To be fair, this is sort of a reason why Tanks aren't played so much (Well, one reason, there's a bunch of others too) When DPS are dynamically trying to maximize DPS output, while also managing threat (As well as normal in fight mechanics) it creates a very interesting role. Meanwhile, for Tanks... There's not a whole lot you can really do. You push out maximum TPS and then... Hope that's enough. Maybe you try for more DPS (Though, that tends to be part and parcel of actually getting max TPS) but otherwise you're just there spamming your optimized rotation 24/7 (It's why forced tank swaps and adds are popular mechanics for raids, to try and make things somewhat interesting for the tank(s)). If you lose aggro, well, that sucks. 'cause your taunts are already part of your rotation anyway so those don't help (While DPS might have some big de-taunts they can use) If only Tanks were more interesting to play, people would play them more often... But no, right now, I'd prefer to tank on my Swashy over my SK, because at least my Swashy is entertaining when trying to weave in conditional skills (Both Flanking and Stealth requirement ones)... As opposed to SK who is just "Stand there and press the skills with biggest numbers!" (This, and for some reason, most Fighter skills have like 5 year reuse times... Makes them feel extra slow and boring on top of being kind of low damage too...) I mean, I recall a period of time in WoW, where threat was a thing (Before they boosted all tanks threat output by 100% and then later gave all the big alpha strike classes 100% threat transfer skills), but you didn't have your taunts as part of your rotation. This meant that for the most part, you'd be pushing out your standard rotations, but you'd have to react to things like a DPS getting a lucky crit (Or Windfury proc) that would burst really hard and likely rip aggro, so you'd taunt the mob back ASAP. Meaning that aggro management was, for the most part, in control of the tank. (Of course, it also helped that there was also a divide between "Optimal Damage" skills and "Optimal Threat" skills so you'd mix things up depending on how the fight was going)
agreed, minus hate adorns are a waste. hatemod can be reforged, no one should bother specing for it or wasting a buff for it. - it is very -veryvery easy to cap. month into the expac soon, can we do the zones like we want ? you know. with who we want in our groups? that'd be swell. judge a man in power by what they do while in power. : when i had the power to tank i helped anyone. did everyones 2.0 fights when they couldn't find tanks for it, ran so many heroic zones for tanks that were undergeared for content. don't know how many priests i helped in GD... now the people in power decided i shouldn't do that anymore based on my class i should just stick to being a subpar dps. i have a dream.. and that dream is to play the game...
we all have dreams ... two of mine are .. that my bruiser could be something else than a lesser copy of the monk and that my warden could outheal a beastlord in spiritual
Coming from the Isle of Refuge server, I main a non conventional tank class. I've geared myself with mitigation gear that's offered in the game, reforged into hate mod, and so far I can withstand hits well enough, until named is "Looking for a fighter". Then stuff hits the fan and the game ceases to be interesting, Cannot find another route against the mechanics that Gninja himself said he doesn't care how we do it so long as we aren't using third party programs to bypass; This goes directly against Gninja's statement since you have only one option to bypass this fighter check, and that is to bring a fighter. So far my only options on this quiet server are to do solos until a "Real tank" has logged on to bypass a script, or to play a class that I've never really held interests in. Why has the option of mitigation gear been offered to all archtypes when only one set can utilize it? This game has always given out options throughout over a decade of its standing, Why mitigate against fun now?
