Are you like a scholarly professor or something? The OP started the thread of the opinion that the P2W had become too much for him (his opinion). I stated that I didn't feel like it was before the KA xpack and gave reasons why. You are the only person in this thread who has taken the position of debating weather it is pay to win or not. So please with all the librarian speak... get back to the point of the discussion started by the OP or please move on. If you want to discuss weather or not it is a pay to win system based on facts, please by all means feel free to start that thread...
You saying it is fact does not make it so. The games are defined by the developers and the players and they are in constant flux with no real set of rules or guidelines set in stone. Your definitions are your opinions not universal established facts.
/sigh The word game has a definition, which is why I asked you to clarify your claim concerning it. A game is clearly defined within the context here. A game has rules, it has conditions, it has objectives. They do not change at the whim of the player as they player decides and this is proven by simply logging in and trying to do anything you want against the games rules. The history of games and specifically what a multi-player game is as it concerns MMOs is clearly established. These are facts. Your argument is invalid.
I will never understand why anyone cares how anyone else plays. It has no bearing on your play. You don't want those who don't do things your way in your raids anyway so whether I refuse to raid, whether I tradeskill only, whether I buy baubles that increase my level is of no consequence whatsoever to you.When you want to pay for my subscription, then you might have the right to dictate how I can play. Until then, butt out.
Oh, you've killed the t4 bosses already? Cool. This is where you see the difference in how a 'please pay your real life money' mechanic shows itself. If I was only a casual heroic player, I too wouldn't care much about trying to get to the grandmaster spells faster. But the thing is, My guild is stalled currently at most of the t3 bosses. We have killed one of them and the others, we are working towards. But really the only places my character can currently improve is through getting higher levels of the ascension skills and finally getting my tome of ascended. One of these I'll get this weekend. The others? Well since I haven't paid much into them, I won't get grandmaster in even 1 spell for at LEAST another 2 months. The guilds who are currently killing t3 regularly and have killed t4? Ask them how many grandmaster ascension spells they have. I'm pretty sure the answer for very few of them will be zero. And how do you have multiple grandmasters at this point in time? You're saying all of these people got the drops in game? Nope. Sorry. I'm not buying it. So here's my guild, currently fighting a boss that is a timed encounter. If we can only get it down to 30% in the time given, what are our options to improve in any reasonable mannter? Wait for getting the RIGHT 10 pages to drop twice and then spending millions of plat for the books? The options are so slim. So when you look at the casual heroic vs the raid crowd, you start to see the push towards paying real money more clearly. Their 'caving' as you put it was a smokescreen. 10 pages you still have to gather. It's ridiculous since you can get pages for the level 1 buff or the debuffs you never use. and they're no trade. I currently have about 4 pages total spread across 0 of the spells I actually need.
Objectives don't change at the whim of the player? Tell me, what's the main objective of a raider? How about that of a dedicated crafter? Home decorator? Collection junkie? Quest-a-holic? Objectives aren't objective, they are individual to the player. On other words, subjective.
Individual goals may change, the "game" requirements to achieve them stay the same. That is, in order for someone to achieve something, a goal they may have, they must meet the requirements of the game (ie achieving the objectives according to the rules set forth). So, for a crafter, the game is the progression and requirements of the crafting system. Instead of adventure levels, conquoring monsters, finding gear, etc... the goal becomes to collect harvests, rares, and then to level the craft to achieve various goals according to the games requirements. This is the same for home decorator (they must acquire the various rewards in game play to achieve the goal of decorating their homes with specific items). The poster I was responding to claimed that the "rules" did not matter, that those requirements changed at the whim of the player. That is incorrect as the player can not change the rules of the game as they see fit, they must operate within the confines that the developers have established for them as the game rules.
