Eliminate Weaponsmith and Woodworkers!!!

Discussion in 'Tradeskills' started by Meirril, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. Meirril Well-Known Member

    This is a really odd proposal, but I'm going to throw it out there anyways. If you look at the different classes in Tradeskills there is no bigger loser than Weaponsmith. Inherently it makes gear for 2 slots, and the most common rewards in the game are weapons. I refer to Weaponsmith as a "trail of tears and broken dreams" because its such a painfully unneeded class that the only time you feel appreciated is when a quest calls for things you make.

    Combining Weaponsmith with Armorer and just calling the resulting class Smith would be better for everybody. It really wouldn't add a lot to the Armorer, but the quality of life for Weaponsmiths would be a huge improvement. Also Armorers wouldn't wonder if they make Vanguard and Kite shields this tier or not. The only real downside would be that it messes up the 3 classes per archatype tree that the current scheme has. Honestly, is that a big deal? Not really. To keep quests working Smith should have both classes recipes and count as both classes.

    And if one class goes away, why not take care of the next weakest class too? Carpenter doesn't have a lot of recipes (did you think I'd say Woodworker?). Woodworker and Carpenter have this really game-centric separation. They both work with wood. What they make isn't that far apart. Anyways, if Woodworker and Carpenter combined they would both have more than enough recipes to be a respectable class, and enjoy a variety of demand for their products.

    Now this would result in a 2-2-3 class division. Something in my OCD says this is bad...but there are no weak scholar classes. I mean sure Sage lacks long term demand, but that isn't because of a lack of recipes or demand. It is because of the nature of buying spell upgrades. While this makes sage a bit weak, I don't think there is any need to 'fix' this. Or rather, there is no good way to collapse Sage into Alchemist or Jeweler. Combining Alchemist and Jeweler doesn't make any sense either. Though if I was going to be pressured into it, Alchemist and Sage are the weakest 2 of the Scholars.

    While I don't think its a good idea to get rid of Sage or Alchemist, if dev was bound and determined to make it a 2-2-2 class line up then I could see one of 3 scenario happening:

    1: Split sage between Jeweler and Alchemist. Jewelers get mages so they are for all DPS classes. Alchemists get priests. Now the big question is what class do all of the former Sages get to be? This is honestly not a good idea. Then again, none of these are good ideas.

    2: Super Sage: Alchemist gets lumped into Sage. Now sages make spells for 3 classes and alchemy. I almost feel like the new class should be called Alchemist, but out of the 2 "Sage" is a stronger class name. The only good thing here is that you know exactly what to do with all the former Alchemists.

    3: Worst idea: Alchemists gets lumped into Provisioner. (didn't see this one coming, did you?) Provisioner is a class that doesn't have a whole lot of recipes, and they make THE must have consumable in the game. Alchemists make a bunch of consumables. Combining the 2 seems...like a horrible idea. But it will make for a more attractive Provisioner. Honestly, it doesn't do much for alchemists. This does make quest recipes a bit of a problem since you'll have a combined Scholar/Craftsmen.

    In closing, if this idea is adopted, do not make a 2-2-2 set up. Leave Alchemist, Jeweler and Sage alone. 7 of the 9 classes are fine as is, but the 2 weakest classes could benefit greatly by being combined with the stronger version of the exact same class.
    Soara likes this.
  2. Krastis Member

    Couldn't disagree with you more. Obviously your not a decorator so you would say that about carpenters, I still use mine all the time. As for the weaponsmith, if your not a raider he is still needed. i use mine quite regulary for my low level toons.
  3. Nerkoon Member

    Whole crafting system is totally artificial: There is no reason why a smith could not do metallic weapons, armors and shields. There is no reason why carpenter could not do all wooden items including wooden weapons. And there most definitely is no good reason why spells are split between 3 different classes.
    Soara likes this.
  4. Marae Well-Known Member

    I also disagree. I have a weaponsmith who has periodically provided my various characters with some very nice weapons - granted, usually superseded by a quest reward or something I loot, but still very nice for the interim. And although my woodworker has been lagging a bit behind my other crafters because I've been focusing on other things, she has also contributed to my other characters' well-being.

