Confirmed Effectiveness on Epic spells for multiple classes not working as expected.

Discussion in 'Bug Reports' started by Ejiju, Jan 2, 2023.

  1. Ejiju Member

    Everywhere we've seen effectiveness used (mostly AA), it has been a modifier to the base effects of an ability. 25% effectiveness meant a 25% increase in base damage (before potency/CB/fervor/other modifiers) and a 25% increase in other effects, such as buffs, debuffs, etc.

    Many of the abilities add some percentage of effectiveness to certain archetype and damage type abilities, but most not consistently with what we've come to expect from effectiveness, while others seem to work as expected.

    Troubador: 84.7 effectiveness at expert to mage/priest abilities of certain damage types, but when calculating abilities on a wizard, represents less than 8% additional DPS on the tooltip.
    Fury: 26.4 effectiveness at expert, but less than 1% DPS tooltip increase.
    Wizard: 60.06 effectiveness at expert and about 5% DPS on tooltip.

    Meanwhile, some classes seem to work as we'd expect.

    Mystic: 50 effectiveness at master to bolster and ancient bolster and the tooltip increases by roughly 40%. Expected to be less than a 50% increase because of existing AAs that already increase the effectiveness of bolster.
    Dirge: 84.7 effectiveness to scout/fighter physical abilities and the expected 84% increase to CAs that don't already have an effectiveness increase from other sources and appropriately less on those that do.

    Based on what we know of effectiveness from other sources, the Mystic and Dirge epic spells seem to be working as they should, although the Mystic buff to bolster affects only some of the aspects of the buff and not others. The Troub, Fury and Wizard epic spells however, are not applying anywhere near the effect their descriptions would indicate, making them incredibly underwhelming.
    Beee, Eufelia, Kodamungus and 2 others like this.
  2. Caith Developer


    This is incorrect. Effectiveness is fervor for a specific ability. It was even originally called fervor "increases Fervor of Kidney Punch by n", until we had enough feedback from the community that found it confusing and the name Effectiveness was suggested by the community in that same thread. It works the same as fervor, stacks with fervor the same way that other fervor increases work, the only difference between it and the Fervor stat is it is applied to specific abilities instead of the character as a whole.
    Twyla, Chath and Tyrval like this.
  3. Benj Well-Known Member

    Thank you for the clarification Caith. That said, can you explain why "effectiveness" seems to have such different effects in its different sources? As Ejiju said, there are several differences being seen (most obviously with troub vs dirge epics). Is this a bug where some spells are applying effectiveness appropriately and others are not? Is there a second form of "effectiveness" floating around, such that the word can apply to one of two different mechanics?
  4. BlubBlub New Member

    What he is saying is that it is inconsistent in practice. His examples are reflective to what we're seeing in game on our end as well.

    Mage/priest effectiveness seems to be pretty minor when stacked against scout/fighter effectiveness buffs.

    IMO the scout/fighter seems right to me and is encouraging alot of teamwork and coordination in our scout groups. The communication our ranger, bl and assassin are doing with their utility just feels amazing and impactful.

    The mage equivalents arnt' even worth trying to coordinate usually, as the gain from the buff is normally beat out by just casting the ability again.
    enotirab likes this.
  5. Kodamungus Active Member

    So Effectiveness is capped by Fervor Overcap or does it bypass the cap for the specific ability?
  6. enotirab Member


    Most of the community (or at least many of us) understand this. My understanding of the damage calculations for a spell may be outdated, but it used to basically Base * Pot * CB * Fervor (before mit is applied). More specifically, for a wizard, that would look like (Base * (1+ Pot/100) + AbilityMod) * (1.5 + CB/100) * (1+Fervor/100). The way I see Effectiveness being explained here makes it sound like a more accurate damage calculation is actually (Base * (1+ Pot/100) + AbilityMod) * (1.5 + CB/100) * (1+(Fervor+Effectiveness)/100), where Effectiveness may very for any given ability. Just looking at tooltips, this is close. Using a grandmaster Enhanced Ice Comet and examining Rays of Disintegration, the increase to Effectiveness of 65.52 yields an increase in the spell tooltip of 4.72%. This is only slightly off from the 5.36% expected for my current stats. That difference is close enough to explain away from other Effectiveness increasing adorns / AAs. So it looks like Effectiveness is working just fine (at least on tooltips).