because everything is out of control ? because class balance is out of wack ? because right now healers are only usefull coz of the cures and fighters coz of the deathtouch. I'm sure otherwise you could go with necro/beastlord/troub ... be able to heal/tank anything as long as they haven't done this "class balance" ... it's a mess. Yeah ... the mitigation gear gives more options, the hate mod reforge also. now u can have hybrid group setups and it works. But think that if a class' secondary or 3rd or even 4rth job is as good as another class' primary role ... then it means the second class has become obsolete. and u all talk about mitigating fun ... but do u think it's fun for people playing those way to become obsolete classes ? do u think it's fun for chanters to have their CC be irrelevant and their mana regen outparse by other classes ? or tanks feeling they are outclasses by scouts/mages ? that they cannot even parse them while they can tank with proper gear and reforge ? or think that some DPS classes can outheal healers ? I don't think it's fun at all. those deathtouches and curses shouldn't be the only reasons u bring tanks/healers ... I totally agree but right now .. except for raids (and even so) they almost could remove those classes without those mecanics ... sad reality
so you understand that being forced to bring specific classes is wrong when a hybrid setup could get the job done? now those hybrid setups cannot work and must take a fighter with them. as for obsolete classes - i still see necros and dirges runnin around... - theres still that one guy that plays a monk i swore i saw a coercer the other day the paladin mythical still hasnt been disco'd on our server to my knowledge.. poor things... they're not obsolete, they're extinct, how can we bring extinct classes to heroics if there are none? - this is the problem So here it is from my point of view with the idea that tanks form groups because the otherway around leads to 2 hours of lfg and the group breaks up. AB we have 0 paladins that i know of that run heroics, 3 shadowknights 0 brusiers. 1 monk that may run with a single pug, at least 2 guardians. and 1 zerker. (again.. that i know of and have seen , i don't do weekends or run 24/7) so having 7 groups of heroics - majority of these aren't gonna be pugs but guildies and raiders. there needs to be a solution, and that solution is to stop this nonsense and let us play the game. what we are saying : we want to play the game what you are saying : you should play the game like this with these classes playing with you. our problems : those classes aren't very common their answer : make those classes a requirement to do anything. people that don't have a problem with it - fighters / people that play with fighters as a team / static group / don't do heroics anyway, which btw, are the bread and butter of this expansion. people that have a problem with it : the vast majority that do not have the luxury of having a fighter friend or playing one. OR play at very odd hours where the likelyhood of forming a full normal group is out of the question our solution : complain about it because its wrong to segregate tanks based on archetype their solution : shoulda brought a fighter along. whats going to happen : people are gonna find time for other things rather than sit in LFG whats not going to happen : people main switching to fighters to progress with their friends. (doing the fighter 2.0, running 1500 solo pg's, farming for 35 resolve relic pieces)
You mean like how my Swashy is obsolete because it's stuck as a T2 DPS, that doesn't have the utility of a Brig and now can no longer be played as a Tank? Not to mention, you can do stuff to make that second class appealing. Like, I wouldn't give a damn if my class can only do 1 thing, so long as I can actually do that 1 thing and have fun doing so (For example, if Swashy's became pure tanks like say a Paladin, I'd not care as I'd just play my Swashy as a Tank. If I wanted to DPS/Heal/Supp? Then I'd roll an alt that I find fun in the respective role) It's worth noting that from the start of this thread I've also been a proponent of not only allowing Fighters to DPS, but also to bring the taunt-bot Fighters up to snuff with the more aggressive tanks (Through a proposed Threat = Damage Amp mechanic... Which would also make the role a bit more interesting since there would be benefits for going as hard on TPS as possible rather than the usual binary system of "Is it hitting my face? Yes or No?") It's only not fun because they have been trying to shoehorn classes into specific roles. Instead of opening up freedom of choice. Like, some classes are set up in a way that facilitates dual roles (Fighters have Subtle Strikes that detaunts, changes some taunts into detaunts and takes them off the "Fighter" tag for umbrella threat effects, Priests have their DPS stance that weakens healing and some have additional similar things (Yaulp/Exorcise), Scouts have defensive stances and various shades of aggro control (Notably Rogues whom have taunts and threat increases throughout their kit)) While some roles can be geared for - Tanks can be made via using mitigation gear, threat mods and the like (Because again, all you need from a Tank is someone to stay alive and meet the binary threat requirement...). DPS can be made via using well... Offensive stats and equipment (I.e. No shield) But honestly, is putting in such mechanics REALLY the best way to go about stuff? Like "Look at all this shiny stuff you can play with. But you're doing it wrong so here's a script that nullifies your entire character. Have fun." is not all that great a design. As opposed to you know, actually making the "Outclassed" Tanks/Healers fun to play? Like seriously, that's THE primary reason why feeling "Outclassed" by other classes is an issue (Outside maybe some niche scenarios like spots within a hardcore raiding guild that would prefer more flexible classes to be played), is that if people don't enjoy their class for the role they wanna fill, they'll swap over to the more entertaining class for that role - In this case, it's Fighters dropping their toons to play a DPS and getting tank gear to tank with...