    My carpenter is my FAVORITE tradeskiller, not only because what she produces can be used by everybody, but because it's often fun and interesting in and of itself (and yes, I am a decorator). I look forward to her new recipes more than those of any other crafting class. While it's true that carpentry in RL is a subset of woodworking, in game the are two very different skill sets. EQ2 carpenters already have more responsibility than real-life carpenters generally do, since they are in essence also stoneworkers, lighting specialists, interior decorators and gardeners. I don't think having them also make bows, staves and totems would be beneficial.

    If I were going to combine anything (and I'd really rather not), it would be woodworker and weaponsmith, since both make weapons. Indeed, the devs seem to have already shifted the arrow making from the woodworker to the weaponsmith in the latest tier. I'm not sure why they did that.
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  5. Marae Well-Known Member

    Not sure why this didn't show automatically as a reply, since I did hit the "Reply" button, but this is in response to Nerkoon, who slipped in ahead of me with:
    "Whole crafting system is totally artificial: There is no reason why a smith could not do metallic weapons, armors and shields. There is no reason why carpenter could not do all wooden items including wooden weapons. And there most definitely is no good reason why spells are split between 3 different classes."

    True enough, and the same could be said of the class system in general for RPGs. We all know that in RL skill and knowledge sets are very fluid.
    Soara likes this.
  6. Meirril Well-Known Member


    Combining the classes that make weapons doesn't really do much for woodworker, and while it is a solid improvement for weaponsmith it doesn't do as much as combining with the other metal/wood tradeskill does in either case.

    The main problem with weaponsmith is it crafts items for 3 slots. Adding in a bunch of nearly duplicate recipes for wood weapons doesn't tackle the central problem with the class. Armorer makes equipment for 7 slots (8 if they have shields this tier). Combining Weaponsmith and Armorer makes both classes stronger by giving them 10 slots out of 22 to make equipment for. Considering that Jewelers make equipment for 12 slots and scout CAs...letting the new Smith class share recipes for charms wouldn't be a bad idea as well. Actually making 1 charm recipes for every tradeskill would be a nice idea.
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  7. Meirril Well-Known Member


    So you're happy with the number of items you can make each level? Most crafting classes get between 4-6 recipes per level. Carpenter is strange. In some expansions you get the same 4-6, in other expansions carpenter got an average of 2 recipes per book with some levels you get 1 recipe per book.

    With Woodworker its more of the artificial feeling that the recipes are being padded by introducing multiple versions of almost the exact same weapon. in some cases this is good, but in many cases it feel like it was done just to pad out the number of recipes in a book to reach the low average for outfitters.

    Combining the 2 classes will give enough recipes that you won't feel like it was a waste of effort to chase down an advanced book that only has 2 recipes in it.
    Soara likes this.
  8. Mermut Well-Known Member

    Whether this is a good idea or bad, it would be a lot of work and, in my opinion, not worth the limited man-hours the dev team has available.
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  9. Mercychalice Well-Known Member

    I seriously wonder if you have ever tradeskilled in the game if you're making suggestions of splitting classes between others. Some of them could not be more different, and it sounds like you do not recognize the specialties of the classes. Carpenters have a HUGE array of recipes, and do not need the hundreds (or thousands) more added to their list from Woodworkers, and before you forget, woodworkers make projectiles and totems. They have merit on their own. Provisioners with alchemists? I dunno about you, but I'd hate to confuse if I'm making food or a fighter spell/potions/poisons.....paladin cookies? Hemotoxic monsoons? Sounds cute until you get a bite of armor or start burping skulls...Same goes for Sages and jewelers. Both of these have plenty enough recipes between making mage/priest spells or all of the scout spells in the game. They do not need the added weight of the other added to either. They are fine as is.

    The only point you made even remotely relevant is that weaponsmiths do not have a whole lot going for them, except at the beginning of the expansions, where handmade items are generally better than just-past tiers of items. That's when they shine. Other than that, they do tend to fall into the shadows of usability, where they become beck and call people for PotP and Coldain Shawl. However, our devs already have much on their plate attempting to appease us with current content as is, and I would not suggest a tradeskill revamp any time in the future over the idea of fixing broken class skills or quests.
    Quiarrah, Soara, Juraiya and 6 others like this.
  10. Flightrisk Well-Known Member

    I also could not possibly disagree more, but for a very different reason.
    In the recent expansions the developers have attempted to 'persuade' more of the adventure players into tradeskilling by requiring that the player be a level 100 tradeskiller to obtain an adventure reward, case in point their Epic 2.0 weapons.