    The deeper issue is that 5% is meaningless in a world where scouts are sometimes doubling sorcerer pares when equally geared and buffed. A 5-10% increase in damage for a time doesn't translate into 100-300% increases in an overall parse, but that's what we see in raid with scouts. Either something is not working as intended, or the intention is that mage DPS can kick rocks.
  7. enotirab Member

    It does not appear to be limited by fervor overcap. At least not in your tooltips.
  8. Caith Developer


    Correct, caps are not applied to stats applied directly to an ability, be they fervor, crit bonus, or ability modifier. Only the the character wide stat is modified by caps.
    Chath likes this.
  9. Moss Well-Known Member

    I believe everyone is afraid to be responsible for the hammer nerf, to give direct feedback.

    Take a mage and a a troubadour with new epic ability in a group, cast the troubadour epic ability and check the tooltip of the mage dps abilities.

    Take a beastlord or ranger and a dirge with new epic ability in a group, cast the dirge epic ability and check the tooltip of the scout dps abilities.

    Then correct the tooltip of the dirge epic ability or upgrade the troubadour epic ability to be equivalent to the dirge, or fix the mage scaling issue.

    Note: better make the test with real high end players copy.
    Denebi and Beee like this.
  10. Ejiju Member

    I appreciate your clarification on how it is intended to work, but I can assure that it is not in fact working as you describe.
    Beee likes this.
  11. Moss Well-Known Member

    First two are dirge + berserker
    The three below are troubadour + coercer

    Troubadour buff affect all mage abilities for the same value around 60 (some variation due to AAs)
    But dirge boost tank/scout abilities by 660+ fervor instead of 60

    First line is without Tainted blade/withering and without the epic spell (base fervor)
    Second line is with Tainted blade/withering and without the epic spell (base fervor + 65)
    Third line is without Tainted blade/withering and with the epic spell (base fervor + epic ability)
    Fourth line is with Tainted blade/withering and with the epic spell (base fervor + 65 + epic ability)
    [IMG]
    Denebi and Beee like this.
  12. Moss Well-Known Member

    Dirge + Ranger

    Very similar for all scout abilities

    Edit: we would need to do the same for all efficiency buff but it's not my job

    [IMG]
    Denebi and Beee like this.
  13. Beee Well-Known Member

    In some cases the real output is a little bit different to the planned outcome.

    In some cases the effectiveness is not noticeable (eg Conjurer Shadows AA - Pet Weapon Mastery should ride scout and mage pet effectiveness and does NOTHING) and in some cases it's a huge boost.
  14. Moss Well-Known Member

    AA effectiveness is a different topic to the original post about the new epic abilities.

    But you are right effectiveness values on AAs are not reliable at all (same for base damage, increase damage..).

    Note: you should not rely on tooltips value only, there are some surprise hidden in the game where tooltip and real dps are not aligned

    [IMG]
    Denebi likes this.
  15. Ejiju Member

    Fairly sure the recent patch on the Dirge ability just flat out broke it. Not seeing any difference in tooltip damage now when casting it.
  16. Bentenn Well-Known Member

    The Epic Spells is no different than just giving us AA's lol except without needing to do whole AA lines. Lazy way of doing it. EPIC spells aren't even that epic.

    Corrected an issue with Dancing Precession that caused it's effectiveness modifier to function as a level multiplier instead of a fervor multiplier.

    This spell was actually "EPIC", whether it was broken or not. This is how all EPIC spells should be Caith. EPIC. The reuse on this one alone is almost 4 mins. It's really only cast maybe Every other named in heroics now and in raids maybe twice on t2 and lower mobs. I"ve said this since day one of it being "Broken". This felt epic and was actually worth chasing, even with little to no information on how to obtain it, until Talad put together his post from "us", your customers. The rest of the classes buffs should've been the same. Now you just made the dirge one useless and it will get removed from the hotbars and quite honestly as it is, it's hard enough to figure out how to make it even ancient lol, so pretty sure these won't even be used. But hey it's your game, not ours and we're just the complaining customers, what can we say. ................we're just the customers....