still I don't get why some people aren't more opportunistic. I mean .. there are ways to PuG easilly, with a fighter alt. But NO .. people are so stubborn .. they don't want to ! especially in an xpac where having at least an OK geared alt is easy and if you like to tank ... why didn't u ever rolled a fighter alt ? Fighters are also fun to play but no, u just stick your way and devs stick to theirs ... just a pissing contest. Where just going with the flow and taking advantage of that could be so easy.
and why are they extinct? because for that last 3 expansions, they haven't been needed, at all, for virtually anything. you need a couple for your raid force, maybe a couple to run your guildies through experts for a couple weeks. after that, raiding in the only place they are needed, or wanted. the 'archtype' of tank was sidelined to 'level up and gear up from your friends taking pity on you, and then hope for a raid tank spot cause that's all your going to get to do after'. it isn't like it's just 1 or 2 tanks are kinda 'obsolete' it's the entire dang archtype. no tank put out the dps of these DPS/Tank mage and scouts, they don't even put out the dps of the bards and chanters. so peopel refused to bring them along. you'd only slow them down, after all. So now it's set up to punish you for not having an actual tank. which means the tanks will be wanted again. which means maybe, some of those guys that in the last 3 years shelved their tanks into alt status might dust them off once they actually are needed for something again. it is likely to be a bit of a hard road finding a tank, trying to bring the archtype back from the brink of 'extinction'? no doubt. hell might just take a hlaf a year or more, or maybe even a couple expansions. that's what happens when you completely marginalize an archtype for a couple or so years. you gotta rebuild that player pool. so yeah, they are 'forcing you' to bring along a tank. they are making an effort to have that player pool come back, but making them needed. not just wanted, but damn needed. I for one am pleased with it, might not be thrilled on how they are trying to do it, but honestly I can't see any other way of doing it other then making scripts NEED a fighter. or the mage/scout DPS Tankers will just work around it.
It's not about how "Easy" it is to PuG with a Fighter alt, but the fact that instead of a using character whom you may have dedicated to be a non-Fighter Tank because their base kits combined with the freedom of choice of their tanking AA's and options for gear, you HAVE to make and then use that Fighter alt (The fact of needing to use an alt also means you haven't magically conjured up a bunch of Fighter mains too). Which isn't very "Opportunistic". It's just what's required now. Debatable. I have Fighter alts. I don't find them that fun to play. Mostly because solo is kind of really slow and quite dull. With the exception of maybe SK 'cause they can kick out a fair bit of damage. Good thing that's changed. Now it's all about using a Fighter alt to run through heroics/experts and then taking pity on the Fighter main friend to level up and gear up so they can hope to get a Raid Tank spot 'cause that's all they're gonna get after... Oh wait! That's the nature of Tanks. They have limited spots in end-game content. Once you get raid ready, there's literally nothing for you besides hoping to fill the 1-2 spots in a Raid that are reserved for Tanks. This applies to ALL MMO's. It's just how it goes. 10, 15, 20, 25, 40 player raids... 1-2 Tank spots... All that's changed is that the number of "Tank" mains has been reduced due to banning the use of non-Fighter tanks and instead its more of just getting someone to bring their Fighter alt so the group can get through non-Raid content...
