Yep, and I doubt doubling hate cap (+-) are enough. taunt should be hard to resist (since tank have some problem to gain melee skill now..), and lower "resist" on the several mit layer... simple solution in short time. Zezar.. Pls.. For having agro problem you should first put in the situation to have agro problem, try to hold agro again a decent conju/necro without agro transfer in grp.. Atm the only way to have stable agro is agro transfer, all other method are old school and not working very well.
a simple (probably not accurate) design of how threat works 1 damage = 1 threat hatemod is like fervor for threat every dps runs -50 hate - that has hate issues (i mean who relies on a bard / tank anyway) every tank runs 100% hategain so a dps doing 1billion damage would generate 500million hate per second a tank doing 250million damage would generate 500 million hate? do you understand? your taunt hitting for the pittance even if it had fervor. would not matter as much as your overall dps. the end. having problems holding aggro? try doing more DPS.
ROFLT ahahhaha, no. every dps run in -50... every tank in 100... lol in your dream, is rare to found a dps with -hate reforge, usualy they use troub or self buff. In theory, a tank should have self 40 hate gain.. for 100 they need a dirge and coercer. But.. with a dirge, grp don't have -hate buff. And.. just for test, on the same grp the agro remain similar, from 40hate, to 76% hate... no idea why. I'm not talking about general agro issue (troub+coercer=win), but how the threat from taunt are not scaling correct. Repeat.. i do similar Fabled zek value... something is not working right.
*stare* you mean you know dps that do not run -50 hate. and then complain about getting hate off the tank? and you know tanks that run under 100% then complain about not being able to hold threat?. what kind of mad world is this? cap - your - stats.
Because.. i don't see big difference between 40 and 100% hate mod? I only see some difference when i forgot to reforge in hate gain.. I start see difference only with a "dps" coercer, a dirge is pretty ineffective in this day, for grp. Again spike dps is pretty irrilevant. Because setup right the stats in grp is pretty.. ridiculous, since 99,99% of grp change asset every time. Because.. Taunt hit are low, i use the all the time just for habit (2 increase max hp). Monk have pure 3 taunt spell, one should hit pretty nice (2.5mil-3.5mil threat atm), Even using all line, the agro gap (from me, at 100 and the second). remain the same, hit for 100-200mil average. Again decent dps (1bilioni-2bilion in expert), without agro trasfert the situation will become very unstable. With a similar grp (healer/dps), the difference between troub/coercer and dirge/illy (or coe with low dps), is huge. And again.. I'm not talking about a general agro issue (90% solve with a decent asset), but the taunt value, and how easy can we miss the hit, specially on pull.
Great argument... expect its completely false. The threat generated by my taunts accounts for approximately HALF of all outgoing hate. So yes, fervor affecting them would actually make a very sizable impact. I would be happy to upload some ACT logs to back this up. And yes, in raid i do anywhere from 200-400 mil, depending on mob, script, duration etc. In your example, you assume that your DPS in ONLY doing 1 bil... which in most cases, your one conjy or BL or Ranger or whatever DPS class is doing 3-4 times as much. and yes, the tank DPS number is probably about right. I mean yeah, sure doing more DPS is the answer for tanks but I dont see any tanks pulling in 750m+ numbers, because thats what it would take without a hate transfer to hold if off of a good T1 DPS.
how is it completely false ? its layman terms for how eq2 threat works, explained simply. its not accurate i mentioned that. your below par on tank dps if taunts do half your threat- especally if your doing over 50m dps- calling bs i also did not mention, in my example positional drops, or transfers, to make up the dps difference for aggro. you got troubs with AV for 16s out of 90, assassins and whatnot giving their hate all add incredible amounts of threat to the tank.. not their actual taunts. AND scouts and whatnot have detaunts as well! guess how much Jack !@#$ they do? whoopie 69m dehate - i actually use evade as an encounter aggroing spell cause of the tremendous dps it does. i'm not really gonna math it out for everyone beyond the simple terms. just trust me.. taunts aren't worth a cooldown unless they do damage too- and only if that damage is good compared to something else you coulda hit that would have done more damage (and thus. threat)
I have been an end game tank in this game for the last four years as a Berserker, Paladin, and Guardian. During this time, I realized that the damage a tank puts out is more important than a regular taunt that doesn't do anything other than increase threat. Thus, I focused more on making myself more offensive than defensive as I got closer to the end game content and acquired items that converted damage into threat such as Draconic Effigy or Angry Golden Locust. Fervor is more of a hindrance than not. Focus on capping out hate mod, reuse, casting, recovery speed, and after that focus on crit bonus, and after that, it's all potency. Like Fairin, I will never cast a regular taunt unless it does damage, or if by some grace of god, I've ran out of spells to cast. What do I know though, I tank in the 2nd offense stance while I dualwield daggers.
