still think fighters should bring more - I'd love to see offensive/defensive stances revamped a bit so bascially theres a 95% chance you die trying to tank in offensive but it makes the class kind of functionally as another slot(half decent buffs, decent damage differentially - still nto doing t1 dps but more than in defensive). I think that would be a good route for fixing it without them being "overpowered" by being able to do all of that while tanking.
I do think the 5s cool down on stoneskins/100% avoids needs removed. The above sounds great. Essentially trading dps for survivability, exactly like Wreckless used to do. Definitely not as powerful. Parsing with a Swash/Brig on ST would be fantastic. As for Bulwark, give it to everybody or scrap it. It's a crap mechanic. Nobody enjoys it, nobody wants it in game. IDK why they continue with it.
Yeah I personally prefer tank stacks to bulwark.....but I also think the locked to a player mechanic that tends to go with those atleast for h1/h2 content, should drop off sooner than the 4th stack lol. Though playing my tank, a mob that drops aggro and requires me to pick it back up, as easy as it is to hit 2 snaps, is more enjoyable than bulwark by a mile.
Except that in newer content, unless you can outburn it, Bulwark does increasing damage for every missed Bulwark. So, sure, you might survive the first, maybe the second, but you are almost certainly dead after that, no matter whether you manage the stun or not. I don't think I should outdps the T1 DPS, but what do I bring otherwise? You make it clear that you think a fighter is completely unnecessary for (at least) heroic content, excepting fighter stacks - Why would you bring me, other than my scintillating personality, if you have a DPS to fill instead? At what point do I have any utility that makes me worth the slot over a Conjuror, for instance? The problem is the spread is so wide now that 'not quite T1 dps' means you're behind by hundreds of billions of DPS, and multiply that by the healer, the power regen, the fighter, any support classes... I would absolutely support removing bulwark and swapping it completely for fighter stacks, *if* hate got a better revamp and it wasn't so reliant on DPS to be manageable. So many fighters can't do those fights because they can't manage their aggro, unless the DPS just sit on their hands, because they can't DPS.
When did this start? It was certainly fine doing the base xpac zones without a tank, if they didn't have tank stacks, and just healing through bulwark. You can't block the stun with immunity, so its just having stuff up when the stun hits. Done some of the contested h1 mobs without a tank or the dps to skip bulwark entirely just fine as well. I guess if they did do this, this certainly could make tanks more needed, but I still don't think that's a great fix. This right here was my whole point - fighters should bring more cause they need something to make em desired. The gap between dps and non-dps should is way too big, and it seems to keep widening, which hurts fighters the most.
I don't know if it was around the time ascensions were introduced, but something changed in the foundational dynamic of the holy trinity. Having a solid tank was a necessary part of any good group mix because they ... wait for it ... needed to tank. Healers healed and DPSers put out damage. The occasional support class was necessary most, but not all times. I don't remember crowd control being that big of deal in EQ2, but I never really played one to know. Power feeds, buffs, and debuffs were key parts of a group. I hate that everyone is now expected to focus primarily on DPS. It's just lazy design. I know it will never happen, but I'd love to see a return to game design that focuses on different types of toons bringing value to a group, other than just DPS.
1: "Can we just give rogues bulwark please?" No. 2: If you are surviving through barrages in Heroic 2 and 3 content, that's a bug. 3: In heroics, missed bulwarks don't cause barrages to get stronger (you should just die, see 2) 4: Heroic content has already shifted a bit away from every boss requiring bulwarks, and will continue to evolve to give both meaningful and purposeful experiences to fighters. 5: Stop asking for bulwark, rogues!