you sound a whole lot like Gninja, so i'll refute your argument with logic - which has already been posted earlier in this thread... Bad reputation aside (ninja looters ect) i will safely say no group looking for a tank would ever turn down the first fighter that took up the flag to say i'll do that job. this whole " scouts / mages doing a job a tank could do makes fighters worthless is illogical and doesn't actually happen. just think about what you said for 5 seconds. "group looking for tank 5/6" *random paladin sends a message* no thankx we're lookin for a dps tank..." - you really think this happens? we - as non fighter tanks, do not take away the jobs a fighter could do, there are simply not enough fighters to go around. , now when we actively create groups we have to find a fighter making it that much harder for others to get groups going because as i stated before, i've only seen 7 names in chat saying they are fighters lfg, or making a group. do you really think this is a good idea on such low population servers? do you (or anyone) really have time to main a tank and your class you play in raid? - do you even raid? do you even heroic? do you even pug? another issue is the loot one, when you play a fighter instead of your main just so you can get a group, you will get a box of loot for fighters, or NO - TRADE stones and whatnot. notrade crafting stuff... actively punishing you if you tanked for your friends, this is not acceptable. what about the people that play super late at night? when all the tanks have gone to bed? no groups for you guys! shoulda brought a fighter! as for punishing us for not bringing a fighter.. no its not punishing us its making us want to play something else. making us wonder why we play the game at all, to sit in lfg chat? to reroll a main we strove so hard to be the best at? to play an alt just so we can do stuff? so for the rest of your argument for the change consider these counter points. so if fighters are a requirement, why aren't healers? or support? - you're aware a shadowknight and a healer (merc?) can do these dungeons 2man right? its not even all that slow with how high sk's and monks are parsing now. they do not need support or dps. why do they not get death touched for not bringing others? lets take it a step further.. lets have bosses death touch people for not bringing balanced groups.. 1 tank 1 support 1 heal and 3 dps lets go even further.. why not start DTing groups that dont have all 4 ascended classes - have bosses that only pets can damage (oh wait.. pq's) you know i do not see many people playing channelers, lets have bosses script for 'looks for a channeler" and wipe the whole group because it doesnt find one. surely that will bring the class from extinction? i believe in tank equality, that if a someone wants to tank on whatever class, and they can do the job, then they are a tank. i believe in dps equality, that if someone wants to dps on whatever class - and they can do the job, then they are a dps i believe in healer equality, that if someone wants to heal, on whatever class and they can do the job, then they are a healer now consider this, lets play what if you couldn't find a healer, but had a beastlord, and you ran your instances using pots to cure and beastlord heals to do the fights, does that suddenly mean all healers are useless and every single group out there would look for a beastlord healer instead of a defiler? your logic you (and others) have stated says yes! absolutely! healers will be gone replaced by the ultimate dps healer! how do you not see how silly this is? group 5/6 lf healer! *random priest sends tell* healer here! invite away! "sorry we're lookin for a beastlord healer! tough luck!"
Yes exactly. Fighters have limited spots. So if u want absolutely the tank spot, give fighter a real dps spot. Right now all i see in what u say in the thread is that u want butter, u want it free and u want the farmer’s wife as a bonus. Fighter is boring, fighters don’t dps ... ? Well u just said we had off stance and subtle strikes to dps, haven’t u ? So u want to tank with a fun class ... well then ask devs to make fighters fun. U also just say yourself, fighters have limited spots. That’s the whole issue. Fighters becoming obsolete sp DBG places deathtouch. Because it’s right the only way to not make them obsolete. It’s stupid ... just as is class balance right now. Nobody wants to play fighters or healers but everybody needs one. If too many fighters we are screwed because u only want one per froup, the other one doesn’t bring enough ... but if not enough people can’t group. So instead of asking to remove DT, ask to make fighters/tanks fun again ... ask fir fighters to have use outside of tanking ... and then you’ll be allowed again to tank as scouts. And during the meantime play the boring fifhter class, but at least you’ll be able to do heroics because you’ll be seeked after.
