Deathtouching non fighters

So to paraphrase, you don't give a crap as long as it doesn't affect your class.

People love to say Daybreak are ruining this game, but the community is just as responsible when instead of banding together to try and solve the tank problem they'd rather completely marginalize them. At this point I hope they keep the DT mechanic out of spite.

exactly

ruin the game if u want as long as I can do what I want

heroic bosses this expansion are carebears, and trust me.. a BL can ward a whole hell of a lot better than a druid / cleric (thus heal) - what heroic bosses have death curses? have death detriments that potions cant remove? - what actual buffs from a healer matter?, you missed the entire point, im sayin a BL can do the job that makes real healers useless in heroics as per your logic.

people want a tank in the group, they simply do not care if its a fighter or a dps doing the job and now that tiny pool of people willing to tank is even smaller - this is the problem we are fighting.

not every dps is willing to tank, it takes effort and gear, and willingness. DPS tanks filled a void where actual tanks were not present, now they cannot fill that void and must look for another player to do their dailies if they had a niche group or a partner to play with. - this is simply not acceptable to normal people with limited time.

but those groups actually contained a tank yes? a class willing and able to do the job of holding threat off others and taking hits to the face. why would they want/need a second one? you seem to be missing the point as well.

now those groups must contain a fighter so when they put together a group thats one less fighter from the pool of heroics per day,

more heroic groups per day = happier healthier server

and as one of those people forming groups on AB did i not say "accepting warm bodies" because - hehe as rainmare pointed out i was one of them 2 billion dps + i can tank anything (except teris) dps classes =P runs with 3 fighters was fun too - see who could hold aggro off me the longest ! (which were alts just gettin their experts done mains formed their own groups with exceptions of time limited people)

what is going to burn people later in this expansion because of this change is when you want to collect your shinies on your own by solo/moloing your heroics, but unless yer a fighter thats not happenin.

Tank problem? Or Fighter problem?

Since the two are drastically different.

DT effectively helps the Fighter problem, by band-aid "Fixing" it so they are REQUIRED. Not wanted, not preferred, but downright necessary. This means that you're putting people's preference for their class up against their want to actually do something in the game (Fun fact: All day today, I've been seeing 5/6 groups waiting for a tank...)

DT effectively WORSENS the Tank problem, by limiting the number of potential tanks out there, by the nature of making it so that some people's mains, who may have been used for tanking in previous expacs, are no longer viable. It means that a geared up DPS can't quickly go help a friend gear up by running some of the easier content as a non-Fighter Tank and they would instead have to actually find a Fighter irregardless.

Also on the point of "Ruining" the game...

Allowing non-Fighter tanks won't "Ruin" the game. Not on its own.

Only if coupled with Wards being totally bonkers and thus massively reducing the defensive requirements of a "Tank" by being so ridiculously high that they won't break ever, so even Joe McGlassCannonFace can effectively "Tank" things through sheer damage output + stupid Wards. THAT'S when "Tank" classes such as Fighters and Swashy's get left in the dust, when you can literally go a T1 DPS and do pretty much full DPS and "Tank" things.

There should ideally be a trade off of damage for non-Fighter tanks, one that will push them down to being on par with actual Fighters (Give or take some nuances of difference between them. Like how most Fighters get a bunch of defensive CD's to use, while SK's and Scouts tend to get fewer to rely on)

But this generally comes back to a Wards are stupid thing (Rather than a Tank thing)

Fighters ARE TANKS. that is their ONLY VIABLE ROLE in the game. they don't have a back up role. they don't have a backup position they can fill. if a fighter isn't tanking, he's not in the group. period. and that was the problem. 8 classes completely worthless because your scouts and mages that could tank (without wards too, by the by) and still put out billions in damage.

So to Farin, no, those groups don't contain a 'tank' they contain a 'dps' that can ALSO tank. Fighters are the only 'Tanks' in Eq2. that's the only role they have. so it';s both a tank and a fighter problem, because fighters are the only 'real' tanks. that's our job. So now you got a situation where most those tanks gave up, and rolled new classes. so now that they are trying to bring the fighters back, your finding that you having your cake and eatting it to is being forcibly removed, and it's going to hurt a bit until those that gave up thier tanks, might actually want to bring them back now that they are needed.