It isn't an issue of worrying about others, it is the issue that others demands have led to game systems that are less about games and more about entertainment. In a progression based game, the "point" of it is the journey in that progression. Your levels, gear, the limitations of your character within that world. For instance, how much you can carry (containers and weights), how fast you can travel, how you can travel, the various abilities you have and how your selected type of character (class and race) interact within that world, what obstacles your choices have (ports, run speed, charm, mez, feign death, stealth, etc..). I do not begrudge anyone who wants to play the game as they see fit, but... keep in mind that the bar as to the rules and difficulties of play is set very low on games that promote PTW. Not only is there easy outs through the store at every corner that conflict with the games systems, ruin the game play elements as I mentioned above, but they begin to design the entire game around that concept of play. That is, the store becomes the point of play, the game itself is designed to encourage the store by putting in content that isn't about the joy of progression (long term difficult progression with proper risk/reward), but about making that progression as monotonous as possible to encourage people to circumvent it. It stops being a game about progression (which is what RPG game systems were about), and more about marketing. So, there is nothing wrong with people playing as they will, but... those who do not want a game and are more interested in entertainment directly conflict with those who want a game. Because developers try to appeal to the lowest common denominator, to everyone, the gamer loses out and this is why many of us have lost all the games we used to enjoy over the years because instead of being games, they have become chat rooms of entertainment.
Because you and some others are operating from the belief that you can subjectively determine facts as you choose. There is a history to these words, meanings in the dictionary and personal opinion does not trump what we know to be fact. On subjective topics, sure.. where you go about how you like one flavor and I like another, sure... opinions matter, but in the case where people are trying to define something that has a logically established definition is pointless word smithing that has no logical or intelligent purpose other than for everyone to feel better about themselves for having an opinion. So, you people carry on, make up whatever meaning of words and historical accounts as you wish. The fact is all you people are doing is sitting around justifying what levels of PTW are acceptable to you and validating it with the all encompassing trump card of "because my opinion". Carry on, I am sorry to interfere with the emotionalizing of discussion. /shrug
The thread is a mess, mostly because the original premise is wrong. Level 101-110 spells will drop or be crafted as they have been in past expansions. The only difference is you'll have to upgrade every tier. You won't be able to skip Expert level. The Marketplace is 99.9% fluff and appearance gear. There are XP potions and Vitality restorers which allow you to shave off a few minutes or hours of gameplay when leveling. And you can bypass acquiring Adept, Expert, Master, and Grandmaster spells with the Marketplace, but all of these can be acquired in-game. It is absurd to compare that to Ascension spells which are insanely powerful nukes where you have two options to upgrade them: Wait 2 months Swipe a credit card Oh and the fact that some of these upgrades are required to defeat raid content. The fact that some raiders have spent upwards of $1,000 on Ascension spells to be able to continue progressing in the content is seriously wrong and in the realm of Perfect World Entertainment type Pay-to-Win. It's that simple.
That is where it always ends up. In every MMO that started FTP and stores, we warned people that this is where it would end up, that this was the natural progression of implementing such systems, that by necessity of design, content would need to be tailored to encourage store use and the games would be less about "games" and more about marketing entertainment gimmicks. At the heart of these FTP systems is the slot machine casual games where you do mundane tasks to win, are often given a lot of wins, but to truly win you need the big wins which are only obtainable through "pay" methods. Perfect World Entertainment has never hid its intent in game design, from their first games they have always been about that concept, DBG and others are just finally catching up to them. None of this is a surprise, we saw this coming years ago and it is what will kill off the industry to the point of just being just a bunch of mobile casual games for the bored and socializing.
That's where you are mistaken (imo) Let me approach from different angle of view that might make things a bit clearer EQ2 is MMORPG which does assume that although you could play solo most of the content intend to be consumed in group or big groups (raids). Ability to consume content directly depends on your ability survive within such content and contribute to group/raid in consumption of such content. Saying this allow me 1 declaimer - it is very sad and bad but grouping for heroic content in EQ2 all but dead. (Outside of static groups that running SLR type closed teams). It is possible that grouping will revived again this summer with ethereal event like it was last year but no one can tell for sure. So the end of the line is - in order to be able consume this content you must be either raider (and once progression stops ... guild die) or been well known high demand class who can preform exceptionally well in rare occasion (extremely rare occasion I'd say) of grouping. All above nowadays aren't possible without $$$ investment in your char. Lets face it - YES you could decently gear your char w/o making single step into raiding environment but guess what? it will cost you tons of plat ... So you have to buy Kronos because since AoM game do not generate any visible amount of plat. To contribute decently to the raid you need your Ascending bumped at least to the experts and again guess what? you will have to spend some $$ on buying DBC If you want edge like progression on T4 environment - well you have to have 4 person within raid force with GMed version of certain Ascending skill. Current model EXPECT from you to pay more than just "sub" in order to be able stay afloat in the game and progress.
