[DEV] When T4 allowed to kill?

Discussion in 'Zones and Populations' started by Dzir, Feb 26, 2017.

  1. Dzir Member

    T4 in specially made reduction of incoming damage х40-50, this is done to ensure that we are "too fast" did not reach the final.
    When do you plan to give an opportunity to kill them?
    Kioske likes this.
  2. Jrox Well-Known Member

  3. Gninja Developer

    We have been watching tier4 raid bosses closely and there are guilds making progress on them. We won't be making them any easier as long as we still see guilds making progress. It is being watched closely.
  4. Dzir Member

    20% in 14 minutes on Shanaira the Prestigious it is not progression,,,,
  5. Gninja Developer

    If you do 20% one day then return another day and do 22% it absolutely is progression and that is what I am seeing for those guilds that are actively progressing on the encounters. That doesn't mean it doesn't need adjusted, but as long as I continue to see raid forces do more and more damage each time they fight it, I call that progression. If everyone stalls and can no longer damage it any lower then I will adjust but I have not seen that yet.
    Daalilama, Snikkety and Ronjah like this.
  6. Dzir Member

    i am give dps on t3 encounters - 1-1.3 bil, but on t4 i give dps 40-90 mil, why?
    epic 2.0's combat miti debuffs not working too
  7. Kioske Well-Known Member


    Translation: We do not want this content cleared within 3 months of the expansion going live, so we are gating the content to slow you down.

    Gninja, I have a legit question here: Do you see 80%+ increase of DPS potential in the current content/gear compared to where those guilds "progressing" on T4 raid bosses are currently at? Are they going to double in potency through gear progression somewhere?

    I can tell you this, from being in a guild that is just now pushing to start on T4's, if the top 10 guilds are getting these bosses to 80% now, the next 10 guilds are going to need a CoE type "bridge" expansion in order to even think about touching those bosses, a la Plane of War style. That is, if they aren't adjusted.
    captainbeatty451 likes this.
  8. Kioske Well-Known Member

    Also, the difference between 20% and 22% is simply "Today I got a myth crit on my ascension ability while rising tide was still up". It's not really progression. (Unless the strats on these encounters are extremely complex, in which case, I will gladly shut up about them).
  9. Ronjah Active Member

    What makes you think that
    1. T4 raids should not be taken as a challenge but should rather be easy like T3 ?
    2. it is a given that t4 raid instances are supposed to get cleared quickly?
    3. raid instances are supposed to be beaten by all raid forces by all means ?

    The next 10 guilds are just not prepared enough for T4 raids.
    What value or status has progression if raid content is not challenging and gets beaten in days after release?
    Daalilama likes this.
  10. Darchon6 Member

    I sincerely hope that you're joking right now. T4 raid encounters are reducing all incoming damage by a significant percentage, and it's not because of combat mitigation. If a guild of Revelations' caliber is unable to reduce Shanaira the Prestigious below 95% after 12 minutes of combat, then your encounter is broken and needs to be rectified.

    We have observed that physical based attacks are being absorbed far less than magical attacks, but it's still nowhere near enough to make the difference.

    Also, the only means of damage-related progression for guilds such as Revelations at this point is through tithe potency upgrades. Most of our dps are at 40+ tithe, and I can assure you that 100 tithe potency for every member of the guild would still prove inadequate.

    Your - encounter - needs - to - be - adjusted.

    Thank you.
    Tigerr likes this.
  11. Kioske Well-Known Member


    1. Challenges are meant to be completed, not artificially gated by adding in damage mitigations to keep guilds from completing them in a certain time frame (please see Vynie's post above)
    2. T4 raid instances should be cleared as fast as guilds can legitimately clear them without previously said artificial hindrances.
    3. If you are suggesting that this game should be geared towards only the top 10 guilds clearing content, then I'll just say that we agree to disagree. The game should be challenging, not impossible. Not only the top 240 players in the world should see this content. I could argue that maybe that people beyond the top 50 shouldn't see this content.