I play a SK, did in EQ1 and I do here. But I hated tanking. Tried to tank in late velious as I leveled but was constantly told "No thanks, we want a REAL tank (ie Warrior only)" so I had to solo. SoL came out and after a bit, it was discovered that SKs and paladins, though not quite as durable as Warriors, had much better agro control. But I was still leveling up and so was too low level to get into groups. By the time I was able to powerful enough, I had no interest in tanking for those same people who didn't want me before. So I continued to solo. Slow, yes. Painful, yes but at least no one would complain that I wasn't a REAL tank.

I still have that attitude to this day. I REFUSE to tank for strangers. Played WoW and was leveling up a holy paladin (so more healer than tank). In a random group for a dungeon. They tried to kick me for low dps until the tank reminded them I was the HEALER! No one had died and I was doing decent damage on the mobs. After a few more groups like that I gave up on her and on randumb players. Now EQ2 is not as caustic as WoW, but I don't like being insulted or ridiculed. So I am in a casual RP guild that lets me play how I want. So I'm a platemail wearing, sub-par Warlock who doesn't get noticed by the mobs easily as I am killing them all at the same time. We have fun and don't worry about groups looking for a tank. I don't even have LFG channel active. I have the tools on my bars to grab agro if needed, but I don't have tanking gear, not really. I let the real tanks I ran with get it until they didn't need it and then I greeded like everyone else in the group.

I am sorry there are problems with tanks being needed. I hope it gets sorted out eventually. Either way, I wont be tanking for strangers. Too many ranDUMB players for me to enjoy that these days.

Yea, but that's not what's being asked for is it? What's being requested is the removal of the DT mechanic, but oh please leave everything else as is. Let us continue to tank while doing far more dps than a real tank class can do. Because that obviously doesn't create a glaring problem for one of the four archetypes in game!

Like I said, if the community got together and demanded a proper fix for fighters and tanking the game would be far better off. But instead you've got people being selfish trying to preserve their status at the expense of others.

Or rather for the well being of the game, For the past year people have shelved their fighter tanks, and mained and spent however much daybreak cash and time on their other toons. Those people have been tanking with a non conventional class and it's worked well enough, Now a good portion of the pool of players willing to tank have been cut, and the LFG channel has showed how lacking the PUGs are. In the start of KA There was nearly non stop spam in that channel LFM x players. Now it's LF1M fighter for an hour before people give up and log out or go do solos.

That's not healthy for the game

i could not have said it better. except those people are not going to do solos, they're gonna go do something else that they consider fun. - thats what i would do at least actually booted up STO or replayed xenoverse or whatever instead of leading a group of pugs through dungeons.

if a class can hold aggro and not die they can call themselves a tank and you're not really seeing the issues nor do you understand why tanks quit in the first place that caused this void. let me explain it for you.

start of KA, people runnin siglines getting their ascended abilities - people learnin the dungeons. collectin gear, the good heroic stuff was rare, the 1k potency jewlery. not all fighters had this. or won the rolls for them when they dropped, a big discrepancy appeared between main tanks, and alt tanks. this got even more askewed with casual mains vs elite mains. come around February when everyones mains started getting their epic 2.0 (after the purple adorn nerfs) you started hearing about tanks quitting because they were absolutely unable to hold aggro off even budding dps - i mean how many fighters actually picked geomancer or thaumaturge as their first ascended while all the dps picked up ethereal, suddenly tanks started dropping off the lfg chart - because bosses only lived about 10 seconds tanks couldnt hold aggro anyway and that was a huge detriment to the casuals playing them. the elites had no issues at all. i mean people dreaded a raid conj in their group if the tank was even the slightest bit unconfident in their threat management.

people stopped playing fighters because they were stressfull, not fun, and did not have the tools to do their job well. NOT because of people like me that took up the mantle and filled the damn void please understand this gninja if you even read this post anymore.

TANKS and AGGRO are fixed in this expansion with your silent buffs and nerfs that are not shown to the public. Just announce this and take out the DTs so we call can do our heroics in peace - If you did not know. mobs in PoP reduce your potency before damage - this does not effect taunt damage as far as i can tell. a fighter doing half my dps does more threat than me when i am actually trying to rip off them (for testing purposes of course)

and just so we're clear.. theres 2 types death touches. remove them both pritty please.
as for the selfishness comments - this change effects all non fighters in the game - only fighters can solo for their heroic shinies - only fighters can deuo instances for rare drops. only fighters can do anything on their own now screw all of your mains or how much gear. $$ devotion or desire to play a non fighter class.

maybe i dont want to box a fighter, maybe i wanna take a third pug ever think of that? god im so selfish. all them players i helped last expansion shoulda charged them for all the epic 2.0 kills. >.>

Well, note that I've also mentioned I'd like to see Fighters be viable in the DPS role.