Are you even play a tank? You have read all my post, or just the first line? Threat not really work like you posted from ToV. Should be strong influenced by strength value. And since this value drop in the current expa (for the charm), we have lose threat. On current gear we have lost melee skill to.. just for fun. Positional are irrelevant for sustain threat. If the tank don't generate enough use positional can't save the dps. Using your theory.. Tank should able to do other 1bilion sustain dps.. pretty much like a bl. Just for be more annoying, please stay in topic.. We are talking about sustain threat generated.
i have been tanking since 1999. - yes i answered your post in order. if threat does not work like i posted, then please enlighten me. - melee skills do not matter at all. (increases base auto dmg) positionals are the most important spells / abilities to dps. dropping aggro so they can do more. is kind of important if the tanks threat is not up to par. using my theory? what theory? you think i mean a tank should do 1b to hold off a 4b dps? thats what positionals and transfers are for to make up for poor tanks that can't dps. however that amount of hand holding only goes so far (and the truest test of this is on the xalgoz fight where the uh "tanks" have to hold aggro without the ability to do. anything) i have a very firm grasp on eq2 mechanics and will answer most any questions. and as i see it. i explained simply how threat works in eq2 it gets more complicated when you toss in hate transfers and positional drops, but understanding the basics is what you need to understand first. 1 damage = 1 threat hatemod is like fervor for threat. every dps runs -50 hate every tank runs 100% hategain so a dps doing 1billion damage would generate 500million hate per second a tank doing 250million damage would generate 500 million hate per second a dps doing 1 billion dps, with a 25% hate transfer on the tank would give the tank 25% of 500m - or 125m "effective hate" increasing their hategain to 625million hate persecond a troub giving a tank 50% of their groups threat (for 16 seconds out of 90) while their group is busting ascended abilities would give 50% of their burst dps x their hatemod. which would netgain the tank around (6x2b) /2 hate persecond (or 3billion) for 16 seconds. anytime a dps uses a positional detaunt drops their position on the hate chart by 1 to 3 slots, sometimes more it is ideal that everyone drops positionals (healers included) every cooldown. or right after any big hits - as decreases in positionals are more effective on the "bottom" of the t1 dps chart, than on the top. in example time elapsed 100 seconds tank 500b hate <has aggro dps1 400b hate < would have to drop 2 positionals to get to 100b hate, or down to support level (from 80% on the meter to 20%) dps2 300b hate < would drop only 1 positonal to get to 100b hate (from 60 to 20%) support 100b hate < could drop a postion to 50b hate making the t1 dps above them in hate loose MORE healer 50b hate <if dropped a positonal this one would drop to the bottom under 25bhate healer 25b hate < cant drop positions cause their hate is at the bottom so lets say. healers never drop positonals unless they have aggro, and support don't know how they work since they never have aggro issues (and this is their argument to not do it) 10 seconds later tank still at 550b hate with aggro dps1 at 340b hate < dropped to 60% but has more dps than the other one after using a positional dps2 330b - did not use a dehate cause they were at 60% support 110b hate ect. ect... do you see how complicated this !@#$ can get? . just imagine the numbers if i bothered to put in a transfer or two. or included actual numbers and class abilities! just use the simple laymans explaination please for everyones sake. dps = aggro. transfers help, positionals are important for everyone to use. a tank should never have to hit a taunt+positional unless its an emergency, or working up past the dps as the off tank.
Good to know. Yes, weapon skill increase base auto damage, but they work for avoid miss hit. I still remember during AoM, the first cloak/belt out with the expa, and tank version without weapon skill. After some time dev finaly fix, adding skill to almost every cloak (from drop, no craft). Again, without sustain agro (generated by tank+transfer), positional are irrelevant. if a tank do 100mil dps and a bl 4bilion dps, without very solid transfer positional spell can't work. If the mob hit hard, the poor bl will be dead on the first spike dps, you don't have the time for ping pong the mob with positional. Positional are of course very important for a tank, but not for create a solid agro, lol Is not very hard to understood. Oh lord... Transferts don't help, are the only way to keep the dps safe on spike, positional can't generate agro. And lol.. so.. you don't have the Fierce Roar in the dragon prestige, since you don't spam the taunt.. Or you don't put any AA point for agro.. since you only need 100% hate gain every time for be happy, good for you. For the dps.. Is.. uhm, pretty funny. I like do dps, on ToV i was in dps armor for most of the time, but.. my sustain dps atm is very low. Is around 100mil on a singol mob, no way to do 500mil, is just not possible for tank. Of course in the numer i don't put the ascension spell, because again a 2-3min fight, 2-3 spike dps don't help to have a sustain agro. Again a big dps (4-5bilion and more on spike dps), i can't do nothing for avoid my agro ripping appart, for me is easy to use DR on the dps, and hope the healer will be able to heal/ward. ps. i can easy do other 1bilion on pull, some time even more, in expert.. But my sustain dps, my classic dps remain low, very low, stupid low, for the new mit system.