    I understand that the skill difference between top 10 and 11-20 is pretty big these days with how low the raiding population has become in the last few years. That doesn't mean that content should only be geared towards top 10 guilds. Maybe 2-3 encounters labeled challenge mode? Kinda like it used to be? Not whole raid zones. Certainly not 10-12 encounters.
    Meneltel likes this.
  12. Yards Well-Known Member

    Artificially gating T4 behind damage reductions seems to lack imagination, and is flat out lazy. I am all for hard fights, I like hard fights. But by simply putting a damage reduction on a mob and then calling it hard is rather dumb. In the past there were dps checks, and they were fun because you had to work hard at completing said dps checks by upping your dps. However these new dps checks are fake when the mob is taking 90% less damage. So going from doing over a billion damage on a T3 name to doing 40 or 50 million on a T4 name is not a good mechanic. Basically you can take a heroic group name, slap a 99% damage reduction on it, put an epic tag on it, and call it a T4 raid name. Is that fun?
    DoomDrake and Kioske like this.
  13. Gninja Developer

    There is a difference when some guilds that have been working on the encounter have gotten it to below 80% and as you say Revelations hasn't gotten it past 95%. That tells me that the guilds that have been working on it have figured something out in order to get it to a lower percentage than other guilds who have pulled it once or twice, deemed it too difficult or broken, and not pulled it again waiting for an adjustment. The guilds waiting for an adjustment just will not get the first kill.

    Like I said, I don't doubt it needs an adjustment... but I don't feel comfortable making that adjustment until I have seen guilds stall on progressing on the encounter or in other words they have their characters at the best they can possibly be using all tools they have available prior to the specific encounter in question and have figured out any strategic elements in the encounter. Making the adjustment now without taking that into account means guilds will kill it right away and it will not be balanced enough to actually be challenging.

    To answer the question about DPS against a tier 3 versus tier 4. Tier 4 bosses have a lot of inherent mitigation (outside of combat mitigation) They are tougher bosses and as such your dps doesn't do as much to them. That will be true for all tier 4 encounters.
    Revanu and Ronjah like this.
  14. Gninja Developer


    I assure you these are not tank-n-spank encounters with damage reduction added to them.
    Ronjah likes this.
  15. Yards Well-Known Member

    Ok sounds good to me.
  16. Kioske Well-Known Member

    I feel like it's impossible to know what to adjust if you have 5+ variables to account for. Why add all the mitigation and change DPS numbers like that, instead of just adding more HP to the encounter to account for "tougher" raid bosses? Is there a way to lower this mitigation to even things out, similar to combat mitigation? Is there a way to gauge this mitigation or even check for it? Is there a part of the strat to remove it? Otherwise it really does sound like a "tank and spank" that you just added damage reduction to and put an epic tag on it, if guilds are reaching the time limit and not failing for other script reasons.

    P.S. I appreciate you replying and having a conversation about it, Gninja :)
  17. Gninja Developer

    I have no problem having a discussion about it as long as it stays constructive. :)

    I also have no problem adjusting it but I just don't want to adjust it too much. As you can see with the tier3 bosses its much tougher to make things more difficult than easier. I don't want to have these bosses stall in progression but I also want to make sure those who are killing them feel accomplished for doing so not just they showed up put up jaw dropping dps numbers and collected loot. These encounters are technically avatar level difficulty. They are intended to take a while to figure out and I am not just talking how to damage them. If anything gets adjusted I will make sure to call it out in patch notes. These will not be "ninja" patched.

    Those who have been pulling it, want to speak up about progress being made?
  18. Yards Well-Known Member

    Maybe "Gninja" patched though. What a dumb joke I just made, I'm amazing.
    Dude, Kioske and Gninja like this.
  19. Ellimist Active Member

    I find this statement weird. You know it needs to be adjusted but don't want to.

    My question here is simple. To test the raid mobs don't you have 24 accounts with BiS gear on the toons and maxxed stats (Tithe) and then balance so the fight should be around 10mins in said gear and spec?

    This would mean that you always know on the best gear in an xpac that it should take a full raid around 10mins to complete per named. Obviously this also means that without that gear and stat it will take longer.

    I would say tithe might require two test sets though because you would need one set at max and one set at say around 50 points in each pool and maybe a third at around 25 - 30 points in each pool.

    Hence no need to adjust because you know the answer and have already balanced it.

    Am I missing something in how you setup and test the encounters? I assume you bot the encounters if you don't have the staff to test?

    If not might it not be good to get a guild to test it with some toons you assign them on a test server to check rather than have an ongoing beta on a live server?
    DoomDrake likes this.
  20. Gninja Developer

    Yes, I know it needs adjusted but I would rather adjust it once and get it right the first time than have to adjust it 15 times both increase and decrease in difficulty. Its not as easy as just loading up 24 characters hitting auto attack on the mob and taking those numbers and putting them on the buffs. I wish it were that easy... Oh, how I wish it were that easy lol!
    Luciar and Ellimist like this.