Heck, if I was a Fighter main, I'd have made a thread (Or multiple threads) asking to be made more relevant, asking for viable DPS roles and heck, I might even argue for a Healer role for Paladins and maybe even Monks.

Right now, no it's not being asked for.

However, as long as DT remains, then it gives DBG the licence to ignore the issue because they've "Fixed" it. They literally don't have to do anything else, 'cause they made Fighters "Relevant" and curbed the issue of "DPS Tanks" right?

I assure you, the second they drop DT, I'll be right here with a thread trying to ask for Tanking parity. With the core of the argument being that a non-Tank that wants to Tank will have to give up their whole DPS advantage (Within reason, again due to threat and utility differences) in order to perform the role.

I've already gone down in mentioning I'm in favour of un-breaking heals (Albeit in a different thread... I believe it's one in the Priest sub-forums about max health pools) which would go a long way towards making it less viable to just play a regular DPS and "Tank" by the nature of being kept alive entirely by broken heals.

As I say, I would make threads about making Fighters more interesting, however, as someone who doesn't Main Fighters (Because they're not that fun for me) I've not really been inclined to do so. Though, if they persist in keeping DT, I may have to do so (Especially since it seems that Fighter mains don't seem to care enough to make threads as far as I can tell... I don't recall seeing any, at least here on the forums. Heck, the only Fighter mains I've really noticed have been in this thread where they are whining about how useless they've been and how nothing has been done about it...) since I do enjoy the game and I do like to Tank and so if my only option is to play a specific class, then I'll at least try to see if I can get some love over to them to make them more appealing both for myself, but also for the population as a whole.

Fairin, i don’t get and never have that « tanks can’t hold aggro » stuff in heroics

I started late KA and leveled up my bruiser and got my epic 2 in march. And i was able to hold aggro just fine.

Sure, sometimes u lose it and sometimes u fight for it. Sometimes a dps pulls and true, if not enough pot u may struggle a bit. But most of the time I did. And I didn’t have much potency. Stayed at 10-12k for a while till i finished epic 2 and got to 16k.

When i read it, almost feels like mermut statement « if somebody in my group dies, i cannot solo heal ». Here it’s « if i lose agro once, means i cannot tank ». That’s not the real reason I’m sure. But fighters/tanks were always rare and the archetype being unfun AND no future or raid potential for them, some left or swapped.
Plus KA wasn’t alt friendly. So why put all that work on an alt u won’t play ?


Still, fairin and rainmare are both right. A tank is someone who can hold aggro and keep mobs on him and take hits. And EQ2 just allow that with some AAs and mitigation gear/reforge to allow any class to tank. Sometimes better than fighters because their damage output is far greater than fighters.
BUT in EQ2 the natural and true tanks are fighters. And rogues to a lesser extent. They are the only ones with the real tools to tank. Thouh as seen, not necessary.
The question is always the same. Exactly the same as with T1-3 dps. What is DBG position ? Who is tank, who isn’t ? Who is T1 dps ? Who is healer ? Who is support ?

Daybreak allowed non fighters to become tanks, fine ! But now it seems they decided to go back to the okd ways. Already seen that in PG.

Guess we’d need something official.

Coz right now on this thread u all just repeat what you’ve already said. All think you’re right and it’s wasted time.

DBG move is to keep fighters relevant, force people to bring one to tank coz they are an endangered species. But their change is just making more problems than solving them.
Without DT fighters would still run heroics. A lot run guild groups anyway. And non fighter could do what fairin does. It doesn’t hurt fighters anyway.

The big stuff is class balance. Is ..ok make non fighters able to tank, so many fighters be able to have another true role. Dps, healer, support !

And please DBG, stop making decisions like that. It just hurts everyone in the end.

There should be another reason to bring fighters to a group.