    Woodworker and weapon smith are both perfect for this , with the ability to level to 100 via the tradeskill quest lines with little or no writ grinding , the low demand on these trade skill classes make them the perfect choice for players that "don't love this" when it comes to the trade skill thing .
    And even if you hate crafting making your own ammo and totems using mass production could be seen as easy and a benefit , or if you will, at least fairly painless.

    so don't do a thing to the tradeskill classes as they stand , they are just fine as is
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  11. Meirril Well-Known Member

    I'm honestly wondering how you can question if I understand the specialties of each class when I mention them in the OP as I talk about each class? It makes me wonder if you just skimmed the whole thing? Or would you like to point out which one you are referring to?

    Yes, Carpenters have hundreds of recipes. That is the major problem with the class! Both Provisioners and Carpenters have a low number of recipes per book and over 110 Tradeskill levels with essential, advanced and quest recipes they don't have the several thousand recipes the other crafting classes have.

    As for strengths, each class has its own production (obvious is obvious). Food and Drink are high demand. Furniture...is mostly self consumed. It can be brokered, but compared to other tradeskills you can sell handmade stuff for a profit, but you can't expect to sell much of anything and for very little profit on anything. Woodworkers have a small demand for totems, a moderate demand for ammo, and a very small demand for bows and wands. Dropped weapons are still better and easy to obtain. Mostly I think of Woodworkers as a Ranger class because Rangers are most of the ammo demand.

    The reason I called for Woodworkers to be combined with Carpenters is because Carpenters have a low number of recipes and a lot of the recipes that Woodworkers get could be eliminated since I sincerely feel that the only reason weapons such as knotted clubs, javelins, long spears and pikes exist is to pad out the number of recipes woodworkers get. If Weaponsmith and Armorer are combined to make a new class (smith), then if any other changes are desired its best to do them at the same time. Carpenters combining with Woodworker doesn't harm either class and only makes for a better crafter that handles all of the wood recipes.

    And if you are complaining at the number of recipes being a burden...you do realize that all scholar classes have dramatically more recipes than the rest of the classes? Each one averages out to 3 spells per class it covers per level, plus other recipes they produce. That means alchemist and jewelers get 18+ recipes per book! Sages get 36ish recipes per book! Sages get more recipes in 1 book than carpenters get for an entire tier. Does this hammer in the reality of what I'm talking about? That is the reason I think combining Carpenter and Woodworker isn't a big deal at all.

    And combining Provisioner and Alchemist: I did say in the OP that this is the worst of the incredibly bad ideas that combining any scholar class with another is. Every one of the Scholar combinations is just a bad idea and shouldn't be done but if it was demanded I wanted to give the cons for each choice as I could see it.
    Soara likes this.
  12. Deveryn Well-Known Member

    Carpenters should be left out of this discussion. They've always stood on their own and really came into their own when people started to get creative with flipping tables.

    Honestly, this is a conversation that should've taken place years ago, before they started on the whole trend of quests including all the classes.