Who hasn’t experience that ? Looking for healer pst ! Warden here ! Sorry we want a shaman !! Looking for bard pst ! Dirge here ! No we want troub !! Could easily become LF spiritual stance BL. No BL .. ok take that inqui .. been too long we try to fill ...
Many Fighters don't do a lot of damage (But they CAN play a DPS role because of subtle strikes allows them to not be taunting everything out of the wazoo) while some may rely on some specific skills (Like Monks rely on Dragonfire, a level 65 skill, meaning they're pretty meh until then and when they start boosting it with bunches of AA's and Prestige) Ask devs to make fighters fun? Well, if you'd read my previous posts in this thread, you know that I have. I've asked for Fighters to become fun, able to play Tank and DPS roles AND be more balanced within themselves. Much like I'm advocating for allowing Scouts (Notably, Swashy, who is very Tank focused in their kit, like, they have very little raw DPS boosts but plenty of defensive and threat based boosts... Heck, they're more Tank orientated than SK's they just lack the precious "Fighter" tag) to be able to put some additional work into being Tanks. I've also argued similar for Priests to be able to be able to exchange more of their healing for DPS capabilities. It's only Mages that I haven't really said anything about (They don't really lend themselves to anything really... Other than maybe trying to get it so that Summoners can Tank using their stats + Tank pet or heal using Heal pet + Transference and Necro's Transfer Life) That doesn't fix Fighters becoming obsolete though. That just forces people to make a Fighter alt. The limited spots thing doesn't magically disappear, it's still only 1 tank per non-Raid and then 1-2 tanks per Raid group. Since, for the most part Fighters are limited to just Tanking (Some can do some damage, but not all) it will continue to limit them, regardless of Death Touch making them mandatory or not. You know what other possibility there is for the meantime? Playing another game. One that doesn't randomly, after 10+ years decide "Oh you can't do that thing anymore" 'cause that's always an option. To stop giving DBG money because of being forced into playing something you don't particularly like because of their decision to restrict players instead of targetting potential underlying causes of low Fighter populations (I.e. How meh they can be to play) I mean, for now, I'll stick at it. I'll stab things with my Swashy (As much as people will allow, given that most groups are looking for T1 DPS and Swashy is not that... Not even with functioning Daggerstorm...). But without tanking, or the alternative of playing one of my alt Fighters (For at least an expansion? Who knows if they'll reintroduce DT next expac...) which I find much less fun or even downright bothersome, my will to continue to play does dwindle...
Traditionally, a tank's role in the game is to hold aggro and survive while the "DPS" kill it. Fighters have always relied on DPS to generate hate along with their class specific snaps/buffs. Things branch out further as some tank classes do more dps (hence generate more hate) than others, some have better AE aggro than others and some rely on other classes to generate hate for them etc. It was working fine for most of the expansions until we saw changes in certain stats such as during the launch of ToV when the DEVs increased taunt amount to compensate for the increase in potency. It went on well for a while until we hit ToT and people started grinding potency tithe creating an immense disparity. Tanks who had ground more points were above and beyond those who did not, even when equally geared. This was the tank issue all of KA. Now, shift your focus to non-tank classes, specifically the dps classes who by default do a lot more dps than all tank classes. They also underwent a shift, higher tithe points, more inherent potency from buffs and not to forget inclusion of ascension stuff, meant the tanks simply cannot keep up with them as they do a lot less dps (again remember each tank class have different level of dps so it creates more divide on class by class bases). We also saw the elimination of auto attack dps which used to contribute more than half of the dps (i.e. half of their hate generation) for some of the tank classes. Instead tanks had to rely on snap rotation and use OP ascension stuff to keep them afloat. DEVs did realise that they created a stat imbalance monster and tried remedying it by giving everyone 50 pot points so they can all be equal, uncapped 10k potency taunt and now in PoP have added same amount of potency on tank items as on dps items (clearly absent from pre-expert zone KA). Although now the tanks are doing better than they ever did in KA but the problem of dps explosion is still