Obviously I missed the memo. I was trying during KA to get my SK tank all set. Then realized aggro problem. Decided I didn't need the headache and decided to just blow stuff up with a mage. That said, a lot of things in this game are a matter of dedication. If I'd dedicated myself to my SK it might have taken longer, the Epic 2 for fighters bear-ish. But I bet it would've worked out. Do something long enough in EQ2 and you'll have your moment. I even had my moment with a Swashy. And that was misery with all the dps doom and gloom about 4 years ago. Look at them now. Warlocks got a much overdue 20% dps boost and I've seen a series of "X takes possession of Death's Grip" in the server announcements. There's an element of fashion happening here. In 6 months to a year, everyone will say "too many tanks."

We need the class balance we were promised by Kander. No amount of quick fixes is going to resolve this problem.

Anybody who says the tank situation or any other class for that matter is fine, frankly is not fully adept at understanding how this game works.

We have major imbalances for a long time now. Instead of fixing that we are getting cash grabs and fluff stats/spells to shift our focus away from the main problem.

If they want to keep tanks in a traditional role then stop bolstering fighter dps across all classes and put their stats on a tank only stat.

If they want to adopt the more modern approach of mmorpg's where everybody can tank/heal etc. Then make it so.

Stop fiddling with the core game mechanics and restore some order in 2018. I know it will be hard but players en masse will be more than happy to not see the wafer thin content in next game update and see major overhauls to each class. I would rather pay for something like that than for the blatant cash grab pre-orders.

#Kander'sCandor2018

Problem only Kander promises us these classes Balance is a year and nothing has happened, they just can not change what they have done wrong and the sins bucks we are customers where pay unfortunately.

And to fix everything they would have to go down for days or weeks and they are not ready to do that and try to make up for it because the money they spend on Eq2 is not reserved for the game but for other games that are still under daybreak

unfortunately it looks like that.

Here would have belonged to a company that is also interested in the players and wants to continue to develop the game, not one that is fixed only on the money of others and whose players are anything but worth what to look. I think so that Kander and Gninja would like to change something or just want their hands are tied and they get because all the frustration of the players base from time to time, because man does not say what these upper gentlemen even think how to go on.

If tanks could be bothered to form up groups there would be no issue with tanks not getting groups, and there would be no special hold my hand mechanic in the game that guarantees a tank never has to take the lead on forming up a group.

As long as they remove any scripts that require a healer to cure curses etc they can remove this fighter requirement. Why have a healer in the group when you can have 6 dps you feel me? Why even have scripts, cant every fight be a dps check too? Its the way I like to play and therefore if I shout the loudest, Daybreak should give in and make it so because my opinion matters the most

Nice satire, unfortunately you miss the greater meaning behind it all.

and a group of 6 dps turns zones inside out atm >: )

The same can be said of literally every class. I guess no class balancing is needed afterall. Hear that swashies? Just start the group, problem solved!

They did try to give us a viable DPS role, remember? it was called Reckless. and the second we started putting out actual DPS numbers, the DPS classes threw an absolute fit and it got nerfed into oblivion. using, amusingly, the exact same argument fighters are using now as to why our archtype got shelved.

a tank that can dps like a scout!? Blasphemy! nerf that crap right now!

then reckless got nerfed.

then the tanks said, DPSing scouts AND mages that can tank!? Nerf that now!

adn those same classes now are going Nerf me? what are you crazy? it'll hurt the game too much to do that!

Yeah, and if I was a Fighter main, I'd be making threads to try and get Reckless back.

Instead of sitting around silently waiting to whine about how useless my class is on a thread that's not actually about trying to make Fighters better...

I mean, imagine if you will, Fighters getting Reckless back, meanwhile Scouts get a similar boost to their defensive stances that allows them to tank (Sans Bestlords who can instead take on the healer role with their defensive stance) and Mages get... Something nifty... (I don't know what... Not a Mage main). At the same time, boosting up Priest stances to give them more potential for DPS roles too.

Then no-one has reason to complain about "Oh X class can do 2 things!! QQ", since everyone would then technically be able to build towards at least 2 roles.

If you really want, you can even tune things so that some classes are better at some things than others.

I.e. Rogues are better than Predators at converting into Tanks (But Predators are naturally higher DPS anyway)

SK's, Bruisers and Zerkers would have more affinity for going DPS, while Guards, Monks and Pally's have more threat and defense and thus would be the more forgiving Tanks.

Etc.

Though, part of this would still have to rely on healing not being so dumb, or you'll just see DPS built Fighters being the "Tanks" like everyone seems to be moaning about with non-Fighter tanks (But I guess they'll stop complaining since they're probably not against DPS that are tanking, but just against DPS that aren't Fighters that are tanking )