    Rather than try to combine classes, there should be a discussion on what would make each class more worthwhile. This is really only about the outfitters and woodworker. Everyone else has their role. That being said, the market has gotten so saturated with how easy it is to raise a craft. Now, it's only a matter of spending some currency. For years, it's simply been a case of making alts to satisfy your own characters' needs and no one else's. Why change anything this late in the game?
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  13. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    Interesting discussion. Having all crafting classes and some even doubled up, I've been crafting for years like some of you have. Here's my observations: first, TS crafting used to matter a great deal and even had some value. You could make some damn fine gear (I'm using the term "gear" to include any craft-able item. That's changed significantly over the last few years. Now, even "master crafted" which meant something, is basically just an interim level between starter gear and "stuff" you get in heroic zones. Get the "starter" gear when you zone into PoP, get some stuff slightly better when you start doing faction quests, and swap out immediately when you reach the level to wear MC (etherstrand/rubicite/cnid) becomes available and mass craft darkstone jewelry. Start dumping that at the earliest opportunity if/when you're running heroic zones. Remember when the research assistant was actually worth something and could research some really interesting recipes? Let's put that aside and move on. Part of the appeal of combining certain classes (like armorer and wepsmith) and calling them a blacksmith is that it's one stop shopping. Where I think the real frustration comes in for me is--from xpac to xpac--it's hard to figure out who's making what when when it comes to shield making (class dependent), weapon making (class dependent), belts (is that a jeweler or a tailor this time around), and now we have arrows to contend with. While I understand games evolve, it should evolve based on logical decisions that everyone can understand, rather than what appears to be some random decision from someone who's clueless about what's involved. And speaking of logical, recipes for tradeskillers should never be a random drop from a dungeon. They should be earned through TSing, purchased off a merchant, etc. No English bowyer ever got a recipe for arrows or bows from killing a deer or an invading Viking. And finally, please have someone who understands not just crafting, but has some common sense to check icons selected to represent crafted items. In other words, they can instantly recognize that a pair of greaves is not shoulders, nor a long bow a crossbow. Like the OP, I think the 3/3/3 breakdown is no longer necessary, but that doesn't mean mass combining TSing classes that doesn't make sense. Armorer/wepsmith--yeah, that makes sense. Combining carpenter and woodworker, I'd need to think about that one, but yes, it's a possibility. Alchemist and sage combined, no. If you could work out a system that combined the "class spells" that made sense...maybe. Mage/priest done by sage makes sense. Alchemist making fighter spells and jeweler scout, not so much. But as someone mentioned earlier, that would have made sense with a dedicated working staff. In today's environment, with so few devs, I don't see it happening.
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  14. Deveryn Well-Known Member

    Perceived value of crafted gear has changed as they've tried different things and they haven't exactly worked out. Reactant gear comes to mind. It was nice for a while, back when leveling up actually took some time. They've had to make adjustments so people can get up to the top tier faster.

    Research assistants were an attempt at gating quality gear. That didn't really work out and anyone making a return had some long wait times ahead.

    As someone who doesn't always keep his alts up to date, I think it's great that MC gear is there as a bridge into the next tier.

    It would be nice if recipe books were more exclusive to crafting ventures than filling up adventurer bags. :p I feel like they just started dropping on more overworld trash after this patch. I think this is the kind of stuff that should be available for whatever ends up being the currency of the year.

    There's been a lot of trial and error for the sake of trying to please folks and it's generally gone unappreciated. I, for one, appreciate the effort. This is an adventure game and they took something that wasn't really meant to stand on its own do so because enough people seemed to enjoy it. They keep on supporting that as best they can. (Some will try and call me a paid shill right now, but please explain my absence.) :rolleyes:

    Some think the devs don't pay much attention to crafting. I think they do and the problem is people load up all these expectations for what should be done with crafting. Just because people were able to do it as a standalone doesn't mean it should be treated equally to adventuring.

    How many years have some of us been having the same old discussions and nothing has ever really gone your way? It feels like forever. There's a reason for that and some people don't seem to want to accept that. Where has all the complaining and fussing over how people like me present opposing views gotten you? Or is this what you want to do with your time? There's a fun world out there to enjoy if you allow it to happen. Take that as a reference to the game or real life. :p It's all the same.
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  15. Meirril Well-Known Member


    I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but this is the first expansion that has come out since Domino left DBG. While Caith has been handling recipes and items for several years now, he didn't make quests. Without Domino there it appears that several devs have combined their efforts to take on what she use to do. While their efforts are appreciated, several significant changes have been made that are equally unappreciated.

    The most significant of these in my opinion is removing advanced recipes from vendors and returning them to being dropped only, the omission of Distillation recipes for this tier, and not allowing NPC harvesters to advance to PoP harvesting. Taken all together it seems like the current devs are in favor of making EQ2 more grindy and inconvenient.

    Also all of this moves us away from crafting and into adventuring whether you like it or not. Need advanced recipes? Buy it from an adventurer. Even if there is a small chance of getting them from weekly quests, its much more likely to fall into the hands of an adventurer that bothers to kill a few trash mobs. And if you buy, be prepared to pay out of the nose for some of the recipes. The kind of plat that most casual crafters don't make crafting.

    Want to make adornments? You can't take the easily obtainable powders and break them down into fragments. Nope, instead you have to farm up treasured items (which are so difficult to get in PoP that dev introduced a trash drop that transmutes like treasured items) and pray for fragments and curse when you get powder. This is stupid rare all for the sake of forcing adventurers to farm fragments to keep them grinding longer to complete their equipment. And this significantly hurts crafters because we basically can't broker adorns because we can't get adequate materials.