you will learn how important hate transfers are while doing the script for xalgoz - where you as a tank. cannot actually do anything and all your hate must be generated from transfers alone. and dps will learn about how important stacking their de-taunts like i explained before. weaponskills softcap for accuracy is (Lvl x 5) + 100 - assuming of course monsters use the same systems as we do, unless something has changed horribly in the last few years. - so a lv 108 raid mob has 540 skill, meaning 640 weapons kills is what you need cap your auto's missing (this does not cover the 5% natural miss thats covered by accuracy - and since KA mobs are brusiers you need a about 15 more to cap that) 640 weaponskills. you have 500 naturally.. so obtaining 140 more from gear is not at all difficult.. the rest just increases your minimum damage hit. and both you and dps have ascension spike damage skills. so their spike should = your spike, so in a way it helps your sustained dps vs theirs. playstyle has much more to do with your base dps than anything imagine trying to click every ability instead of using hotkeys.. now imagine just using 50 hotkeys instead of 10 macros..
uhm, i'm pretty sure we need a little more weapon skill for the "safe zone". And... not sure if you understood the current situation, or the post we have wrote. We say A because B.. you repete % is $, but we talk about A...
I don't know why you're replying to Ansom, he clearly doesn't understand simplistic dynamic dialogue on basic elements of tanking. Ansom thinks the system won't allow a tank to hold aggro against conj without hate transfer and doesn't think it possible that proper use of rotation and stats in combination with other factors will allow a tank to circumvent his 'inability' to hold agro against conjurors without hate transfer. Personally, I don't know why he isn't using items that convert all damage done by tank top threat. When I discovered that, tanking which was already easy, became ********.
I went and got you a link for an item that'll help you not suck. https://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/3304009946 Get this item and for eighteen seconds, you won't be completely bad. It's not hard to get and if you want an easy version, go to Highkeep Castle dungeon in ToV and look for an item called Draconic Effigy. It's the same thing but for level 95. For my tank, I have 100% hate mod ontop of 200% damage to threat conversion and I never have to rely on troubs, coercer, assassins, and etc for hate transfer. Proper use of abilities, good allotment of stats, and you'll be having zero trouble in heroics against conjurors and etc etc
If you're a heroic geared/casual playing tank trying to hold aggro from top notch raid geared DPS, you have your work cut out for you. There is zero chance that DBG will be adjusting your threat to make it easy mode to hold threat in that instance. If you're a raid geared tank trying to hold aggro and failing, please consider playing a different toon, or spend the time to learn how to do it better. Not trying to be a jerk, but maybe tanking isn't what you're good at. One thing to always remember when playing EQ2, everyone is a T1 DPS class playing a secondary class also. The sooner you learn that as a tank, the easier it will be to hold aggro.
So basically the argument is: Dont change anything because tanks can go get a 3 xpac old item to swap in on pull to make then viable? I saw a mention somewhere up above of a tank being able to hold hate of a Conjy or a BL, and honestly, if you have no hate transfers the DPS will straight up win. You can time your snaps in anticipation of the DPS yanking aggro all you want, but you will run out eventually. Yes, I am purposefully trying to dumb this down because people keep referring to having idea or at least acceptable group set ups, and lets be honest, that is not always the case. It really blows my mind how some of you above are saying that taunts aren't even worth casting if they don't do damage, but the mere mention of them also being affected by fervor is all of a sudden OP. You cant have it both ways.
I also especially love it when people tat have no clue what they are talking about open their mouth. Sorry i'm not putting out 700 mil on my tank in raid, but I have a few other things to worry about outside of my DPS rotation. 1. Temps, since you know. im a tank and cant afford to die... no biggie. 2. Mob positioning. 3. Constantly intercepting the idiots that pre clicked their rising tide and other charms right as I was starting my countdown, ensuring that their biggest nukes are landing on the mob about 0.3 seconds after I pull it. 4. Communicating sprint elements if there are any relevant ones for the tanks during the fight. 5. Finally DPSing. Im sure I left something out.
Stop going into zones with top notch T1 DPS players without bringing the proper utility with you. Simple as that. This game was designed with all classes in mind. If you go into a zone with a conj, a necro, a beastlord, a ranger, a healer, and a tank and you are having problems holding aggro, the fix isn't making your taunting easier, the fix is to kick one of those DPS out for a troub/coercer/dirge etc. etc.