I feel like some of your points are over generalized like having to pay in order to perform well. However, the pressure to pay is real and was not so much a part of this game until THIS expansion. And then when we look ahead to the new spells, it will be better than ascension, sure. But it still will be a pay to win situation, since those of us who choose to get the items in game will always be behind those who pay. And when the content is tuned to the point where you need the higher tiers of spells to progress..well the guilds who want progression fastest will without a doubt pay money to get there first. It's sad. I feel like the powers that be said 'ok, so we want to put out a new expansion. what is going to be our mode of making extra money? Well, we have made quite a few micro transactions through ascension and epic spells. how can we keep that extra cash flow once the ascension spells are maxed? Giving more ascension that people are already annoyed with may not be the right path...soo let's raise level cap and include new spells AND lock the spells down so you have to have each level. Even if people are able to get some of the levels in game, they will still most likely want to skip a few here and there. So money will constantly be flowing. This is not how content should be designed. We should have various fun options to purchase. Certain add ons and such. We should have a sub that provides extra benefits. But when the idea of trying to milk players becomes so apparent and takes precedence over creating the BEST most ENTERTAINING content possible...well it pushes people away.
@Captain - I am here with you on 100% DB running business - it have operational cost and need to generate revenue. I am firmly sure that controlled inflation is done by DB to stimulate Kronos flow (and they succeed at it) I have no idea how many subs EQ2 have at this moment (any numbers could be right) I know for an fact those numbers 100-1000s time smaller compare to hay days on EQ1/EQ2 (1999-2004). Sub type of business all but dead. Browsers flash type of game are winners - yeah they are primitive, yeah they do not have players at time (may be few 100k at best) but! they suck out of on average 100-300 per month from player and engine allow easy skin change every 2-3 months and dropping on market new game w/o any investment into Development and continue to milk same players base for another 2-3 months (half year if company is lucky) Saying this - I am pretty sure EQ2 still generate decent cash flow unless they go full blown P2W - where will be no room to support future game development
Sub type of business is all but dead? Interesting. From what I can find, the two most played MMOs are WoW, and FFXIV. Both of which run on subscription models. Most titles that adopted FTP, have become turn&burn casinos, that are suffering the perils of the model they embraced. The "FTP wave" that people touted, ended up being little more than a "FTP/P2W plague".
WoW is last standing relic and market have space only for so many. I did not say you can't run subs model - I am saying nowadays those game not the one that generate most and quick revenue for owners. Business model for most successful (and much more primitive) browser based flash games looks like that - you buy engine from devs team. You rent servers - that pretty much what is initial investment and operational cost. Each game lifetime (unlike EQ1 or WoW) is like 6 months but no one give a damn about it because every 3-4 month you simply re-use engine put new skin (for smallest fraction cost of the engine) and keep milking very same crown you been milked last 3 months. Investment/Revenue ratio is UUUUGE Only FTP is cheese in mouse trap - everything else is illusion. Frankly I do understand DB what they doing and where they going with P2W - can it be done better? I am sure answer is yes
What about FFXIV? The 2nd most active MMO? And for WoW to be as old as it is, and still on a subscription model, and still the industry leader in population, shows that the actual players/gamers are not against the subscription model on console/PC platforms. You touched on corporate greed and lust for a quick profit, I suspect we agree that it is the companies who are responsible for the push into FTP/P2W. It is working well for them on mobile markets (because mobile users tend to want quick entertainment, not an actual game). But on console and PC platforms, it is not playing out so well, because we tend to want an actual game.