    And then there is crafting tax. We've gotten so use to using pony, goblin and guild harvesters to fill our harvest depots. And now...we're back to the savage days before that and the recipes call for more materials than they every have (well, not quite but close). We have to actually go out and harvest instead of just crafting. Honestly I've done my fair share of harvesting in the last 10 or so expansions, but I haven't NEEDED to harvest even a 10th as much as I do for this one. It is annoying, and its really making me enjoy EQ2 less. Maybe that explains why I'm playing other games instead?

    Anyways, from everything the devs are doing with crafting I feel its making things more tedious than I want to put up with. If crafting and indeed EQ2 is going to have a future something needs to be done to reverse this trend before the last of us give up and walk away.
    Kethryl, Soara, Carynn and 5 others like this.
  16. Alenna Well-Known Member

    Except for special recipes in other tiers we are being asked to use more materials then ever before but the devs have taken away the ability to supplement our harvesting to take care of the higher need. It now takes us days of harvesting(which btw gains us no XP at all) to get enough for a couple of hours of tradeskilling even to do the questline. You devs are not making the adventures waste days their time with a non xp gaining mechanic to do their adventuring are you no they can get right into it.




    and they should have told had the courage to tell us at the beginning that they had no intention of putting this expansion mats on the ponies and Guild harvesters when they said they would be upgraded later. We should have been told they were going to pretend to upgrade said ponies and harvesters. with a lag inducing mechanic in the case of the ponies and the illogical having the hirelings sending the employer out to do the job they the hirelings were hired for that definitely was not an upgrade no matter how you spin it.

    What the devs have done to crafters is make them feel as if they have had one slap in the face after another. If that was not their intention then they need to take a step back and see why we feel that way.
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  17. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    In retrospect, I think one of the frustrations most of us have is the lack of consistency in the xpac about not just what's available to craft, but who's doing it. The various pots are worthless; for example, power draining is intense, yet today's pots barely restore enough power to move the bar. And then, they're all on the same timer. And don't get me started on why making shields got moved from an armorer to a weaponsmith after all these years. I mean seriously, what logic train are you riding that even begins to make sense of that? Arrows made by weaponsmith and not a woodworker--as both examples have been for many years. That's like buying a car and finding the controls to your audio system firmly implanted between the back seats, haha.
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  18. Earar Well-Known Member

    there's not much use of crafting.

    TS has no use endgame. even more now that everybody need to be lvl 110 (so no more trading either)
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  19. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    Crafting still has some value. Can't tell you how many sets of MC armor I've made across all lines. Not counting bows, crossbows, arrows, etc. Pots/poisons have greatly diminished in value/use however. Tinkered/temp adorns are also useful. Guess it depends on what crafting you're doing and for whom.
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  20. Finora Well-Known Member


    Speaking as a crafter, I don't have a problem with only having a few recipes. The main problem with weaponsmith and woodworker is the weapons they make are pretty much garbage. They have been pretty much garbage for years. The recipes they have are pretty much pointless. The weapons they make have been next useless since treasured items disappeared from the loot tables at higher levels. Lumping classes together isn't going to fix that.


    Rather than trying to change the whole crafting system and lump multiple classes together (which imo would be annoying to long time crafters and probably difficult coding wise for the devs), they should do something to make the classes desirable.

    Give weaponsmiths and woodworkers (and armorers, tailors and jewelcrafters while they are at it) recipes to directly upgrade the dropped items we get via commission.

    Heck, how about actually making the gear they make worth equipping. They even mucked armorer's over this expansion giving away a crate of gear right as you zone in. Who needs crafted? By the time crafters had harvested enough to get harvests to level, people had leveled past any need for the gear they could make and gained better.

    I did make one set of mastercrafted (armor and jewelry, no weapons of course) a couple of weeks into PoP for a fellow, but it's really not needed.



    Crafting was a playstyle of it's on from day one. There weren't much in the way of crafting quests until later yes, but crafting was it's on beast in the old days and was NEEDED. The actual storyline of the crafting quests are pretty good IMO this expansion, it's some of the tedious mechanics and meh rewards for non-high level adventurer crafters that most of us are unhappy with.
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