there. The divide between tank classes with regards to different level of dps is still there. So if you as a tank do not know how to rotate your snaps, you will not hold aggro, period. The dps classes have now become so accustomed to not holding back and the fact you can outright bypass scripts because of initial dps spike, it begs the question, why should they hold back, especially when the game allows them to play that way? For the last couple of years, I have been a proponent of moving the dps based hate generation of tanks to either a tank only stat or an existing tank that only a tank would buff for, e.g. hate mod. Fervor applying to threat will help a lot but doubt that is going to happen. The AAs are laughable and have been for years. They could start there. I am not at all a fan of seeing a scripts where a dragon emotes: "I see a fighter!" or "I am looking for a fighter". That is not going to fix anything or restore people's confidence to roll a tank class and stick with it. If the DEVs were open to ideas, I have plenty which could alleviate a lot of the problems. I have always felt the tanks primary defensive and offensive stances were under utilised and could be modified for each fighter class so they can swap between tanking or dps roles in a group. Subtle strikes is just a lazy design. I digress, the fighter situation in this expansion has been better than what it was in perhaps the worst expansion this game has ever seen, KA. But is it all rosy and sun shine? No.
The issue is anyway larger than DT. They didn’t do what they said they would do —> class balance They just place band aids into the game It doesn’t solve anything, just create more issues. They also allow stuff ... then remove it. If they want only fighters to tank, they should remove mitigation gear and hate mod reforge and put all that into class buffs. But that’s DBG way of doing —> half the work done. So long they don’t put means into it ... everything will stay broken, and people will keep complaining. They need to take a stance on what they want for game and classes, stick to it and make proper changes. Till then there will be annoying band aids like DT (or even stuff like detect weakness)... to keep some classes relevant
except that is EXACTLY what we saw. people didn't want an actual tank, becuase the 'actual' tank job can be done by a DPS class that means that your run takes 3 minutes instead of 5. so you tanks? might as well roll an alt, we don't need you. oh except for raids. then we need 2 of you, at best. and your beastlord example is flawed, because a BL CAN"T do all the things a healer can do, and better. BLs can't cure curse. Spiritual stance healing isn't as effective as an actual healer, nor do they have all the various buffs that an actual healer has. nor do they have things like verdict. plus, even if you did have a BL as your 'Healer' a inquisitor can still buff the **** out of your scouts, can still verdict, and if you spec an Inq right they can, get this, actually put out some numbers WITHOUT sacrificing their ability to back up heal/cure/debuff/buff/verdict. in essence a 'real' healer could still fill a support role even if your 'healer' is a BL. and most groups want an actual healer so that BL can go into Feral Stance and put out a couple billion more DPS anyway. Tanks point was that is you can tank as good as I can, and DPS leagues above me, there's 0 reason for me to be there. at all. I can't fill a support or healer role, I sure as **** can't fill a dps role (even with subtle strikes/off stance/and an entire set of gear built around dps), and now I'm not needed for the Tank role. so you tell me what are the fighters supposed to do? but you don't care, because you were/are one of those '2billion dps + I can tank anything' classes.
Your argument is based on the assumption groups will actively seek a tank, and when they can't find one they'll use a dps instead. That scenario rarely if ever occurred in the latter half of KA. What actually happened is that groups didn't bother with looking for tank messages at all. A dps or support would start a group and just go straight to "looking for dps and heals". And yes, it was happening all the time on AB, even if you didn't notice it.
Currently the the pre reqs required to level up an alt fighter is Level to 110 Grind however many hundreds of solo PGs for the adorns so you have the health required, Less if you're fortunate enough to develop a group that'll endure the grind instead of playing the new expansion. Epic1.0 - And the prereqs Epic2.0 - And the prereqs The gear to actually maintain aggro unless you're a paladin Really the time to level and complete a fresh fighter tank is about 4 days of gameplay To do the proving grounds solo to obtain all of the marks of glory for the adornments? quite some time.
